Looks cool :) Just as an FYI, you wrote in your link that Qasali Pridemage can destroy Humility, but it can't, unfortunately.Quote:
Originally Posted by 203995014
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Looks cool :) Just as an FYI, you wrote in your link that Qasali Pridemage can destroy Humility, but it can't, unfortunately.Quote:
Originally Posted by 203995014
Swan song comes in for every form of combo and miracles. When there are annoying enchantments lingering basically, or I fear a huge hoser. I've found that holding a grip of counters works wonders most of the time, but having a holistic package is better. I could see going to 4, and the 3 isn't set it stone.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zotmaster
Usually swan song is just there to make a revoker stick, but countering sneak attack/blood moon can be big. When I'm heavy on counters they expect the counter, when I'm light on them the counters blow them out.
Seems very interesting. However, I think I'd miss brainstorm and show&tell too much. Don't you?Quote:
Originally Posted by 203995014
Sure, I love using GSZ in the U/G version as well. However, It's impact is high in the first turn (Arbor) and very high later on (Titan), but during turns 3-5 I greatly prefer playing S&T. Therefore I play both (2 zenith, 3 S&T). I play the zeniths mainly as Titan's 5 and 6.Quote:
Originally Posted by 203995014
I think this approach is the only real home for GSZ, if it has one at all. Arbor, additional titans, maybe a tutorable hate bear. Everything else looks like a maverick strategy. While thrun is obviously good against fair decks, there's nothing "turbo" about him in an eldrazi deck. Even after all of that, I still find playing Oracle to be better, at a nice CMC, which gives you the hedge you were looking for in GSZ anyway..Quote:
Originally Posted by Hencules
Oracle draws a lot of power from how well it plays with Sensei's Divining Top. Set a land second card down, draw your card for a turn, play the land off your library. If you activate the Top, you've gone through the top five cards in your library in one turn. If you played a second land off your library, you've seen six. Aside from the fact that it literally accelerates you (from playing the aforementioned land), it's the fact that it allows you to go through your deck that much faster. The fact that you have to show your opponent each card you draw (even off Brainstorm or Kozilek, Butcher of Truth) is a small price to pay.Quote:
Originally Posted by 203995014
She's also pseudo-lifegain as she's one of those creatures that demands an answer, and if BUG is in your meta, Abrupt Decay won't do it.
Yup. Oracle is a real house. It helps set up going through the next phase of the game, while showing an immediate threat. Drawing two extra cards per turn is insane.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zotmaster
Took the latest list from Rock Lee to a split final yesterday at my LGS.
Not a big tournament, hence nothing relevant to report, but tinkering with the shop cards to spend my credit I got hold of a Kiora and I can't stop thinking that it may find a place in the deck. Did anybody try it already?
The +1 is definitely relevant, the -1 is gold in Turbo Eldrazi and the ultimate may provide an additional win condition if needed.
It also gets out of AD range and being a PW is generally more difficult to remove than, say, Oracle. The biggest drawback I see (a part from being very low on loyalty when cast) is the need of the double colored mana, even if in the list I played yesterday I had access to double U/G basics.
Thoughts? I'm going to try and sneak it in and check if it has any impact on the game....
Pretty sure it has been discussed only a few pages back. The general conclusion was that there are several problems with it. It initially has only 2 loyalty, making it very vulnerable (and you can't use it's '-1' twice in a row immediatly) and probably costs too much mana. The '-1' move is by far the most relevant IMO, but is outclassed by Oracle of Mul Daya if you want that effect. Oracle can be found by zenith (if you play it), and immediatly performs this effect multiple turns in a row.Quote:
Originally Posted by Raystar
I see Kiora's application, but if you want this type of effect there are better options, I think.
