[OLD] UGr Threshold

I've been meditating more about the Tempo Threshold sideboard... A sideboard like: 4x REB 4x Submerge 2x Pyroclasm 2x Krosan grip 2x Gilded drake 1x EE wouldn't be ok? I mean, with Submerge Gilded drake is cool and in a desperate situation we can stifle him to have a 3/3 flyer; it's also useful against Ichorid because if you don't want to exchange it goes to the graveyard, removing bridges... The lack of Tormod's crypt could be bad, but stealing the opponents creatures could be interesting. What do you think?

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Originally Posted by Arkarian

I've been meditating more about the Tempo Threshold sideboard... A sideboard like: 4x REB 4x Submerge 2x Pyroclasm 2x Krosan grip 2x Gilded drake 1x EE wouldn't be ok? I mean, with Submerge Gilded drake is cool and in a desperate situation we can stifle him to have a 3/3 flyer; it's also useful against Ichorid because if you don't want to exchange it goes to the graveyard, removing bridges... The lack of Tormod's crypt could be bad, but stealing the opponents creatures could be interesting. What do you think?

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your ichorid matchup is never going to be positive unless your whole board is dedicated to it, imho... you just burn their guys so they have a hard time dread returning/cabal therapying you and swing in with goyfs while wastelanding/stifling the coliseum threshold and forcing the breakthrough.

Is there a clear cut verdict on Quirion Dryad vs. Werebear? On deckcheck.net, I see them both being played with reasonable frequency, and each creature has advantages/disadvantages that are unique. Is it a personal preference or is there a legitimate reason why one is supposed to be run over the other?

can someone share their experience vs geddon-staxx?
my board has:
2 annul
3 krosan grip

i think spell snare is only useful vs chalice @ 1 in this matchup, but still i would keep it as i can pitch it to force otherwise.. im not sure if i should just take out 2 spell snares for 2 annul and then 3 bolts for 3 grips?

i know fire/ice is ok to tap down trinisphere during their eot so you can cast some spells on your turn or tap down magus to get in for dmg w/ goyf...

daze is really good as they often times tap out to cast their bombs.

the worst card for us in this matchup seems to be crucible cuz i only auto lose to that resolving due to wasteland lock = gg.

stifle seems to help alot against their wastelands as well while we wasteland their stompy lands...

how do you guys play against this matchup besides what i mentioned?
what type of hands do you try to mull into besides the obv FoW/annul/grip combos?

So I won the monthly Hassloch tournament yesterday (35 people) playing my latest Next Level Grow list that featured 2 Snakeform and 3 Fire/Ice in the metagame-slots. Despite playing the Grow-mirror for 5 straight matches Snakeform never did anything for me other than pitch to FoW. Pretty disappointing! F/I wasn't that great either, but as it really shines in the Tribal-Aggro MU, cycles, pitches to FoW and provides reach, I'll keep playing them.
At the moment I'm tinkering with Vedillion Clique or more likely Krosan Grip (yeah, a fricking third of the decks played yesterday contained CB) to replace Snakeform.
Anyway, has any of you guys some tech to make the mirror (against Thresh with CB) more favorable?
Oh, and Quirion Dryade is a real powerhouse! MVP all day.

Has this build ever considered dropping a couple of each dual to get some basics in to help against b2b / wasteland lock / etc?

When it comes to nonbasic hate, I think the manabase is pretty resistant (as a matter of fact, it's the old MoonThresh manabase):
Blood Moon doesn't effect this deck all too much, if you get down an island and an forest (Magus of the Moon isn't a problem at all, obviously).
You can play around BtB if you expect it (and in MU where you expect BtB post board, you most likely want to board in some Pyroblasts anyway).
The only concern are recurring Wastelands. I never had a problem with the manabase (and haven't even thought about changing it since I picked up the deck), but if nonbasic hate runs rampant in your metagame you can go down to two copies of each dual and 5 basic lands (Clemens Thresh/w list ran this configuration).

If you want to improve your matchup against CB Threshold you should probably be running some Krosan Grips in your sideboard. Besides I think that you build is already quite well equipped for the mirror match. Another possibility might be the addition of some Spell Snares in the maindeck as they are quite versatile and can counter some of the most important cards in the CB-Threshold mirror (Goyf, CB). At least that's what they are supposed to do in this matchup when you are playing with Canadian Threshold against Counterbalance Threshold.

