[Deck] Ichorid

I thought so!! But i'm glad with my deck list...i think that there are some fixed slots and the rest is according to oneself style. In my opinion the fixed cards are:

4 Golgari grave troll
4 Stinkweed imp
4 Bridges from below
4 Narcomoebas
4 LED
4 Putrid imp
3 Golgari thug
1 Flame-kin zealot
4 Ichorid
4 Cabal therapy

All this plus a rainbow manabase...
This gives to the deck te potencial to get the combo and many tokens.

Coming back to ad nauseam combo (i guess AKA TES or Tendrils) i think that unmask i a key card as well as against grinding servant and other combos even the mirror match (but i'm not sure at this last point)
Concerning firestorm i think that the matchup to side it claerly is cotrol specially blue control.

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4 Golgari grave troll
4 Stinkweed imp
4 Bridges from below
4 Narcomoebas
4 LED
4 Putrid imp
3 Golgari thug
1 Flame-kin zealot
4 Ichorid
4 Cabal therapy

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So let me get this straight, FKZ is a must-have, but Dread Return isn't? I think you might want to amend that.

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Originally Posted by Pulp_Fiction

@georgjorge: Woodfall Primus is good at answering Propaganda effects but does nothing against Leyline. It is not so good at removing Deed or EE since you have to DR it and then get your tokens killed and start over. You are running it in the Sb correct? As an additional answer to Prison, Elephant Grass etc? It is really not necessary in the main, an additional Cephalid Sage is just as good.

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You're right, it's mainly a Prison/Grass/Moat answer, although it can be decent against Landstill as well. When I mentioned Ray, I meant for it to fill the same role, i.e. as a one-of that kills a Prison/Grass for the kill.

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Originally Posted by The_Red_Panda

So let me get this straight, FKZ is a must-have, but Dread Return isn't? I think you might want to amend that.

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I was referring to number of copies of a defined card. Of course DR is a must have but some play it in 2x and others in 3x. If you want just add 2-3 Dread return to the list.

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Originally Posted by georgjorge

You're right, it's mainly a Prison/Grass/Moat answer, although it can be decent against Landstill as well. When I mentioned Ray, I meant for it to fill the same role, i.e. as a one-of that kills a Prison/Grass for the kill.

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In that cases i think that we have soe time to deal with that problem. Chain of vapor is great at this time. Just draw to get it or dredge and retrieve it with EW before getting the combo.

So no Ray of Revelation in the board at all? Does the same go for Ancient Grudge?

Also, can somebody explain how to utilize Firestorm correctly (when to side it, when to play it)?

Thanks.

@ Mayk0l: That is exactly what I was referring to, LED Dredge is less predictable but more explosive. And Putrid Imp is always better than Tireless Tribe but Tribe can actually block and will buy a couple of turns on average and is really the only suitable replacement discard effect IMOP to run in Dredge in the place of LED.

@ Golden Cid: Ray of Revelation and any other additional enchantment removal spells are going to be better than Chain of Vapor alone if you expect a lot of Prison and Moat effects. By running only CoV it forces you to be able to combo out the next turn before they can recast the enchantment. Ray just kills something dead twice so as you don't have to worry about it. Or lets you go nuts in one turn and flashback the spell without ever even needing to draw it.

@ Drow Slayer: Run either card if you expect it but I think Ancient Grudge is highly unnecessary unless your meta has a LOT of Stiflenought in it. Needle takes care of EE and Crypt/Relic and those are the only artifiacts this deck really needs to worry about after SB. Same with Ray of Revelation, its spectacular if your meta has tons of Prison and Moat effects; but if you rarely see Ghostly Prison, Elephant Grass, Moat, or Propaganda you should not run it. No SB is set in stone except ALL Dredge SBs almost without exception need 3 or more Pithing Needle and 4x Chain of Vapor.

@Drow Slayer:

I typically side in Firestorm against fast aggro (i.e. Goblins) or rock-ish decks that pack Yixlid Jailer in the board (or any other deck with creature based hate for that matter, that is just what is most prevalent in my meta). In theory you could use them as an uncounterable discard outlet as well, but I've never found that to be necessary.

