[Deck] Death and Taxes

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Originally Posted by JACO

Hey guys, the Junk and Taxes that placed 3rd at SCG Indy Open was played by Brian Fisher, playing a copy of the deck I created and wrote about in my last Instant Analysis article on EC here:
http://www.eternal-central.com/?p=1388

Fisher and I tested and updated the deck slightly in the couple of days leading up to Indy. Thoughtseize and Confidant are awesome in the deck, and are totally worth the splash. Whoever said Black isn't worth it is sorely mistaken.

Expect me to write about this deck on EC for one of my Focus On Legacy articles, and expect an interview with Fisher about his performance with the deck.

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I really lika the deck and I'm looking forward to reading the article about it. One thing that I have been thinking about is what to play if you have both Aether Vial and Thoughtseize in your starting hand in game one on the play. When you don't know what deck you are facing. I'm leaning towards Aether Vial to get your acceleration going. And to get the most out of AV. Thoughtseize turn two is still good and most deck dont do very broken turn one plays. Whats you tought about this?

If i was to hypothetically play this, I'd go thoughtseize first... that way you can make sure that the coast is clear for your vial...

I did fairly badly at a local tournament today. I went 2-3. Here's a quick run-down. I had a basic build with 3 Goldmeadow Harriers and a tutor toolbox SB.

Dredge: 2-1. I lose game 1 as expected. Game 2 I get a Turn 1 Enlightened Tutor into a Tormod's Crypt followed by a Wheel of the Sun and Moon. Game 3 I StP his Putrid Imp and he doesn't find a second discard outlet in time.

Monoblack: 0-2. I fail to get a threat to stick game 1. Game 2 I draw 1 Swords to Plowshares, 1 Aether Vial and 7-8 lands.

UG Show and Tell: 0-2. Game 1 he gets a quick Prog. Game 2 I side out StP even though I knew he would side in Goyfs. I punted it hard.

Goblins: 0-2. I manage to stall out early game, but I never get any good threat and get overwhelmed both times.

Elves: 2-0. I draw removal for his mana elves and he draws lands.


One thing I noticed with my build is that I never got enough threats out fast enough and was stuck on the defensive. I think switching to GW will fix this at least partially.

Ugh, I went from to a pair of tourneys this week and only went 2-2. I am considering Relic-Warders for the SB, but I haven't been to happy with Phyrexian Revoker. It could just be 2 bad showings in a row, so I am not giving up on them just yet.

I will say this though, I have had a couple of games where Sword of Feast and Famine have connected and they were GREAT. The discard is meh, but the untapping of my lands just wrecks.

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Originally Posted by Finn

@all, the discussion for this deck at Salvation is somewhat more developed than this one and the OP is far better.

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... some of us can't post on MTGS anymore....

Quick report from the 17man tournament. I played my old list (writed upper).

Only change was in sideboard ghostly prison out, basilisk collar in.

R1 vs Dark Horizons

I won the roll

G1 He tried to be aggressive, waste my first land, them StP my Mom. Them hymn to tourach drop loam and maze of ith. I dredge and waste his duals then lock with arbiter gg KotR ended the game.

Side in: Krosan Grip
Side out: Oblivion Ring

I was afraid Deed.

G2 He mull to 5.. few lands, but gravehate from his side. I ended game fast with 2 pridemages and arbiter wasting his green mana, and StP his confidant.

R2 MUD Forgemaster Combo (my friend)

I win the roll

G1 He kept poor hand, i had Mangara/Karakas look quite fast.

Side in: Null Rod, E.Tutor, Krosan Grip, Umezawa's Jitte, SoFI, 2 Stoneforge Mystic
Side out: 4 Leonin Arbiter, 3 Mom

G2 I kept hand with second turn null rod but without any removal, he played second turn (i was on draw) Wurmcoil with Greaves, couldn't win that.

G3 Side the same, I kept great hand: 1 mangaras, Krosan, 2 StP, Pridemage, karakas, dual draw next land. Overkill.