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Originally Posted by spirit of the wretch

Anyway, has any of you guys some tech to make the mirror (against Thresh with CB) more favorable?
Oh, and Quirion Dryade is a real powerhouse! MVP all day.

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With so many CB in your meta I would consider Vexing Shusher, so you won't always loose if your opponent has Balance first.
Cryptic Command is also quite nice in mirrors and against control if you can get to 5 mana (against Daze).

What is the general concensus in regards to countertop or trigon in a canadian thrash build? Or does their inclusion take it too far from tradition for the deck to even be called that?

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Originally Posted by Smog

What is the general concensus in regards to countertop or trigon in a canadian thrash build? Or does their inclusion take it too far from tradition for the deck to even be called that?

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cb is too slow when youre trying to stifle/wasteland things. trygon can go in the board if you really want it. i rather play grip.

I've just partcipated to the Time walk beta tournament in Montreal. There was 55 players and I finish 5th with Next Level Grow /r, here's my list:


// Lands
2 Polluted Delta
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Volcanic Island
3 Tropical Island
3 Island
1 Forest
3 Flooded Strand

// Creatures
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Trygon Predator

// Spells
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Daze
2 Predict
4 Force of Will
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Fire/Ice
1 Pithing Needle

// Sideboard
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 2 Price of Progress
SB: 1 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Pyroblast
SB: 2 Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 Firespout
SB: 2 Pyroclasm
SB: 2 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Pithing Needle

I was anticipating a lot of Landstill (they all play Elspeth or Deed) so I really wanted something against Elspeth MD, which been the Needle. I also knew a couple of guys playing chalice.dec (1x Dragon Stompy, 2x Faerie Stompy, 1x Stax...) so I decided to play the trygons MD as Stefen(spirit of the wretch) does. I decided to play the Goose and they have been so great all day long. Both Needle and Trygons has been good against Merfolk also which I faced thrice. A lot of aggro hate on the Board, and the top8 really sees how many aggro decks was present today:


1-2. Survival Elves
1-2. BW Fish (jitte, bob, Mother of runes, Serra avenger, Sinkhole...)
3-4. Merfolk
3-4. Merfolk
5. Next Level grow (me)
6. Eva green
7. ANT
8. UWB Landstill
(Not still sure about positions 6-8 but sure about mine)

What I faced:

First round:
1-2 against Merfolk

1: I win toss. I decide to go aggro with 2 goose and a goyf but wake thrasher + LoA has just been too much quick.
2. He play 2 vials but I kill all his creatures with Fire/ice, bolt and pyroblast and goes for the win with Trygon predator.
3. He forces my goyf. I'm able to take care of Loa and Reejerey but he's beating me down with 2 Cursecatcher. Trygon comes too late.

0-1

Second round:
2-0 against UGW Winter Thresh

1. Loss toss. He play Mox Diamond + goose first turn. I cast my mongoose. He's stick on 1 land + 1 Mox and I'm able to daze everything. I finish him with my gooses having thresh and goyf.
2. Pretty much the same scenario. I deal with everything he does except his Ghostly prisons, which I really don't care of. Goyf win.

1-1

Third round:
2-0 against UR Dreadstill

1. Loss toss. He mulligan at 6. I manage to have CB + goyf and bolting his Mishra's. I don't see a single stifle/Dreadnought but the standstill+volcanic says me it's dreadstill.
2. I go quick CB again and slowly go with mongoose and then Trygon predator which keep him far from top/relic/CB.

2-1

Fourth round:
2-0 against WB Fish

1. Loss toss. He plays first turn Mother of runes but I have needle for it. He's stuck on 2 lands and I daze pretty much everything and finish him with Goose + Tarmo even after 3 Path to exile on my tarmogoyfs.
2. I force his 1st turn vial when he kept a 1 land hand with 2x Mother of runes, 1x Dark confidant and 1 jitte. I fire/ice all his creatures and slowly go for boosted goose while he's again stuck on 2 lands.