Needle, repeal, SDT, Revoker are all "control elements" which are generally regarded as under-costed, low investment solutions to keep your opponent from winning. The high mana cards in a control-ish deck need to be real haymakers. The other pieces bring you to that game state. For example, in miracles, a lot of cheap instants are used to bring the game to where miracles wants to be: spending big mana on Jace or Entreat the Angels, finishing the game in a huge way. Our decks do the same thing, even more so, with Titan and Eldrazi. So, if you're going to be spending the "big mana" it's better to for it to be high impact, like a titian, instead of a midrange creature that is usually at the very top of GW deck curves. Repeal is a beast because you don't need to control the battlefield with advantage at all turns, like a midrange deck needs to, but rather survive the battlefield long enough to overpower it outright. Oracle, while it is a hedge for the CMC does take some manipulation to exploit (worst case, exploit the stack abilities before removal), it is at least along the lines of big mana, big win. I win off oracle alone, probably 15% of my matches.Quote:
Originally Posted by 203995014
Also this deck is legit, congrats to him. Blind field I want this type of list:
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=66174
DIdn't see the 13th place showing. Nice call Tim. Congrats Clinton, would love a tournament report.
first off I have to give props to sauce for the list I used at the event. this was the first time ever playing the deck, I had only watched him play a couple matches. He played an o-stone over candle in the main and 4 trop over the forest, I just couldn't find a 4th trop.
Finished 7-2 on the day with losses in round 3 to elves and round 8 to DnT
4of, 4of, 4of and more 4ofs, I didnt like any list i saw combing the net, to many 2's and 3's of key cards just didnt like it. A few of my board choices were out in left field.
the forces, swan songs, BEB and elephant grass were great all day. which left me with 2 slots, i wanted to put 2 commandere for the elves match but i think that would have been to greedy, plus i couldn't fine them. so i settled on a moment's peace to maybe fog a craterhoof attack, plus discard doesnt stop it. the glen elendra, i lost to it playing storm in dc against 12 post so i thought id give it a try, did not use it all day. should have been an o-stone or a way to kill small dudes.
im not great at remembering to many details so ill explain the best i can remember
R1 vs sneak and show
G1 lead of with map on the play, he turn 2 show and tells in grisel brand. i put a land into play crack map for karakas, play pith needling naming sneak attack the following turn he scoops. im guessing he didnt find a force in 14 cards
G2 i force a sneak attack, force a jace, then he trys to breach in an emrakul, i crop rotate for karakas and he concedes
board in the 10 counterspells
1-0 R2 vs sauce playing 12 post
G1 i learned that locus check all locus on about turn 4, he thought i knew. i played a pair of titans which allowed him to cast his ulamog which blew up my eye, i bounced it a couple times the just stared throwing them into ulamog. he had a needle on top for most of the game and i had 2 in my hand and a show and tell and crop rotation. when cast his first titan, he found i and i was able to crop rotate for vezuva copying his eye get emrakul end of game.
G2 i had emrakul in my opener, he played his titan first, i followed, grabbed 2nd and 3rd cloudpost, cast emrakul the next turn after finding karakas
i thought i was going to lose for sure going in knowing he had way more knowledge of the deck, he didnt really need to get the eye game one, as he had ulamog and a titan and i had nothing relevant in play or hand. G2 i think just having emrakul in hand is what won me that game
board in a few forces
2-0 R3 vs elves
G1 he keeps a one lander with DRS, i repeal it and show and tell titan on turn 3 and thats about it for this game
G2 he leads with drs, followed by thoughtseize you SnT, double therapy my 2 tops and 2 swan song on turn 2. we both do nothing for a few turns he attacks me for a couple each turn eventually finding NO
G3 long story short he goes off with glimpse and drew both hoofs but couldnt get mana to cast it, just passes the turn. at this point all i can do is hope for a draw. i drew a top the found a map, searched up glaciam chasm and hoped for a draw. i had boarded out 2 needles and ended up just dying the next turn when he activated one deathrite 4 times from 7 life
boarded in forces and swan songs, and moments peace
2-1 R4 vs bug(non delver)
G1 played a candle on turn three, drew a ulamog which made quick work of his 2 TNN and permanents
G2 he forced and inquistioned both my tops, i preemptively needled liliana, then he played jace. gets jace up to 13, i double crop rotate to have 3 cloudpost, and top deck a ulamog to kill jace which got forced, then i found some a trop and was able to titan into emarkul a few turns later
i put 4 forces in for G2 then took them out just so i looked like a cared about what his deck was
3-1 R5 vs smallpox
G1 his only pressure was one mishra and showed a titan after getting sinkholed a couple times, and a needle on lily for insurace.