Against fast aggro the plan usually is to wait for them to over commit then drop firestorm (Ideally you would have a needle in play as well). This should put you in a position to either generate a lot of zombie tokens/get Ichorid beats going/make Big Tolls on your next turn with them severely weakened. Honestly, you will often get a four/five for one out of the deal and hit them for a quarter of their life as well. Don't be afraid to take a couple hits.

You are forgetting that Ancient Grudge really is your only out against Trinisphere for the combo part of the deck (and even then you have to pop an LED if you got one dropped before the 3sphere, or wait until you hit 3 of 11-13 lands to get through just one 3sphere). It MAKES you go ichorid beats, and that gets waylaid quickly as most decks not named Dragon Stompy that play Trinisphere have Propaganda/Bridge/Prison.

Boarding in Firestorm is great against blue control such as but not limited to Thresh, Thrash, all Landstill, MUC and Faerie Stompy. With the discarding being part of the additional cost, it's a godsend to get to discard your cards even if the spell itself is countered. Now, you don't have to go DDD.

I think that Firestorm is good against AdN combo as well. If they get too overzealous and drop to single digits, Firestorm can really finish them off. Plus, if you get a good clock going (a quick token-producing Ichorid should do it), it MAKES them Ad Nauseam down to a pretty low life just to get what they need. Then Firestorm makes quick work of them.

Unmask works, but I've become underwelmed with it as of late. It's still an option obv., and it works well against combo and control, but it creates card disadvantage as well as not being proactive in winning the game. It just seems to not be my style. I will use it if I need it, but I've not needed it for a while now. Just my meta I suppose.

I do still use a 3/2 split on Breakthrough/Street Wraith respectively, though.

I want you guys to keep in mind Wispmare is good in the Ray spot. Evokes for W. Also, this is a VERY minor point, but in the mirror you can evoke it game 2 to rid you of their leyline and their bridges.

Pce,

--DC

With Ad Nauseum possibly becoming a commonly played deck that will beat Ichorid more often than Ichorid will beat it, I was wondering if adding Orim's Chant to the board might become something we could consider?
It's not ideal, but it's an answer to combo that will not be beaten by a nasty topdeck (as Unmask and Therapy are).
It might require us to play another Rainbow Land in the board (Undiscovered Paradise obviously).

The only problem I see with this idea is that the Board is swamped with other cards as it is. What do you guys think?

May be against AdN, stifle would fit better with our manabase...

If AdN decks dont even fear Stifle from blue decks, I doubt ichorid will scare them with it. Post AdN it's VERY unlikely that they won't have an answer (duress/chant) to prevent you from stifling the storm trigger.

Mayk0l, chant is strong yeah; but if you're keeping mana open to chant them you're not really advancing your own plan, so how will you benefit from the tempo boost?

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I want you guys to keep in mind Wispmare is good in the Ray spot.

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I agree, I've been running 2 Wispmares + 1 Ray for a while. Chain+Wisp give you 6 answers to leyline, which is comfortable; and since it's a creature, you can DR it to destroy a propaganda/prison when you're already set up (giving you 2-3 outs with Ray). I like having outs to prison effects, especially since it doesnt take a dedicated slot like Primus (because it's also useful against leyline).
The fact that it removes bridges in the mirror while dealing with leyline is just a nice extra :)

While it seems the consensus has moved away from both cards, classic SB options Chalice@0 and Leyline of the Void make a decent if not great anti-Storm combo team. The former can slow them down enough that they lose too much life to reliably win off Ad Nauseam; the latter shuts down IGG combo, aka Route B.

'Course, you need the speed of Dread Return in that matchup, so sideboarding gets even more tricky than usual. I defer the question to the experts.

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Originally Posted by Nihil Credo

While it seems the consensus has moved away from both cards, classic SB options Chalice@0 and Leyline of the Void make a decent if not great anti-Storm combo team.