3-1

Fifth round:
2-0 against Imperial Painter

1. Loss toss. 1st turn top for me. He takes me at 8 with an Imperial + a Painter but I have CB down. I finally find a goyf and a fire/ice + a bolt to attack on a clear board.
2. 1st turn top again and 3rd turn CB. Pretty much the same situation.

4-1

6th round:
2-1 against Merfolk

1. Win toss. 1st turn top. He puts me at 13 with Cursecatcher but my mongoose grow quickly and I manage to have 2 goyfs finishing the job.
2. I put him at 4 with goyf, predator and a goose but a shit turn with Wake + Loa puts be down on 1 turn.
3. CB + Needle on Vial shuts him down and double goyf finish the job.

5-1

Top 8:
0-2 against the same Merfolk

1. Loss toss. He has 2 quick Curse and me 1 goyf putting him at 7. He finds a Loa + Kira and he just goes more quick,
2. He calms my goyf with 2 relic and while he's at 11, he puts 6 merfolk on the same turn with Reejerey, untaping vial and lands + Loa. I find Pyroclasm next turn but it's been too much because he has Loa + 2 Reejerey so they are all 4/4 and 4/3.

I take the 40$ and let the aggro decks go top4.

I played at the same tournament but played something "weaker"

4 tarmogoyf
4 quirion dryad (he was MVP in most MU)
4 nimble mongoose

4 fow
4 daze

4 brainstorm
4 ponder
3 sleight of hand (worst card, ever)

4 lighting bolt
3 fire/ice
1 rolling earthquake (good all day)

2 krosan grip (I met 0 CB... 0 dreadstilll)
2 rushing River (one of the worst card, of my deck)

18 lands

2-0 Against Dragon Stompy. He mulls to five, so just win. Game 2, I somehow survive to trinisphere and Blood Moon. My Quirion Dryad was 9/9 and beat him to death

1-2 Against Painter Servant : He goes nuts game 1, and i lose because i keep bad hands. Game 2, he goes nuts again. Turn 1 painter (no counter from me, yea). He plays 4 Red Blast on me, so im stuck with 0 lands

2-0 Against Goblin. Game one, i simply own him with Tarmogoyf and Quirion Dryad (have i said how much i love them?)
Game 2, i have a triple pyroclasm hand, 1 ponder, 1 mongoose and 2 fetch. The game is won already. (Well not already, my ponder could have failed me...)

2-0 Against Counterslive. Game one, i double force of will to save my tarmogoyf (he stp, i fow, he fows, i fow again). I win the game. Game two, my quirion dryads were 6/6 and 7/7. The beat him down to death.

1-2 Against Merfolk. Game one, i lose because i can't read cards, or because i can't judge a card. He played Wake ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresher (+1/1 when you untap permanent). I can burn it, i dont. So i attack, he obviously doesnt block. He start tapping his vial and turn his muta into man. He untaps 6 permanents and swing for 7. Im still not burning. He swings again. Im down to 4. And suddenly, i realize how strong Wake ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresher is. I burn it. But the game is already over. GG me.
Game two. Quirion Dryads do what they are supposed to do (he had 2 relic of progenitus in play. LAUGH!)
Game Three : I keep a crappy hand (im good at this). 2 land, 1 sleight of hand (have i said how bad these were?), 2 quirion dryad, 1 nimble mongoose, 1 tarmogoyf. He wins the game, because i dont see anything blue/red after that sleight of hand.

Im 3-2, i know im out. So i play out. 0-2 against aggro loam.

Anyway, it was a good tournament. Red Thresh is best at against tribal deck. But i feel it is not good enough against mirror or control. Needs more tuning and testings

Robert

I don't know if this has been talked about before or not, but is volcanic fallout better than pyroclasm in the board? I can't decide what I want to play in Chicago. They both have there pros and cons, but I would like to hear from other players on the subject. Thanks:wink:

-Chris-

I prefer pyroclasm as it comes online a turn earlier.

In my opinion Pyroclasm > Firesprout >> Volcanic Fallout.

Fallout basically only has the advanage in the Merfolk MU and even there the casting cost of Pyroclasm might also do the trick (read: protect you from Daze and Cursecatcher).

Volcanic Fallout also deals two damage to players which isn't good when playing the control role.