G2 he dark rituals into liliana turn 1, i follow with needle on liliana. then proceed to post, post, post, eye into emrakul
i think i boarded in forces just to catch a hymn or liliana, dont think i needed them
4-1 R6 vs belcher
G1 he probed me and said go with no land drop, so my buttholed puckered up real fast. he finally found something and made 14 goblins on turn 4. I was able to hide behind a glacial chasm for a few turns, i bounced back between 1 and 5 life between glimmer post and vesuvaing glacial chasm, but a judge thought that i was taking to long to figure out how to not die the following turn and gave me a slow play warning. a little tilted for getting a warning in this match i punt away the win, tutor up emarakul then just go straight attack with ulamog, forgetting to cast emmy.
G2 i mull to 5, titan, bog, 2 brainstorm, Fow. he goes off turn one only have the burning wish. snap force. on to game 3 basically after that, drew a top and found my land
G3 on the draw, i keep forest, karakas, glacial chasm, needle, elephant grass, brainstorm, and glimmerpost. he mulled to 6 so i figured he chances of belching me t1 were low. thankfully he just said go. i needle his belcher t1. he makes 16 goblins on turn 3. i play elephant grass an got it up to 9 CU, i just kept drawing cloudpost and glimmer post. i only saced it when i attacked with emrakul and ulamog. and by this point i had 2 needles on belcher and a hand full of counters
boarded in everything except glen elendra
5-1 R7 vs WUR delver
G1 i play cloudpost and get the oh no from my opponent. he t2 stone forges for batterskull, i needle the mystic, the next 3 turns i time walk him with repel when he tries to hit me with jitte. makes some land drops cavern in a titan and that about all for this game
G2 went pretty much the same way, he got close, he got to swing for leathal but i had the crop rotate for a glimmer void, then cast emrakul followed by ulamog
no boarding required for this match
6-1 R8 vs DnT
G1 i get double wasted and die fast
G2 turn three show in a titan and cast emrakul 2 turns later
G3 turn one i needle wasteland, he played a cannonist, i play top, by turn 3 i decide im going to show in my emmy, i needle karakas, after a few turns of getting ported and thalia i put him into play. he put a SFM into play and forgot the trigger. Now i new there was a titan on top of my library, which ended up being the right choice to put into play looking back. but he attack knocking me from 13 to 8. he had 6 lands and 8 power in play so i couldnt attack, he drew flickerwisp and i died. after lots of discussion, needling port and just putting the titan into play the just cast emrakul was the right line of play to take.
i boarded in elephant grass only i beleive
6-2 R9 vs burn
G1 show a titan gain life make mana rinse and repeat til emrakul, he was stuck on one land forever
g2 same thing, but he had land. i never got PoP, but was always was out of leather from it or had a swan song or crop rotate for chasm
board in forces BEB and 3 swan song
overall, this deck was the most fun ive had playing magic in a long time, and I normally get my fun in legacy playing ANT. My sideboarding out was all over the place, 1s and 2ofs everywhere, i boarded out bog against burn and DnT, and g3 of belcher, ulamog and candle came out alot, mostly in the counter heavy matches.
thats all i got, cant wait for Jersey. This deck just demolishes fair decks and the format is full of them right now
i think that i figure that this decks bad matchups are the mono tribal decks DnT, gobos, merfolk, and elves, i really wouldnt want to play against any, they have high and fast threat density and cheap disrution
the 12post mirror is tricky. gj caw :)
First of all congrats for your finish!Quote:
Originally Posted by caw_86
I'm curious how you liked the three copies of pithing needle in the main: did you find them useful? Would phyrexian revoker be better since it can stop mana abulities although it dies to creatures removal? Or do you think in retrospective some other effect (like oblivion stone) would be better?
Thanks!
ok, a sb card thenQuote:
Originally Posted by TimHarding
If you care at all about wasteland then I would suggest playing pithing needleQuote:
Originally Posted by kingtk3
Things i needledQuote:
Originally Posted by Razorwynd
Sneak attack x2
Exp map
Jtms
Lotv x3
Belcher x4
Sfm
Scading tarn
Flooded strand
Drs
Aether vial
Wasteland
Karakas
The 2 fetchlands were only after i annihilated all his permanents
I do love the deck, but there are still many things the deck folds against pre-board.. Recurring wasteland sucks. Combining pressure & control sucks (death & taxes). Any fast combo deck sucks (storm). Chalice on 1 sucks. I wish the deck was more resilient to non-permission control decks. How do I go about that? Just... Play better?