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Chalice@0 is good option: cuts their petals, mox and led, including our leds!!!:cry: So think in a general fashion that getting combo as fast as possible is pur best choice and using correctly the therapy / unmask power would help us to get rid in this matchup

Obviously, you play your LEDs before playing the chalice at 0, and beyond that, you won't draw any other led, because yuo will be dredging all day... So I think chalice is a good sideboard card against AdN (also, setting it at 0 won't counter your therapyes, another good new)

I was wondering what the consensus is on Predator Dragon. The Pred seems like a solid option due to its ability to soar over a moat and the simple fact that it can usually get past a Prison for lethal by himself due to his devour 2. He has a base power of 4 which if we assume our opponent to be at 18 life (likely an over estimate) we need to off 7 tokens to make him lethal. with Zealot we needed 5 tokens plus the zealot to be lethal.

I do not play the deck sufficently to be a top tier player with the deck although to me it seems like a possible inclusion due to its game 1 applications. The requirement of an extra token seems well worth the advantages he gives against prison effects and moat.

P.S. for those who are unaware he also does have haste.

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Originally Posted by Zinch

Obviously, you play your LEDs before playing the chalice at 0, and beyond that, you won't draw any other led, because yuo will be dredging all day... So I think chalice is a good sideboard card against AdN (also, setting it at 0 won't counter your therapyes, another good new)

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Yeah...but LED is not always in our opening hand. You have make a decition.
I keep my thoughs on unmask and therapy.

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Originally Posted by GoldenCid

Yeah...but LED is not always in our opening hand. You have make a decition.
I keep my thoughs on unmask and therapy.

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The fact that Chalice @0 counters your own LEDs drawn after the first turn is really not such a strong argument against it. Most often you wont be drawing any cards after your first two turns anyway. Besides, Chalice @0 leaves you with 4 dead cards in your deck as opposed to potentially 12 dead cards in the combo player's - I'll take that trade any day. I'd be happy to accept 4 dead cards in my deck for 4 in my opponent's if his are all named Tormod's Crypt.

Personally, I don't run Chalice in my board anymore just because combo is not a significant presence in my meta (average less than 5%). If Ad Nauseam starts to become very prevalent in the next few months they may move back in.

Last night at my local tournament I took this list to a top 4 split out of 28 people:

4x Careful Study
4x Golgari-Grave Troll
4x Stinkweed Imp
4x Putrid Imp
4x Bridge from Below
4x Narcomoeba
3x Tireless Tribe
3x Ichorid
3x Dread Return
3x Darkblast
3x Breakthrough
3x Cabal Therapy
2x Cephalid Sage
1x Flame-Kin Zealot

4x Cephalid Colisseum
4x Gemstone mine
4x City of Brass
2x Tarnished Citadel
1x Undiscovered Paradise

SB
4x Wispmare
4x Pithing Needle
4x Chalice of the Void
3x Chain of Vapor

Usually I run 3x Chalice but when I got to the tournament I saw at least 4 people playing combo so I cut 1x Chain for the 4th Chalice. Here is a tournament report about what happened:

Round 1 Ad Nauseam Tendrils combo (unreg)
Game 1: I know what he is playing and mull to 6 trying to find Cabal Therapy and keep a hand that is a guarnteed turn 2 kill. He goes turn 1 land go. I drop Putrid Imp and don't see another turn. During his upkeep he Mystical Tutors for Nauseam and goes nuts. Nothing I can do there.

Sideboarding: I try some new sideboarding strategies and cut 1x Careful Study, 1x Cephalid Sage, 1x Dread Return and 1x Tireless Tribe for 4x Chalice.

Game 2: I mull to 6 again and keep a hand with Therapy. I play Putrid Imp on turn 1 cause I have a turn 2 kill in my hand and odds are he won't win on turn 1. He plays land LED, Petal go. Upkeep Imp flies and dredge GGT. Play Colessium and try to win. I hit absolutely nothing in my top 24 cards, 1x Bridge and 1x Therapy in the yard and 2x Moeba in play. Swing in with PImp and Therapy him, he acts like he wants to respond but doesn't so I call Mystical Tutor and hit it. The rest of his hand is Cabal Ritual, Dark Ritual, Brainstorm (important cards) so I decide not to discard the Therapy in my hand to flash it back. It didn't matter, EOT he Brainstorms and hits LED, IGG and its over next turn.