R3 Zoo - ID We had 3-0 both also my friend so we take Draw (don't want to play against Zoo).

R4 CB Bant - Very good pilot he won almost half of this tournaments (this one was XXXI)

I loss the roll

G1 he had sec turn CB but without backup. I dodge daze, and played Qasali, but instead of blow CB i started to be aggressive and started to beat him with him. And kept his mana on 3 lands with StP backup if he put any blocker. At the and i blow up CB then put KotR and Mom GG.

Side in: Krosan Grip, Bojuka Bog
Side out: Tabernacle, 1 Life from the loam

G2 Was similar to first but with Krosan backup. No blockers he FoWed twice Qasali.

R5 Dredge - was little surprised about it.

G1 He won on second turn i only StP (drew from top) on Ichorid. He terapy my blind 2 x StP, then again from Amoeba my KotR.

Side in: Bojuka Bog, Tormod's Crypt, E.Tutor, 3 Goddeck Teeg
Side out: 4 Leonin Arbiter, 2 Qasali Pridemage.

G2: Mull to 5 didn't find any hate :/ gg on second turn he dredge manually to 3 bridges and ichorid in only 6 cards.

In top4

I was paired with Zoo (from ID)

He win the roll

G1 Lavamancer, them Nacatl and burning all my low defense creatures. I was fast beated.

Side in:2 Stoneforge Mystic, SoFI, Umezawa's Jitte, Basilisk Collar
Side out: 2 Mangaras, 2 Oblivion Rings, Tabernacle

G2 I made big mistake, i waste his only red mana and loamed to waste again but he just put an other land and put KotR i play. I was screwed on 3rd land. I should put Stoneforge mystic with Collar..

Breakthrough after playing.

Zoo MU is bad its about 40 % I have to work on it. Specially that build vs who I was playing had Searing Blaze which was quite annoying.

Looks like D&T just won the Jupiter Games Lotus tourney, which is a pretty damn competitive tournament. Interested to see the decklist, sounds like it was mono-white.

The list I ran at Jupiter yesterday is as follows and it was 94 people

4 aether vial
3 flickerwisp
2 goldmeadow harrier
3 jotun grunt
3 leonin arbiter
3 mangara of corondor
4 mother of runes
2 phyrexian revoker
4 serra avenger
3 stoneforge mystic
1 sword of fire and ice
1 sword of light and shadow
4 swords to plowshares
1 umezawa's jitte
12 plains
4 karakas
3 rishadan port
4 wasteland

side board
1 jotun grunt
3 leyline of sanctity
2 oblivion ring
3 wing shards
3 wheel of sun and moon
2 phyrexian revoker
1 sword of feast and famine

@Fry : Congratz for this incredible result !! Can we hope to read a report..? or just what were your MU's ?
I'm glad too see a successful list with arbiters ! good job man ;-)

@ Fry: how did you feel about the maindeck revokers, and about harriers (i am dissapounted in them lately), and for what matchups did you use sword of feast and famine?

i see you did not use any oblivion rings maindeck, and even cut one flickerwisp, how does this come? (i know oblivion ring is the weakest card in the deck but flickerwisp?)

waiting for good report, did u faced any kind of Zoo ?

Ufortunately I didn't take any notes so there won't be much of a report, though I will thow in some of the juicier tid bits I recall.

However I did make an opponent pay 6 mana to use an expedition map.

Personally I think that the Revokers were my MVP's of the deck, the shut down jace, top, vial, lavamancer,and all sorts od other randomness you may come across.

Unortunately the harriers didn't do a whole lot for me(though they were indeed nice) because I didn't see them often and when I did see them I already had the game in the bag, or it was too little too late.

With cutting the O-Rings to the side and with mangara the only other real combo with the flickerwisp, 3 seemed to be a better number to me somehow, though at one point I did remove a goyf with one then swung for the kill at a jace.