Edit: Aren't all strategies I just mentioned weak to Devastation Tide? I know it has been discussed to some extent previously, but why not this one? Our non-land board presence is very light if we're not winning anyway.
sneak and show is a fine match up,Quote:
Originally Posted by Hencules
i would have beat belcher G1 without my forces if i was thinking straight , and i still won the match.
small pox didnt even feel that bad, and they have wasteland, sinkhole, smallpox and liliana.
tendrils storm you are just dead game one though, i do agree with that though
I should have said if you are concerned about lands then you should play pithing needle over revoker.Quote:
Originally Posted by caw_86
Well, i think that most of the decks pointed as bad matchup aren't really so. I find mono-black pox to be from affordable to quite easy, because even if they tear apart our hand they're so slow at killing that you can easily and progressively recover and there's no way for them to remove a pithing needle unless they ultimate liliana, but that's probably what you should name with needle (mishra's factory is another good choice too, unless you decide to copy it with your own vesuvas)
About Goblins and Dnt, are they really bad matchups? I almost never lose a game to the both of them, even if i have to admit it's been a while since i faced gobbos and they are packing many more TSH now, so it could be easier for them to destroy that needle that's saving us from wastelanding our glacial chasm. The only things i really fear while playing against Dnt are Aven Mindcensor paired with Mother of Runes pre-side and Cataclysm post-side and that's why i usually board in Fow against them.
Regarding Storm, if you fear it or your metagame is infested by it, you should really try playing a maindeck playset of phyrexian revokers. Once sticked in play calling Lion's eye diamond, it slows their game A LOT and it immediately transforms your repeals into potentially deadly weapons. Think about this not-so-uncommon scenario where your opponent decides to go off, firing a couple of rites and all his cc0 artifacts in order to go hellbent once shooted his Infernal tutor. With his tutor still on stack, you decide to tap a single blue mana and cast repeal on LED, so that when tutor solves he's forced to search for another LED...
No.Quote:
Originally Posted by Davek
Repeal on LED is a sweet dream.
1) You don't have priority so that when the storm player plays IT, he responds to it "first".
2) Sacrifice effect does not pass to the stack.
Repeal could work but only on "chrome mox" for example and apart from TES, ANT players are not always (even never) playing chrome mox.
But if you have a Phyrexian Revoker naming LED the storm player cannot respond to IT by activating LED: that's all the point of the sentence you have quoted...Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralf
And point 2 is not technically true: it's more like "the costs for activating an ability are paid as soon as the ability is announced and don't go on the stack" ;)
Yeah I should learn to read better :-)Quote:
Originally Posted by kingtk3
Lost to 2 different WUR Delver decks last night running Clinton's list, via getting wrecked by Meddling Mage naming Repeal and Show and Tell. Boarded in Elephant Grass both times and a few counters in the second matchup but it just wasn't nearly enough. Kind of a corner case, but I found it noteworthy: basically your options at that point are ramp or die.
I ran into the same situation against that deck he maged repeal. And was beating my face with batterskull and sofaf, had just enough time and stalling to plAy titan and ramo into both eldrAzi. Crop rotation saved my ass twice once for glimmerpost and for chasmQuote:
Originally Posted by Zotmaster
If you have problems solving this scenarios just play stonr or all is dust^^
Im running in md 2 stones and 0 candelabra, in my meta there're bug, sneak and show, threshold and miracles, gobbos etc, stones are soo good and im thinking i can play mindslaver and academy ruins but there re not necesary..
And how are the death and taxes and ******** ( rug delver) matchups?