This is certainly a winnable matchup but not in favor of my build. Although I hate Unmask because of the savage card disadvantage it causes, that card combined with Cabal Therapy and Chalice could make this match very difficult for Ad Nauseam. I was also very unlucky with the dredging but that is the nature of this deck, I should have won game 2 but hey, nature of the beast.

It should be noted that the Ad Nauseam deck went 4-0-1 in swiss and lost in the first round of the top 8 to Ninja Chant. A deck that runs maindeck Extirpate, Orim's Chant, and Force of Will with Stifle in the SB. Also, all of the Ad Nauseams matchups were against solid Aggro, he didn't play against any Counterbalance or opposing combo decks.

I am at school and don't have time to finish my report. Sorry, I will be back on later and finish this off.

Interesting list, I like Undiscovered Paradise a lot more than Tarnished Citadel mainly because it helps get your DDD plan on track if your turn one discard outlet is countered. I know Paradise has been debated in this thread before, just giving my two cents.

I am curious about what people usually name on a blind Therapy. You made a nice read putting him on Mystical Tutor even though it didn't work out. I usally (blind) name Brainstorm against any list with blue, especially if I'm planning to flash it back in the near future (even moreso if they pause to think about letting Therapy resolve). There's nothing worse than whiffing with therapy and seeing a Brainstorm.

Nice report, but of course the combo matchup DOES get better with LED (not saying that playing without LED is wrong, just in this matchup at least). I also think that the DR plan is worth it against combo, though I side in one Grand Arbiter Augusting IV (what a janky card...) since you don't need four or five zombie tokens like with Flame-Kin, it just spells GG as soon as it's put into play (well, they CAN tutor for Wipe Away, but that costs them six mana while their accel is shut off, which should be more than enough to win).

Can't wait for the finished report Pulp.

I've been running Parcher's version and playtesting it versus ANT and TES. Unmask, believe it or not, actually brings the matchup ratio a lot closer. I usually play TES and my friend pilots Ichorid, and I want to rip my hair out every time I get Unmasked, cause I know if that card was anything else (like Careful Study), I'd just blow him away. Having the combo also helps immensely, but I what really messes me up is when you dredge into narcs and therapy - the Unmask buys just enough time to get there.

Side question: any idea what that guy's Nauseum Tendrils list looked like?

Alright, I hate school but I have the time to finish the tournament report.
Part 2!

Round 2: Spring tide (unreg)
This matchup is literally a bye.
Game 1: Turn 1 PImp with Breakthrough and GGT in hand give me the win on turn 2.
Game 2: More of the same except he counters my turn 1x Tribe and I win on turn 3 VIA Breakthrough.

Round 3: B/G Rock-esque w/ Extirpate and Deed in the main and Yixlid Jailer and Withered Wretch in the board (unreg)
Game 1: I mull to 5 and win on turn 4 VIA Ichorid and don't see Extirpate!

SB: Brought in 4 Needle to combat Deed and Wretch

Game 2: This game was fucking epic! I mull to 6 and keep a hand of Needle, Darkblast, PImp, Undiscovered Paradise, City of Brass and something else. Things go bad right from the start because I am an idiot, he plays a turn 2 Dark Confidant and like a total scrub I Darkblast the Confidant during my mainphase thinking "ha fuck Dark Confidant, no card advantage for you" and turn 3 he drops Yixlid Jailer! Fuck me, I feel so bad about this but now is not the time to worry about it, I drop a Needle naming Top to stop his card selection because he only has 2 lands in play, if he had 3 i would name Deed first but since I was safe for a turn I Needle Top and like clockwork he drops Deed on turn 4! I love Pithing needle, I drop it and in the following turns I draw: Moeba, Moeba, land, GGT while he has another Jailer to join the fight but the hardcast Narcomoebas are holding him back! Until he drop Goyf. Goyf gets in some damage and just as I have given up hope I draw Stingweed Imp and quickly throw him onto the board! All the while he has been taking damage from a Thresholded PImp! Things are looking good until he drops another Goyf and I am at 8 life! After a swing with both Goyfs I am forced to go to 4 life and like magic (thats a pun) I topdeck another Stinkweed Imp and finish him off with PImp a few turns later! This was a great game and Undiscovered Paradise certainly won it otherwise I would have killled myself with damage from my lands!