The sword of feast and famine(personal choice over body and mind)was nice since I was ablke to untap my lands and force ccontrol decks to discard before I played spells.

I also dodged a bullet in round 4 when I played against belcher, he went off turn 1 in game one, game two he got ten goblins too late instead of more since I vialed in a revoker in response to him playing LED and my 4 creautures already in play was too much for him to overcome. In game three he mulliganed to 5 and only drew excell, not bussiness.

I did not play against a traditional zoo list but against a jund deck that had discard and zoo like aspects(unfortunately it was a friend of mine, the one who drove out there, I got him a guru plains with some of my winnings)


I faced two Goblin decks in the top 8, in the quarters and semis. In the quarters game one went by quickly, I started with a plains and vial, he had a port and vial, i played a wasteland on his port on my turn and played a mom, followed by another mom from the vial at the end of his turn in which he got a lack from the vial but no more land. I named vial on my next turn when I played a revoker, and he scooped up his cards and we went to game two.
Game two he led with a lackey, I followed with a mom. his turn two he attacks with the lackey so I trade with it, then he plays another lackey. my turn two I get another mom and a vial. skipping some parts I don't quite recall the game ended with me having 3 revokers in play naming ridiculous cards, a harrier equiped with a sword of fire and ice and a jitte with three counters since I removed one a the end of his turn to kill his only creature, and on my turn I remove all three counters to make the harrier a 9/9, swing with it and the 3 revokers for 15 and SoFI does the last 2 damage for total of the 17 I needed to advance to the semis.

the semis went fairly quickly as well since I kept a wasteland, vial, mom, plains, avenger, and some other things I don't recall and he conceded onto game 2 after a couple of short turns with him only having a port for mana since I blew up his badlands.
game 2 was much closer but I had an avenger in play with a SoFI equiped and a wing shards in hand when he attacked on his last turn.

the Finals was againt the only deck I lost to in the Swiss, 12 post eldrazi... I remembered that the games were fairly close in the swiss and since he wanted the poiints to qualify for the invitational in a couple months I offered him the points and the mox jet if I got the lotus, he refused so we playe it out. I got game one since I was more prepared this time than last, but it was still close. game two he got a kozilek in play and I only saw 1 wasteland and 1 port that game and he hand candelabra of tawnos in play and I had no revoker. Though I did sowrds the revoker and a primevalk titan and he gained 26 life that game and I still had him down to 9 when it was over. Game three I kept a plains, wasteland, wasteland, vial, mom, revoker, and avenger hand. in the first two rounds he plays cloudpost and I blow them up befire they get to unntap, and since I went first I had the vial going from the start and just kept swinging for the win.

after the winning game my friend who had the jund deck ran over with massive congrats and my other friends were also quite proud. Since I actually borrowd the deck with a some modifications of my own to include the revoker for instance I traded the lotus in for $500 and made the deck for myself except for the ports which they were unfortunatelly out of and I made the deck a lot more shiny. I also got a few foils I didn't have and a guru plains for my friend who I borrowed the deck from.

How were the arbiters for you? I played them as a 4-of until MBS was released... but I'm thinking of bringing them back in...

I did not like the Arbiters. I'll try 3x Revoker main for giggles at some point. I have too much room when I remove Harriers.

there are a lot of decks that search the library, mainly the fetches which most decks have and the arbiters slow them down to the point of giving you an extra turn while they have to pay to search, so they pretty much slow your opponent down enough they can really give you an edge to work with, and if they don't help against the matchup (which I always kept them in even against belcher they stop land grant) you can always replace them with something that works better from your sideboard

Anyone tried Crimson Acolyte vs Zoo ?

he looks just terrible, if anyone has problems with zoo, then use forge tender, allready has pro-red, and if you sacrifice him it gives pro-red to another creature, and you will use the effect mostly in situations when you want to equip one of your guys

btw. did anyone try mirran crusader? if yes, what do you think about him?

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Originally Posted by Fatal

Anyone tried Crimson Acolyte vs Zoo ?