Firespout is really good to finish of Goyfsligh creatures while leaving your Trygons alone but I guess in a Goyfsligh heavy meta one wouldn't play this deck anyways.

I am playing traditional canadian threshold (4s across the board save 1/1 bounce spells and 2/2/2 fetch lands) What changes can be made to this build possibly against the bounce spells to change this? I was thinking vendillion clique over a bounce spell might be good as it gets in there for 3 and makes sure it lives once it resolves.

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Originally Posted by undone

I am playing traditional canadian threshold (4s across the board save 1/1 bounce spells and 2/2/2 fetch lands) What changes can be made to this build possibly against the bounce spells to change this? I was thinking vendillion clique over a bounce spell might be good as it gets in there for 3 and makes sure it lives once it resolves.

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Me and my teammate were quite successful with Vendilion Clique. It's really awesome as 1-off, as it surprises the opponent and almost always connects more than once. It's just never dead.
But you should run it over F/I because its the worst card in the deck and you usually don't want to see too many of them. Don't get me wrong F/I is still good but 3 copies are enough. Bounce on the other hand swings so many games that I would never cut it. I also rarely board both bounce spells out.

@post above

Hey, that is a pretty neat decklist! Quite inspiring. Winter orb in the board looks like a sweet tech, but in what specific matchups do you board it in?

No love for pyroclasm, disrupt or submerge?

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Originally Posted by Smog

What is the general concensus in regards to countertop or trigon in a canadian thrash build? Or does their inclusion take it too far from tradition for the deck to even be called that?

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I tried out Canadian Trash w/Trygon @ the Binghamton Duel for Duals tournament. I was thinking there was going to be a lot of Dreadstill & Merfolk so I tried to plan accordingly

Went 3-2-1 into the top 16 (bleh). Heres what I played:

Main Deck:
Lands (18):
2 Foothills
2 Strand
2 Delta
3 Trop
3 Volcanic
3 Wasteland
1 Island
1 Mountain
1 Forest

Creatures (10):
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Nimble Mongoose
3 Trygon Predator

Spells (32):
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 FoW
4 Spell Snare
4 Stifle
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Fire/Ice
3 Daze
1 Rushing River
1 Wipe Away

Silly Sideboard:
2 MERFOLK ASSASSIN
2 REB
2 Pyroblast
1 Volcanic Fallout
2 Firespout
2 Disrupt
1 Fire/Ice
2 Echoing Truth
1 Krosan Grip

I threw the deck together 10 minutes before heading out to the tournament, I had never played it before round 1:

Round 1 -forgot to record his name, oops- (UWb) Landstill: (Loss 0-2 / 0-1 Total).
Game 1: Landstill does what it does, he has an answer for everything I play and eventually finished me w/Solider tokens.

Game 2: I mulligan to five, the game still takes FOREVER, I end up losing to DOUBLE Eternal Dragon beats.

Round 2 Josh playing Merfolk: (Win 2-0 / 1-1 Total).
Game 1: I see all four bolts and 2 Fire/Ice. His dudes stand no chance, and I get there w/Tarmo Beats.

Game 2: I side in 4 Blasts, the 2 Assassins and my sweepers. Land a Trygon Predator that mauls his Vials. Blasts/burn clean up his dudes and eventually I finish him w/double bolt to the dome.

Round 3 Ryan playing UW Dreadstill: (Tie 1-1 / 1-1-1 Total).
Game 1: I land an early Mongoose, and ride him to victory, countering everything relevant.

Game 2: I try the same strategy w/Tarmogoyf, I manage to get him to 1 life before he finally deals w/the goyf. We go into top-deck mode, except he has a Top and I don't, he finds Counterbalance before I find a burn spell. Eventually time is called and we head into turns, he eventually gets me w/Trinket Mage + Factory beats on the last possible turn. D:.

Round 4 Eric Playing GB Rock: (Win 2-0 / 2-1-1 Total).
Game 1: He gets mana boned. Quick victory w/a turn 2 tarm. I don't side at all.

Game 2: He chooses to play, drops a fetch and cracks it for a Bayou before I have stifle mana open. I do however, have a wasteland, and it ends up wrecking him to the point of not playing any other spells the entire game.