Right now I'm including a trinket Mage. 1 Mage and 1 Engineered Explosives alongside repeal are very big game against UWR, or any delver. Also, the mono colorless plan is often open in this MU, so you can skate by on GP maps and candles if you sense them focusing on your repeals and SnT. Keep an 'eye' out for this situation phphphphph.Quote:
Originally Posted by Togores
Mage on repeal lost me my match against UWR delver this weekend in an SCG IQ as well… I thought about including another source of bounce to combat this.Quote:
Originally Posted by caw_86
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hencules
It's not this simple. There's a difference between knowing what cards are good against what and playing decks where those cards are favorable. There's also a difference between having the right card for the matchup and drawing it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Togores
Right now, there are three pretty similar iterations of the same thing in U/G: Rock's list, Tim's list, and Clinton's list. There are also "outlier" lists: RUG lists and the mono-G or Gw lists. I have played all of them for at least a few weeks at a time. Rock, Tim and Clinton have the same fundamental goals and go about it in the same way but they each have slightly different strengths and weaknesses, so let's look at those.
Rock's list has the best defense against generic dorks and has the best initial matchup against decks like Storm with Phyrexian Revoker. It's soft to "Turn 1 kill you" plans, somewhat soft to recurred Wasteland (one Pithing Needle and one Trinket Mage to get it, and Surgical Extraction can come in from the board), and is in no position to get into a counter war (thanks to running three Swan Song).
Tim's list has the best toolbox package when you get into the board and also has more explosiveness by way of Oracle of Mul Daya. Running five fetches can also mean an additional chance at seeing the extra cards you need. I also feel it's the easiest list to sideboard with: you have three tutorable artifacts to address various threats, and a dozen counterspells. However, lots of unfair combo decks are going to nab a quick Game 1 win on this list. Recurred Wasteland will also be a bigger problem than it will be with Rock's list, and any deck that can run threats at a diverse CMC will probably have a good time too due to the conditional nature of Engineered Explosives.
Clinton's list is very direct. It is very good when you have no idea what you're going to be up against. It is good against most - but not all - unfair decks while also having solid game against most of the fair ones. It is also soft to "Turn 1 kill you" as well as to decks like Storm in Game 1. The board does help here, but it lacks sweepers and doesn't run Flusterstorm, which aside from its obvious usage against Storm also carries great opportunities to 2-for-1 careless opponents. It is also soft to recurred Wasteland.
This is part of why I really want the primer to be updated and would be willing to do it myself if there was enough interest. All three U/G lists are solid, the pilots are solid, and a player can find success with any of them. That having been said, a lot of it comes down to your own personal style of play as well as knowledge of what you're up against that determines exactly what cards go where. People have also had success with both RUG and mono-G: I can personally vouch for the hilarity of Bonfiring someone from 20 to 0 in one shot.
End rant.
-----
I've tried Devastation Tide, and personally I don't like it. It's very, very lackluster if you don't have Sensei's Divining Top to set it up. If you draw it without a Top, there is about a 98% chance you will wish it's just about any other card in your deck. Usually, it only buys you a turn, and in any case it doesn't net you an extra card the way Repeal does. If I were to run a mass-anything effect in that slot, I'd rather just kill all the things than bounce them. Your mileage may vary.
Could you manage a Whelming Wave or an AEtherize?Quote:
Originally Posted by Razorwynd
Won the local even though I played pretty poorly. It was my first event with the deck and I only played about ten matches with it previously over a year ago. My matches were as follows...
2-0 Miracles
2-1 Uwr Delver
2-1 Miracles (HARD misplay G1 with Primeval trigger. For some reason I didn't grab Ugin and died ~15 turns later)
2-1 TES
We scrambled the list together last minute and somehow ended up with 61 cards :(, here it is.
//LANDS-26
2 Island
1 Forest
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Tropical Island
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
3 Vesuva
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Karakas
1 Eye of Ugin
//CREATURES-9
4 Primeval Titan
2 Trinket Mage
1 Emrakul the Aeons Torn
1 Ulamog the Infinite Gyre
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truths
//SPELLS-26
4 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Candelabra of Tawnos
2 Pithing Needle
2 Expedition Map
4 Crop Rotation
4 Brainstorm
4 Show and Tell
4 Repeal
//SIDEBOARD-15
3 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Swan Song
3 Flusterstorm
4 Force of Will
1 Glen Elandra, Archmage
1 Mindbreak Trap
Future changes are most likely -1 Kozilek, -1 Crop Rotation, +1 Expedition Map.