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I agree with AggroSteve. Burrenton Forge-Tender is strictly better. It has so much wider application:

- comes down turn 1 to block Lackey
- blows out Bridge from Below
- protects from Firespout or Price of Progress
- pairs with SoL&S to give an out to Progenitus

Probably a handful of other cases I'm not thinking of, but it's definitely a stronger card and fills a casting cost that the deck has a harder time finding competative creatures for.

it's obviously not strictly better, but I agree, it is a superior choice

If Zoo is what you are gunning for (which seemed the point of Fatal's post), I think Perimeter Captain is better than both Forge-tender and acolyte. Captain has even out-performed additional removal for me in this matchup, in part because it usually gains some life and makes burn less problematic (which removal doesn't do so well). It stalls nicely and blocks green creatures (and often lives) which is an important part of beating Zoo. Obviously, Captain is only worth boarding in against Zoo and Goblins, and it isn't as versatile as Forge-tender against Bridge, Burn (I still see it once in a while), and very rare corner cases like an out to Progenitus.



peace,
4eak

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Originally Posted by from Cairo

I agree with AggroSteve. Burrenton Forge-Tender is strictly better. It has so much wider application:

- blows out Bridge from Below

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Unless they're casting Firestorm or have Zealot in play I fail to see how it blows out Bridge since you need a red source to target in order to use it. And if Zealot is on the board I doubt they care about Bridge at that point.

It doesn't target. You can sac it at any time you have priority.


peace,
4eak

Ah, apologies then. I should have even realized it doesn't say "target" as well. Thanks for the correction.

Perimeter Captain is indeed a very effective thwart against Zoo. And we are certainly talking about the [mana]w[/mana] cards only. But since it only comes in against Zoo, it being a wall, it is not as good a choice as BFT. That one has other applications as has been pointed out. Goldmeadow Harrier is broader still. For me, I have decided not to have any creature in that spot for now, instead using extra removal as it is nearly always useful at he same cost.

Perimeter Captain doesn't come in just against Zoo, but also against Goblins.

As I said, it is very limited in its scope. Presumably, only a few metagames would be interested in using him. If you were in a Zoo and Goblins heavy metagame, I could certainly see it. For the general metagame, I certainly am not recommending him.

I've given up on trying to find a 1cc card (not just creatures) to play in addition to Vial/MoR/StP in the general metagame. It would be nice to find more 1cc's, but even cards like Condemn have been very poor for me.


peace,
4eak

i have to agree with 4eak, i have the same problem, no 1cc card right now seems worth it in this slot

i was allways underwhelmed by forge tender, because he is just sooooo tiny and has its uses only in specific metas/matchups
now i am underwhelmed by harriers as well,.... lately i even thought of adding isamaru again... not the best idea but he has some synergy with the deck, even though with combat damage not using the stack he simply sucks

condemn and path to exile come to mind as well but i dislike both.... but path to exile only for being antisynergistic


to perimeter captain... i thought of him but he is really only usefull against zoo, since goblins should not be our worst nightmare^^, therefor i opted to suggest BFT, even though i do not like him myself...... its a metacall, and for those who want a creature/card for a generel meta, i think we have to invent one ourself, or did anyone find a useable card for this slot and 1cc

otherwise i think i will cut 1 oblivion ring and the 2 harriers and put 3 revokers in their place, it surely is a better use of the place

and again my question from the previous page: did anyone test mirran crusader, is he worth some slots? or is he just a cutie but good for nothing?

It has probably been suggested already, but would Icatian Javelineers fit that slot? He pings out X/1s and trades with X/2s on the block, while also killing himself likeBFT against dredge.

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otherwise i think i will cut 1 oblivion ring and the 2 harriers and put 3 revokers in their place, it surely is a better use of the place

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I've been testing the full 4x Revokers, I'm impressed. It is very rare that you have nothing relevant to name. The body is awesome, and being Vial-able is absolutely amazing. He's a card that nobody sees coming -- I'm not sure how good he would be if people anticipated him.


peace,
4eak

Talking about the 1cc slot, did anyone try Rhys the Redeemed, maybe as a 1 or 2-of? He has an interesting ability, and Karakas can protect him, even though this doesn't seem that useful.