Round 5 Brian Playing UGb Confidant Thresh: (Win 1-1-1, 3-1-1 Total).
Game 1: All these games were good, stressful, and tended to swing back and forth. I managed to win game one on the back of a turn 1 Nimble Mongoose. I try to keep his threats off the table w/countermagic & burn, I eventually win by EOT Wipe Awaying his Tarm to get in there for 3 w/the goose, and then toss a bolt at his face.

Game 2: We trade Geese early, and then he Reanimate's mine and starts beating me with it. (he be disrespectin' the goose O_O!) He lands Confidant, it almost kills him flipping things like FoW, but he smother's it in time and eventually gets me w/Tarmo + Mongeese beats.

Game 3: We enter into a more back and forth kind of game. Eventually we go into turns, both at super low life, neither of us manage to kill the other. I go "damn, can't make it w/another tie.." He thinks for a minute, decides he's not going to make top 8 either way, and graciously scoops to me so I can have a chance at getting in if I win the next round. Awesome dude.

Round 6 Anthony Playing Merfolk (Loss 1-2 / 3-2-1 Total)
While shuffling up we discuss some of the matchup's, he asks how my merfolk matchup seems to be, I told him: "It seems pretty good, hopefully that's what you're playing?" and his buddy (Josh, the merfolk guy I beat in round 2) came over and told him to watch out for me, I'm tricky >_>. Turns out Anthony was friends w/my best bud Travis, small world.

With both of us at X-1-1, we're playing for the last spot in the Top 8, which means at least a playset of Duals.

Game 1: Just like game 1 of round two, bolt + fire/ice take care of his dudes, and I get in there with beats. Fast game.

Game 2: I have to mulligan to 5 again, I keep a shakey one lander but I have have ponder and 2x Brainstorm. I see no lands with any of them, and eventually I lose to double Aether Vial beats. Fast game the other direction.

Game 3: See game 2... more mulliganing, more one land hands. My first turn ponder finds nothing useful, I shuffle, draw a brainstorm. He has Daze for my brainstorm, and then wasteland for my only remaining land. I fail to draw any more mana sources and die shortly after.

Well, that match sucked, it was the first match the deck seemed like it wasn't running smoothly. But that happens sometimes.

Anthony went on to wreck the top 8 and take the top 2 split, which I know I wouldn't have done (2 Ichorid decks in there, that I had ZERO plan against outside of E-Truthing Zombie Tokens), so good for him.

I ended up in exactly 16th place, taking home some store credit.

Final Thoughts:
Trygon Predator: was ok, he shouldn't be more than a 2 of though if you run him. The flying was more relevant than the destruction ability, I almost always wished he was Serendib Efreet instead.

Fire/Ice: Should have been 4x in the MD, it was just plain good.

Merfolk Assassin: My goal of the day was to wreck someone w/merfolk assassin, unfortunately I never drew him when I did play against merfolk, and every pre-board game against merfolk went better than SB games. He was worth the Laughs when I put him on the table after de-boarding, but that slot should probably be something useful in the future.

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Originally Posted by Henrik

@post above

Hey, that is a pretty neat decklist! Quite inspiring. Winter orb in the board looks like a sweet tech, but in what specific matchups do you board it in?

No love for pyroclasm, disrupt or submerge?

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Depends on the meta. I like Submerge a lot but I still don't see why Disrupt should be good. There are better cards in my opinion. In the meta at that time I also didn't need Clasm and I think Tempo Thresh can do without them very well anyways.

I was considering trying a ugrw build.


// Lands
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [ON] Windswept Heath
1 [ON] Wooded Foothills

3 [A] Tropical Island
2 [R] Volcanic Island
2 [R] Tundra

1 [5E] Island (3)
1 [9E] Forest (3)

// Creatures
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [OD] Nimble Mongoose
2 [DIS] Trygon Predator
2 [OD] Mystic Enforcer

// Spells
4 [5E] Brainstorm
4 [LRW] Ponder

4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [DD2] Daze

4 [B] Lightning Bolt
4 [R] Swords to Plowshares

4 [CS] Counterbalance
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top


Thoughts?