I obviously had two really good matchups which definitely helped, and it was really cool to have Rock birding a few of my games and giving me some insight after the match. The deck is really fun and it's sweet how many lines of play you can take in every stage of the game. I will probably be playing it again in the future and hopefully not be so bad. At least I was able to identify most of my mistakes, learn from them, and will be able to apply those lessons in the future.
I'm currently pretty hung up on [card]devastation tide[/card]. Might just be the toy of the week, but it's a real catch-all so far.Quote:
Originally Posted by Razorwynd
@Zotmaster: Great comment, big take away is that the 3 UG lists you mention all play similarly, with slight tweaks for Meta, and player preference for when/where to give and take advantage.
My Breakdown:
Overall:
UG: Consistent. Redundant. Has at least some game against all legacy, excellent against Teir 1, softer to Teir 2.
UGr, Mono G, Gw: idfk, hope to dodge combo and hope for mono stoneforge meta, and no casual single wasteland blowouts
UG Details (recent):
Rock Lee: Strength in a more situationally diverse hate package, more angles. Focused on Meta Trends. Big advantage of hate (static) established not on T1, but turns 2-3-4. Where problems are most likely starting. Hate is maintained through game due to static effects and othe advantage. Win Via 2/x attack often. Hate is a little more proactive. List is naturally safe against beat down plans. Few counters hit once and hard.
Chime in Rock if this is grossly off base.
Tim H: Reactive hate, which is estaished T0, T1 (hates shenanigans) depletes, and then is restored by big late advantage bombs in tutorable static effects (trinket into chalice, cage, needle), Glen Elendra (big investment but you have won the game if you untap with her). Oracle stays in as a filter to draw more hate. Play well to bridge the gap between early and late game. 12 seemingly ignorant counter spells are exactly that, countering aggressively and using the hate density to keep living. Aggro concerns are shored up with 2/2s, 4 SnT, FOW, and EE. Prefer needle over revoker (for now) and can afford to because revokers strengths against elves and storm are covered with the straight-hate. Overall, strong agains combo, in that G2-3 way.
@hammafist, nice list! I just tried your SB 15/15 lol crazy.
Clinton: Traditional, was THE list in 2012. All the UG goodies, very equal consideration of Meta, highlighting the UG potency. More respect given to aggro and a little less to combo. But overall an average of the two total approaches listed above. I think in a totally blind legacy field this is the safest. Big props to listing to his style with the 4-ofs which I don't think happens enough with Post. Players need to play what makes them comfortable.
But overall, yes IMO most solid post lists are weaker game 1 to certain strategies, and then completely switch gears G-2-3. If you think about it very few legacy decks have a 'strong' G1 against a lot of the problem decks being discussed. Those who don't like that, opt for delver and daze - and lose to decks like ours :)
It's a good sideboard for the meta since there were 3 Storm decks out of 11 players. The Revokers came in against Miracles, nothing against Patriot, and all 15 against TES. It worked very well for me.
game 1s i think the best approach is just try to do what the deck does in the most efficient way possible and ignore your opponent, and build the board for the decks you cant ignore.
my board was put together at the last minute for the event and i only had access to one flusterstorm but opted not to use it. i think the BEB can accomplish what you need in its place. hitting PiF and burning wish can be huge in that match, along with being able to hit sneak attack and bloom moon.
the elephant grasses were critical to winning a few games, imo i think they should be an auto include in the board. i think that i would cut the glen elendra for a cage if i could go back. and change moments peace to EE, not sure though, i never got to use it so i dont know how good it could have been
Why you guys think elphant grass is so good?
I never would have used it.
Just show and tell or titan them to dead.
Short answer: because it is.Quote:
Originally Posted by Togores
Longer answer: because for one mana, it buys you a large number of turns. Most fair decks - especially Delver variants - have super-tight mana bases. Their options basically boil down to either developing their board or attacking you. It causes them to no longer be able to do both. It also causes problems for unfair decks like Sneak and Show. If a Sneak player knows you're playing 12-Post, he will wait until he has at least five mana, get down a Sneak Attack (or Through the Breach if you're on Game 2 or 3) and win that way. Now he needs a minimum of seven mana to pull that off without exposing himself to undue risk, which is still bad news for him. Hilariously, Elephant Grass also shuts down both Germ tokens and Griselbrand.
dont forget storms goblins and dredges zombiesQuote:
Originally Posted by Zotmaster