Round 4: Goyf Sligh (unreg)
Finally a good matchup!
Game 1: I keep a 2 lander with Darkblast and Tribe and 2x Careful Study. I go nuts on turn 3 with Study and then Cephalid Sage into the win!

Game 2: OMG, I dredged like complete shit but still managed to win. He was forced to Fireblast and Incenerate his own Goyf in order to remove my 2x Bridges, I had double Ichorid in the yard and was about to go nuts. Tribe held off his army while I eventuallly dredged into another Bridge and he swung with his whole team and put me to 2 life. I reanimate 2x Ichorid and flashback Dread Return on FKZ and swing for 12, he is at 11!

Top 8
I play against the same opponent as round 4. I lucksacked out the first time but don't think I can win through Extirpate, Jailer, Wretch, and Deed again.

Game 1: I mull to 5 and keep a no-lander that will win the game in 2 turns if I drew a single land. I don't and die on turn 6 (I PLAY 15 LANDS WTF) to a savage clock of double Mishra's Factory and Dark Confidant.

Game 2: My hand is fucking amazing: land, land, PImp, GGT, Tribe, Breakthrough, Stinkweed. I win on turn 2!

Game 3: Another awesome game! We both mull to 6 and he goes first playing Bayou and passing it over to me. I keep a hand of Imp, Tribe, Darkblast, Cabal Therapy, land, land. I draw into fucking Ichorid and Cabal Therapy him naming Extirpate, he mutters "fuck" under his breath and reveals 2 of them in his hand as well as Diabolic Edict, Smother, land. Go Therapy!!! Both PImp and Tribe get destroyed and I dredge into literally just nothing. But i eventually hit Ichorid and with 2x Bridges in the yard the game is over shortly with the help of a 10/10 GGT!!

We decide to do a top 4 split and I win 33$ store credit! Good stuff. I am really liking this list, it is very consistent and something weird happened, I mulliganed a hell of a lot less! The combo matchup is not as bad as you would think but still it greatly depends on your opponent and your dredges.

@ Sunshine: On a blind Therapy where I know I am not going to flashback I just name the card that my opponent could potentially have that I really don't want to see used. Against blue I usually call Force so I can resolve Breakthrough next turn or Stifle if it is going to be the Colisseum, often times it is EE if it looks like the deck will be going the Ichorid route. Just greatly depends. But generally I name Force, Stifle, or Goyf.

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Originally Posted by sunshine

I am curious about what people usually name on a blind Therapy.

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I generally name risky cards such as FOW, Daze, EE if it is blue.
Mogg fanatic, spark elemental if red.
Extirpate, pernicious deed, if it's black.

These are my general guidelines to play a blind therapy!

@Pulp: Tarstained citadel isn't too much self damage?? Just for asking...

Obviously it greatly depends on whether or not you are able to follow up with additional Therapys. If you only get one shot of course you will need to name whatever stops you and your opponent is most likely to have.

@ Yesmilord: I know the guy who was running the deck, throughout the tournament we were talking about good cards to put in and he said the list was all him, since he didn't have the internet has hasn't been on the source!! As far as I could tell this is the Ad Nauseam list I played against:

4x Mystical Tutor
4x Pact of Negation
4x Dark Ritual
4x Cabal Ritual
4x Brainstorm
3x Ponder
3x Chrome Mox
3x Ad Nauseam
1x IGG
2x Tendrils
1x Chain of Vapor
1x Echoing Truth
4x LED
4x Lotus Petal
4x Infernal Tutor
8x Blue fetches
4x Underground Sea
1x Island
1x Swamp

SB thrown together at last minute, it sucked.