@4eak: I'm also testing Revoker as a 4-of and the first results are promising, protecting my equipment against Qasali, my team against Deed, messing opponent's Vial, Top, Jace, etc, etc. He is useful in almost every match, even to stop opponent's Vial if I do not see mine or after using mine a couple times.

Rhys is interesting, but is almost certainly a non-starter. It is a small, mana-intensive parity breaker. The deck is full of that already. And all the others are better at it.

Mirran Crusader is too expensive to be useful early and it is too fragile to be great late. That is also true of our other 3-mana critters, but they all have amazing disruption where he has none. Plus, it is win-more. Absolutely not what this deck needs.

Revoker has been pretty good for me. Sensei's Divining Top, Jace, Aether Vial, and Qasali Pridemage have been my most common calls. Top and Jace are just excellent. The Pridemages I have been calling are all in Zoo and this has not been an especially good interaction, but not terrible either I suppose. He burns them and all our other stuff gets burned anyway. The Vials are going to be interesting in the long run. I have drawn Aether Vials with Revoker naming it on the table and at other times I often want to call it when I dare not. That is when I want Revoker to be a Relic-Warder most. But mostly positive.

My common Revoker targets are nonland mana sources like Noble Hierarch, Mox Diamond, Chrome Mox and Lion's Eye Diamond. In many matchups it felt like Rishadan Port that also beats for 2, can be vialed in and wears equipments. Also, the dude costs colorless mana and that's a huge advantage over Relic-Warden (you will not going to have a vial every game).
Plain awesome.

Anyone have any thoughts on fitting in a few Sunstrike Legionnaire? He seems to fit the role of Goldmeadow Harrier, plus he often untaps multiple times in a turn (due to Flickerwisp/Karakas shenanigans) and he doesn't require you to pay mana to tap. He can't tap down a few of the regulars in Legacy, but I figure Mangara and Swords can take care of business there. He does cost 2 though, which the 2 slot seems a little tight right now with Stoneforge/Arbiter/Avenger/Revoker. He might be worth trying out as a 3-of. Thoughts?

I believe Legionnaire could untap multiple times once or twice, then you'll hate it for not untapping, while your opponent's creature are attacking you.
I think I'd rather try to fit an Avenger en-Dal than a Sunstrike Legionnaire, but both seem underwhelming.

Here's why I like Mirran Crusader in the mono-white:
-he's an actual clock in a deck full of a lot of 1/1 and 1/2 dorks
-he's hard for 4c countertop to remove (just swords; jace bounce is terrible if you have a vial)
-he's ludicrous with equipment, making him an absolute must remove, and this deck runs a virtual 6-7 equips maindeck
-pro Goyf and Knight is very sweet
-problack is amazing in the random matchups vs Tempo Thresh, UBG landstill and other decks that rely on Ghastly Demise, Smother, GFTT, etc.

I don't play D&T myself, but I playtest against it extensively with a friend, and I find the equipment package to be the scariest thing to face down; not mangara lock, not mom, not even the scary port-waste. It's true that in a lot of situations where you can swing with an equip you are definitely winning, but not all of them. Crusader can dig out of just about any hole with an equip, which is not true for the others, and he's also easier to stick on the board.

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Originally Posted by lebarion

I believe Legionnaire could untap multiple times once or twice, then you'll hate it for not untapping, while your opponent's creature are attacking you.
I think I'd rather try to fit an Avenger en-Dal than a Sunstrike Legionnaire, but both seem underwhelming.