-12 cards with CC2 isn't tech with CB. This curve will weaken CB extremely!
-17 lands don't seem enough to support 4 colours. I'd rather play 18. Alix Hatfield's mana base from the duel for duals looked quite nice (-the dryade land obviously):
4 flooded strand
4 wooded foothills
2 city of brass
2 tropical island
2 tundra
2 volcanic island
1 plateau
1 dryad arbor

UGbw runs cb with an even steeper curve @2 quite successfully.

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Originally Posted by Shugyosha

Depends on the meta. I like Submerge a lot but I still don't see why Disrupt should be good. There are better cards in my opinion. In the meta at that time I also didn't need Clasm and I think Tempo Thresh can do without them very well anyways.

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Agreed, I haven't found disrupt very useful either, but I am quite dependent of both submerge and clasm, since I face a lot of both aggro loam and tribals. But I am interested in your use of winter orb, could you please elaborate on this? What matchups does it come in? I am guessing control such as MUC and landstill, but please, enlighten me of your use of it.

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Originally Posted by Henrik

but I am quite dependent of both submerge and clasm, since I face a lot of both aggro loam and tribals.

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Yeah that's exactly the matchups I like to run these cards, too.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Henrik

But I am interested in your use of winter orb, could you please elaborate on this? What matchups does it come in? I am guessing control such as MUC and landstill, but please, enlighten me of your use of it.

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Well, in theory they come in against control decks to have something against their lands in case Waste/Stifle didn't screw them during the first turns (which sadly happens quite often when I play). In addition to MUC and LS they are also meant to be used against Rock and Survival (not the Elf variant). I tried them against Loam but they are too shaky here because of Mox Diamond.
Overall I wasn't satisfied with Winter Orb in the board, though. You don't have Werebear/Vial like Winterthresh and its often kinda dead because the problem is already on the board or their manabase is already in ruins. So I would play other cards instead that are more in the "direct answer" department.

Is the red varient of counter threshold better or worse than the white one considering the new natural order "combo" because it seems like white does a better job of keeping them off the board with counter top and farmers than red does as farmers gets the goyf before they play natural order and counter balance makes sure goose doesnt land to be food.

What do we bring against enchantress and angelstax? PoP? Have you guys tested Divert? I'm going to test that weekend, just wondering that to cut from side.. -1x pyroblast, -1x pyroclasm and -1x hydroblast? Just expecting many EvaGreens and MBS so it would make cut against them :)

The meta slots were filled with F/I (which was ok) and Snakeform (which was aweful)

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Originally Posted by spirit of the wretch

The meta slots were filled with F/I (which was ok) and Snakeform (which was aweful)

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Ok, testing has shown that submerge is the nuts (at least vs Team America), but disrupt has been very weak. This is the board I have so far:

4 Submerge
2 Krosan Grip
4 REB
2 Pyroclasm

3 open slots

I'm not sure I'm comfortable with only 2 clasms/aggro slots, and it could use more artifact removal in the form of another grip or two or possibly some trygon predators. Is boarding in Commandeers and a Progenitus too cute? Right now, the slots are the 3rd grip and 2 threads (do I need these with submerge?).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MULocke

Ok, testing has shown that submerge is the nuts (at least vs Team America), but disrupt has been very weak. This is the board I have so far:

4 Submerge
2 Krosan Grip
4 REB
2 Pyroclasm

3 open slots

I'm not sure I'm comfortable with only 2 clasms/aggro slots, and it could use more artifact removal in the form of another grip or two or possibly some trygon predators. Is boarding in Commandeers and a Progenitus too cute? Right now, the slots are the 3rd grip and 2 threads (do I need these with submerge?).

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i replaced my submerges with relics and i think they are more relevant across the board

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MULocke

Ok, testing has shown that submerge is the nuts (at least vs Team America), but disrupt has been very weak. This is the board I have so far:

4 Submerge
2 Krosan Grip
4 REB
2 Pyroclasm

3 open slots

I'm not sure I'm comfortable with only 2 clasms/aggro slots, and it could use more artifact removal in the form of another grip or two or possibly some trygon predators. Is boarding in Commandeers and a Progenitus too cute? Right now, the slots are the 3rd grip and 2 threads (do I need these with submerge?).