The list was solid but he said he hated Infernal Tutor in the deck and would most likely go -2 Infernal Tutor +1 Mox +1 Ponder and cut the Pact of Negation for Orim's Chant. The deck was solid until it ran into Orim's Chant and Force of Will! Dredge certainly has a fighting chance against it though and this is certainly a match to go balls to the wall and keep very risky hands for the sake of winning fast cause that deck is a lot faster than I thought.

@ Golden Cid: Citadel of Pain certainly kicks your ass but it beats the hell out of the other alternatives. Grand Coliseum comes into play tapped, Tendo Ice Bridge can only be used once since and this deck has no use for colorless mana, drawing more than 1x Undiscovered Paradise would just suck when I am trying to setup for Colisseum (which will happen), and Forbiddan Orchard give your opponent tokens that remove Bridges. I would rather Lightning Bolt myself twice and win or put myself in good position to rather than be stuck on a colorless land like Tendo Ice Bridge. If you would like to try my build and want to alter the mana base you could cut 1x Citadel and add either Undiscovered Paradise or Tendo but cutting Citadel all together would be a mistake. The card does hurt you but that life has almost never been a contributing factor to losing a game that I should have won.

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Originally Posted by Pulp_Fiction

@ Golden Cid: Citadel of Pain certainly kicks your ass but it beats the hell out of the other alternatives. Grand Coliseum comes into play tapped, Tendo Ice Bridge can only be used once since and this deck has no use for colorless mana, drawing more than 1x Undiscovered Paradise would just suck when I am trying to setup for Colisseum (which will happen), and Forbiddan Orchard give your opponent tokens that remove Bridges. I would rather Lightning Bolt myself twice and win or put myself in good position to rather than be stuck on a colorless land like Tendo Ice Bridge. If you would like to try my build and want to alter the mana base you could cut 1x Citadel and add either Undiscovered Paradise or Tendo but cutting Citadel all together would be a mistake. The card does hurt you but that life has almost never been a contributing factor to losing a game that I should have won.

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Yes but you are running too many lands in my opinion i think that this deck needs only a 11-12 lands manabase.

I'd be more worried about having enough food for Ichorid with zero Golgari Thugs md. Does anyone play blue in your meta? It seems like this version is much more combo oriented which is ironic becuase of the lack of LED and only 3 Breakthrough. It's definitely an interesting approach, I might try testing something similar but with Street Wraiths in the place of Darkblast.

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Originally Posted by Nihil Credo

While it seems the consensus has moved away from both cards, classic SB options Chalice@0 and Leyline of the Void make a decent if not great anti-Storm combo team. The former can slow them down enough that they lose too much life to reliably win off Ad Nauseam; the latter shuts down IGG combo, aka Route B.

'Course, you need the speed of Dread Return in that matchup, so sideboarding gets even more tricky than usual. I defer the question to the experts.

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I forgot all about good ol' chalice. It's perfect because it almost forces them to have mana beyond the 5 needed for AN, because after they start drawing, most of their mana is at 0 cc. Good call Nihil (as always).

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Originally Posted by loop

Mayk0l, chant is strong yeah; but if you're keeping mana open to chant them you're not really advancing your own plan, so how will you benefit from the tempo boost?

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Compelling argument too. I guess Chant isn't the way to go with Ichorid, which makes sense on second thought, I guess.

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Originally Posted by sunshine

I'd be more worried about having enough food for Ichorid with zero Golgari Thugs md. Does anyone play blue in your meta? It seems like this version is much more combo oriented which is ironic becuase of the lack of LED and only 3 Breakthrough. It's definitely an interesting approach, I might try testing something similar but with Street Wraiths in the place of Darkblast.

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My meta is usually half blue that is why I decided to bring Dredge up this week. I really like 3 Ichorid, that is why I can get away with playing as many black creatures as I do. I have honestly never had a problem finding black creatures to remove for Ichorids and with the addition of 3x Tireless Tribe you don't need as many Ichorids to flashback your stuff.