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Avenger en-Dal doesn't really serve the same purpose though. I mean there are times when you want to tap down their guys even when they aren't attacking. Legionnaire can also clear the way so your piddly 2 or 3 power guys can get through for damage. He can also tap down utility creatures like Welder, Lavamancer, Metalworker, etc. during upkeeps when their effects can be less profitable. Plus Avenger costs 3 mana to activate, something this deck can't afford at times when spending mana on dudes that can't be Vialed in at that time or for equip costs. You can even Vial in a creature at attack step to untap him to tap their dude or set up surprise blocks.

If you can hit with SoLaS or SoFI, he can lock down board states, not to mention the fact that he can clear the way for you to hit more often to make him draw cards/bring back creatures to untap to lock down the board more.

I think you'll find that with all the shenanigans this deck tends to do with creatures entering play, even mid-late game it seems like he could lock down boards for a couple vital turns. Just seemed like a solid creature that fits roles that this deck needs at times; a way to push damage through. Plus his mana cost is light on white (1W), which helps his case even more (being that we run multiple colorless sources).

I don't know, I wouldn't necessarily write him off. People had the same reaction with the Boot Camp Soldiers build that was in the forums some time ago, but they found he was actually pretty good in a Legacy environment where everything costs 3 or less. I'll probably try him out the next time I play D+T at a tourney.

Sunstrike Legionnaire used to be awesome in Soldier Aggro lists of a few months ago.

Mirran Crusader is a lot like Serra Avenger; he's a beast with equipment, sometimes getting up to 2 equipment triggers per round of turns (which Avenger occasionally will also do). SoFI makes him a god -- Pro 4 colors, and when he's not answered, it is 8 damage + 2 ping + 2 ping + 2 card draw. Sounds win-more, right? In fact, he's so good with equipment that he's closer to being a Progenitus than Avenger when equipped -- he does tend to win on the spot. It is almost combo-esque. It is worth testing just for the fun factor.

I'm not sure if he is necessary. He's won some games for me that nothing else could. Naturally being Pro green gives you an even larger edge against Goyf.dec. The choice, to me, is whether or not we will concentrate on making the deck better against decks which aren't already decent matchups. In metagames which are most ripe for DnT, he's everything you want him to be. For metagames which give DnT trouble, I prefer more disruptive cards for these slots.

I've also been on the side of the table facing Crusader -- I'm rarely pleased to see this card. It hits way too hard.


peace,
4eak

There's something to be said for Pro-Firespout in Mirran Crusader.

I haven't used him in Legacy, but I know he is a BEAST at the local FNM if he gets equiped.

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Originally Posted by Finn

Revoker has been pretty good for me. Sensei's Divining Top, Jace, Aether Vial, and Qasali Pridemage have been my most common calls. Top and Jace are just excellent. The Pridemages I have been calling are all in Zoo and this has not been an especially good interaction, but not terrible either I suppose.

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I think I'd be more scared of grim lavamancer on average, or did zoo never draw one in your testing?
Naming grim seems like it would also be really good.
I think revoker sounds like it could be pretty good.

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Originally Posted by 4eak

Mirran Crusader is a lot like Serra Avenger; he's a beast with equipment, sometimes getting up to 2 equipment triggers per round of turns (which Avenger occasionally will also do). SoFI makes him a god -- Pro 4 colors, and when he's not answered, it is 8 damage + 2 ping + 2 ping + 2 card draw. Sounds win-more, right? In fact, he's so good with equipment that he's closer to being a Progenitus than Avenger when equipped -- he does tend to win on the spot. It is almost combo-esque. It is worth testing just for the fun factor.

I'm not sure if he is necessary. He's won some games for me that nothing else could. Naturally being Pro green gives you an even larger edge against Goyf.dec. The choice, to me, is whether or not we will concentrate on making the deck better against decks which aren't already decent matchups. In metagames which are most ripe for DnT, he's everything you want him to be. For metagames which give DnT trouble, I prefer more disruptive cards for these slots.

I've also been on the side of the table facing Crusader -- I'm rarely pleased to see this card. It hits way too hard.


peace,
4eak

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Give him Jitte, and in two attack phases they go 20 to 0.