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I like the board but +1 clasm seems important. Also commandeers seem awsome in the mirror when played carefuly getting CBs tops and natural orders (Even with no progen) is a 3/4 for 1 depending on how you look at it

-1 natural order
-1 Green man
-1 proge
+1 goyf for you

You actualy net a card in this exchange but to be honest commandeer seems REALLY greedy, if your terribly afrade of progenist just play reins of power. Its really funny that a 2UU Deal 10 to you burn spell exists but it does infact exist. I dont think that the 10/10 will make a huge impact but if it does reins of power seems like an awsome answer. I bolt you at EOT putting you at 9/10 swing with your own prog win.

Its also great against dreadnaught and stalker.

<---- Knows his crappy tempest cards.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sauce

i replaced my submerges with relics and i think they are more relevant across the board

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I tested relics too, but they had nowhere the impact that submerge did. The problem (speaking mostly towards the mirror and TA) is that it hurts you, too and it's really hard to keep their creatures small and off the table while keeping your own big. Sumberge has a definite and game-swinging impact on the board, and they're free. I can see them helping against loam as well, but submerge is really solid there, too. The only place where relic is better is against ichorid, which a few slots don't really help enough to swing the match in your favor.

@undone: commandeer seems great if it works, but really greedy. The real problem is that I need to hold onto my blue spells while staying in the game. Is it useful anywhere else? What do we think about threads for the goyf war and dreadstill?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MULocke

@undone: commandeer seems great if it works, but really greedy. The real problem is that I need to hold onto my blue spells while staying in the game. Is it useful anywhere else? What do we think about threads for the goyf war and dreadstill?

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Commandeer is infact very greedy. Thats the point. If you want it the next best targets to my knowlage are counter, top, FoF, Intution, and anything that grants CA, but they are SO greedy I wouldnt advise it.

Threads is a great way to win the war but with the mass of annoying prog and dreadstill sucks ;) but seriously seems like due to our large burn suite we should just play reins of power it also solves you hidiously bad aggro loam matchup just dont spend the waste lands on wasteing.

Im not saying its a great answer but if your concerned about just large men it is infact one of the best answers.

Threads seems like the best overall answer followed by sower/control magic (Sower seems worse unless they have predator/grip)

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Originally Posted by undone

Commandeer is infact very greedy. Thats the point. If you want it the next best targets to my knowlage are counter, top, FoF, Intution, and anything that grants CA, but they are SO greedy I wouldnt advise it.

Threads is a great way to win the war but with the mass of annoying prog and dreadstill sucks ;) but seriously seems like due to our large burn suite we should just play reins of power it also solves you hidiously bad aggro loam matchup just dont spend the waste lands on wasteing.

Im not saying its a great answer but if your concerned about just large men it is infact one of the best answers.

Threads seems like the best overall answer followed by sower/control magic (Sower seems worse unless they have predator/grip)

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I'm not really sure I'm happy with four-mana answers with only 14 real lands, and something really narrow like commandeer seems weak as well. That's why I'm proposing threads right now. My other thought with threads is that I can probably get away with two pyroclasms that way (maybe?). Another option is predators to shore up the dreadstill and stax matchups.

Predator is too slow and fragile in this deck. It always sucked for me. Ancient Grudge is the Artifact hate to go if you are looking for something that complements Grip. It's an extremely hard hitting card against Dreadstill, Affinity and Landstill.

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Originally Posted by Shugyosha

Predator is too slow and fragile in this deck. It always sucked for me. Ancient Grudge is the Artifact hate to go if you are looking for something that complements Grip. It's an extremely hard hitting card against Dreadstill, Affinity and Landstill.

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The problem with grudge is that it doesn't hit counterbalance, deed, or humility. I guess I could have one or two for stax, but predator seems beter for that.

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Originally Posted by MULocke

The problem with grudge is that it doesn't hit counterbalance, deed, or humility. I guess I could have one or two for stax, but predator seems beter for that.

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I hate grudge if you dont expect 1X10^100 affinity decks

More grips is fine infact with the above SB I would make my board

2 Threads
2 Clasm
3 Grip
2 REB
2 pyroblast
4 submerge (or should it be 3 and a 3rd clasm)

what about changing mongeese for lavamancers?