Darkblast is fantastic in this build (which is/was all Extended with the exception of Undiscovered Paradise). This build is just as viable as LED Dredge it is just a tit-bit slower (turns 2-4 average). Cutting Darkblast for Street Wraith would be a mistake, I think you need to play a minumum of 10 things with dredge and going down to just 4x GGT and 4x Stinkweed would be very scary. I was never impressed with Golgari Thug, I thought at times it was highly unnecessary and would rather have a permanent answer to cards like Jailer, MM, Teeg, etc. rather than just 3x more creatures to reanimate my 3x Ichorid. And Darkblast dredges for 3 instead of 4, not that big of a difference. If you want to test the build put it together like it is and then make the changes. I suppose you could cut 2x Careful Study and 2x other things for Street Wraith but I have never like that card in the deck.

@ GoldenCid: I have to play 15 lands, I honestly have no choice. I am by nature a fairly unlucky person and, this is not a joke or sarcasm or anything, if I played a deck with 11-12 lands there is no chance in hell I could mulligan into a land + SB card to deal with Leyline or Crypt. I have to play the number of lands I do. I brough LED Dredge up to my card shop at least 2 times and lost each time because I could not get the number of lands I needed. Plus, I have won numerous games based on the fact that I can (with some consistency) hardcast Moebas and Stinkweeds if need be. In my build you need more lands but in LED Dredge it doesn't require as many.

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Originally Posted by Pulp_Fiction

@ GoldenCid: I have to play 15 lands, I honestly have no choice. I am by nature a fairly unlucky person and, this is not a joke or sarcasm or anything, if I played a deck with 11-12 lands there is no chance in hell I could mulligan into a land + SB card to deal with Leyline or Crypt. I have to play the number of lands I do. I brough LED Dredge up to my card shop at least 2 times and lost each time because I could not get the number of lands I needed. Plus, I have won numerous games based on the fact that I can (with some consistency) hardcast Moebas and Stinkweeds if need be. In my build you need more lands but in LED Dredge it doesn't require as many.

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I understand what you mean with unlucky person. I am such one!!
But beyond that, i have probed that 11-12 lands manabase is enough for our luck if we run LED. Trust me. LED is discard, mana (for flashback / prision efects) and pro combo stuff. It is the "economy" of the deck to get the combo. Without it maybe 13-14 lands are necesary since you have not the advantage in acceleration and versatility that it provides. But even in a manaless (or low mana) match this deck comes out with ichorid. I play 4 ichorid in md, i think that it is really necesary to start and sometimes i sb just 1 of them. With the pack 4 Pimp + 3 G thug + 4 Stinkweed imp i have enough food for ichorid and a good dredge level.
On the other hand to get with "necesary cards" or sb cards eternal witness in optimal. You can retrieve a needle or a chain of vapor from yard to deal with tormod's crypt, EE, or a prision (CoV is the right card in this case). She makes presure from the begining because is a clear procombo card in match 1 and good stuff to get with sb card in match 2. She puts tokens and helps much than sage (except in an strictly manaless bad combo situation, in other cases EW >>> Sage).

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Originally Posted by GoldenCid

On the other hand to get with "necesary cards" or sb cards eternal witness in optimal. You can retrieve a needle or a chain of vapor from yard to deal with tormod's crypt

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That's a play I'd like to see you pull off.

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Originally Posted by georgjorge

That's a play I'd like to see you pull off.

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He probably means if there's no Crypt in play ;)

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Originally Posted by georgjorge

That's a play I'd like to see you pull off.

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What i mean is that you can provoke a premature sacrifice of crypt forcing it with EW. It's one of two posibilities: or you force with EW or you force with ichorid. However sometimes this can fail.

Are you hardcasting Eternal Witness or are you Dread Returning Witness? Either scenario seems very unlikely, with 11-12 lands I doubt you will have 3 in play almost ever and Dread Return on Witness forcing them to use Crypt ... I can see that happening but usually your opponent won't let you get that far. I usually hold back all my dredgers and then will throw an Ichorid and a Stinkweed away to try and bait Crypt and a good player will Crypt you when you have Bridge, Ichorid, and a dredger in the yard. I see what you are saying but I doubt you will be able to flashback DReturn with Bridges in the yard.

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Originally Posted by Pulp_Fiction

Are you hardcasting Eternal Witness or are you Dread Returning Witness? Either scenario seems very unlikely, with 11-12 lands I doubt you will have 3 in play almost ever and Dread Return on Witness forcing them to use Crypt ... I can see that happening but usually your opponent won't let you get that far. I usually hold back all my dredgers and then will throw an Ichorid and a Stinkweed away to try and bait Crypt and a good player will Crypt you when you have Bridge, Ichorid, and a dredger in the yard. I see what you are saying but I doubt you will be able to flashback DReturn with Bridges in the yard.

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I think Witness is there to get back bounce that got dredged away to get rid of Propaganda/Prison, Confinement, Moat, Elephant Grass, etc.

@Pulp_Fiction
Sorry I should have clarified, I was already cutting three lands for three Thugs in my mind. I've never had trouble finding enough lands and I've always run only 11.

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Originally Posted by Pulp_Fiction

Are you hardcasting Eternal Witness or are you Dread Returning Witness? Either scenario seems very unlikely, with 11-12 lands I doubt you will have 3 in play almost ever and Dread Return on Witness forcing them to use Crypt ... I can see that happening but usually your opponent won't let you get that far. I usually hold back all my dredgers and then will throw an Ichorid and a Stinkweed away to try and bait Crypt and a good player will Crypt you when you have Bridge, Ichorid, and a dredger in the yard. I see what you are saying but I doubt you will be able to flashback DReturn with Bridges in the yard.

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Maybe that's right but if you retrieve a sb card to bounce or needle tormod i think your opponent will think on sac the crypt...or noT??

Its been a min. since my last post. Man was I wrong about unmask. I thought it slowed me down to the point of retardation, but alas it is a neccessity in order to even have the slightest shred of a chance against combo. I also really like the presence of eternal witness in the deck. Man that whore is some good... other than that i like 11 lands (4 cities, 4 mines, 3 coliseum)
I have not had the privelige of testing firestorm, but it looks good. Oh, btw
has anybody saw the list w/ dregscape zombie? wtf is that? Also congrats on the top four, but I love my leds... I also have fallen in love with contagion as a sb card...it owns gobos...

I was just wondering if someone could please inform me if the following is remotely intelligent or useful' Thank you.

I was wondering what the consensus is on Predator Dragon. The Pred seems like a solid option due to its ability to soar over a moat and the simple fact that it can usually get past a Prison for lethal by himself due to his devour 2. He has a base power of 4 which if we assume our opponent to be at 18 life (likely an over estimate) we need to off 7 tokens to make him lethal. with Zealot we needed 5 tokens plus the zealot to be lethal.

I do not play the deck sufficently to be a top tier player with the deck although to me it seems like a possible inclusion due to its game 1 applications. The requirement of an extra token seems well worth the advantages he gives against prison effects and moat.

P.S. for those who are unaware he also does have haste.

Its kind of cool, but say you are trying to combo off and the dredges are going shitty and this ends up as your only DR target. Its fairly lackluster. If you are really afraid of Moat and Propaganda and all that shit just run Ray of Revelation in the SB. There is no point in putting cards in that maindeck that don't have a serious impact on the game or have better alternatives. If you want a 3rd DR target the best alternatives are #2 Cephalid Sage, Vindicate Angel and Woodfall Primus. Cephalid Sage and FKZ generally win the game when you DR them back and are reliant on not much, if FKZ goes farming then you still have a shitload of zombies to beat face next turn, where as if the Dragon goes farming ... you gain some life and are back to where you started bringing back Ichorid and dont have many zombies to show for it cause you sacrificed some of them (or all) to devour. The Dragons is cute but thats really it, chances are you will not run into a lot of decks running Moat and Propaganda effects, but if you do I would highly advise 3x Ray of Revelation in the SB or another deck choice.