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sdt in play and 1uu in pool enable the following, even with no cards in hand:
IU
LED
LED
night's whisper
Lab man
-switch top, draw IU
-iu (1 in pooL), draw sdt, LED, LED
-play sdt (0 in pooL)
-LED, LED, break LEDS (uuubbb)
-switch top, whisper (uuub)
-top, Lab man,
-switch top, gg
This one isn't really anti-stifle, as the opponent may stifle the sdt :PQuote:
Originally Posted by GoboLord
I don't really see when this would be better thanQuote:
Originally Posted by [reptiLe]
SDT +1UU
IU
LED
GP
LED
B. Wish
7 Storm +DDay.
The kill is different, sure, but the piles are limited and lab man is totally useless pre-combo compared to something like burning wish. Keeping the "cards-that-suck" count down to have better opening hands is key.
"you go to 4 life, I gain 16, your turn."Quote:
Originally Posted by rsaunder
Of course it sucks to run Lab Man, I was simply giving a win-pile that's independent from the opponent's life total, doesn't cost a ton of mana, and doesn't require a storm count.
Gotcha. Thought it was being legitimately advocated, and I've gotta assume you're kidding with the 7-storm-dday pile-not-being-lethal thing.
EDIT: Huh, LM gets around some weird stuff. Anyone have thoughts on... better piles?
Here is basically the same pile in a "pas the turn" fashion:Quote:
Originally Posted by [reptiLe]
You need: SDT in play and 0 mana!
LED
IU
LED
Gitaxian Probe
Lab Man
Drawphase: Draw LED
play LED
tap SDT, crack LED in resp for UUU
play IU (U floating), drawing: SDT, LED, GP
play LED (U floating)
play SDT for U
play GP for 2 life, crack LED in resp for UUU
tap SDT for the win
//Edit: now that i'm thinking of it: Lab Man also has a point agains Spiral Tide (and, yeah: I know they can bounce him, just like they can counter your Chants or deal with whatever hate they face).
Again: This is about creating cheaper piles that can completely ignore Gaddock Teeg/Aven Mindcensor (protected by MoR). My goal was to build efficient (read: cheap) piles without placing bounce in it that can win through this.
Lab Man is interesting, but the win scenarios are very narrow. The only cases I see Lab Man coming in are:
1) Meddling Mage/Nevermore effects played by decks with little disruption e.g. FoWless Bant builds and Enchantress.
2) You need a pile that beats Stifle
3) Beats Leyline of Sanctity, Runed Halo, and Solitary Confinement effects (a little narrow but still relevant)
Against storm/combo, Lab Man is too slow, against countertop, Shelldock Isle is better, against heavy counter, a pass-the-turn Lab Man pile isn't as good as a storm pile building storm off opponent's spells. But Lab Man is pretty cool with DD though :D
The 0-cost of the pile isn't a huge benefit since it's a pass-the-turn pile. You can build many pass-the-turn piles that use little or no mana. My favorite is Helm/SDT/SDT/Grapeshot pass-the-turn or no-pass-the-turn piles in the cases where you need to fight multiple hate bears.
You get a pass the turn pile as 1UU with an extremely obvious pile of:
IU
LED
Probe
SDT
Lab Manaic
This has no requirements on cards in hand, can be used as a win this turn pile if you have Probe/Ponder/Preordain/Brainstorm in hand, and has minimal life requirements (3 life post-DD).
Lab Maniac is still terrible, but you people suck at making Lab Maniac piles.
Laboratory Maniac is interesting but ... is it needed? It dies to every relevant removal/burn spell in the format. What situations would you actually want this in? Emrakul makes some insanely cheap piles, wins through Teeg, and requires no storm either. The only thing I like about LM is that you can throw him out there turn 3 if u drew it and try to draw out counters or start attacking. Aside from that I really don't see a need for it at all. Its cool as hell but .... why would you ever run it?
how would -any- pile be immune to aven mindcensor, given the ability of the mindcensor to limit doomsday to the top 4 cards of the library + the graveyard?Quote:
Originally Posted by GoboLord
holy crap, how much bad feedback can one get from a fuckin' random example, chill off dudes...Quote:
Originally Posted by emidln
only post sb if creatures are totally unexpected, which is pretty unlikely since dark confidants are quite common anyhow... I simply see it as random excercise with dd piles (which I'm definitely not good at, as I've been playing straight tendrils as of forever and never have remotely considered dd as viable, at least in the italian metagame) :PQuote:
Originally Posted by Pulp_Fiction
And how is this pile better than the one I suggested?Quote:
Originally Posted by emidln
I mean: my requirement was 0 mana and a SDT in play. Your requirement was 1UU. Those are just two different things to start with. I wanted to point out that a singleton Lab Man in SB can save you some SB-slots for bounce-spells. That's it.
Saying that we suck at making Lab Maniac piles is not helpful if you dont explain yourself.
@ [reptiLe]: Aven Mindcensor is not tutorable via GSZ. So they have to rely on topdecking one. The chances on that happening during the first 3 turns are quite low. The Lab Man pass-the-turn-pile is a very fast as it basically only requires you to cast DD. Then you either need 1UU floating (as emildin suggested) or a SDT in play (my suggestion). Being fast is an answer to Aven Mindcensor here.
Plus, this Pile plays around Gaddock Teeg with mother-protection.
Makes sense :) Unfortunately here in Italy aven is played as a 3-of in most maverick lists, but i guess i can thoutseize on turn 1/2 before dding. Anyhow, it's pretty pointless to worry about maverick at all in the first place as it's one of our easiest matchups, and infest/virtue's ruin solve any problem pretty well.Quote:
Originally Posted by GoboLord
There is a huge difference between a pile requiring a card in your hand, specifically BS/PON/SDT v.s. a pile that doesn't require a draw spell in your hand. That's the subtle but BIG difference. post-DD, you should at least have 3 mana anyway so building a pile that requires a kick start of 3 mana and no card-requirement in hand is easier to fulfill than having the scenario where you need a BS/PON/SDT to go off. Furthermore, emdlin's pile will win on the turn instead of PTT (Pass-the-turn) if you have a BS/PON/SDT in hand. Your pile isn't bad, but emdlin's one is better for more general situations i.e. I can hardly think of a situation where I would have zero mana post-DD v.s. a situation where I need to build a pile that's dependent on having BS/PON/SDT in hand/play.Quote:
Originally Posted by GoboLord
@Top-decking Aven Mindcensor. If decks played the bird, they will not be playing a lone copy, so top-decking is no more different than you top-decking your spells as well.
The only benefit I see from Lab Maniac in DD (I think it's still terrible but who knows, some of us thought SFM/Batterskull was terrible, myself included) is that it only takes 1 slot v.s. the 2 slots for Helm/Grapeshot or SI/Emrakul (3 slots for SI/Emrakul if you intend to play CoF). This maybe very relevant and a big plus. BUT the drawback is that if they keep their bolts/StPs in, you're in big trouble unless you have a pile with Chant/Duress. A little brainstorming shows that Labman could be good against Teeg/Canonist (Zoo, Maverick) but that's not true since these decks keep in their burn/removal. Labman could be good against countertop except it doesn't beat an active countertop where Emrakul does. In the end, the 1 slot v.s. 2-3 slots doesn't seem to outweigh when you can't reliably pull off wins in those difficult scenarios. Anyway, this is all my theorizing, but I don't think I could be too far off.
Lab Man probably owns Enchantress easily if they get like 10 hate-cards out (Leyline/Confinement/Runed Halo) etc, but Enchantress is usually an auto-win unless they stack multiple hate-cards too fast.
I've tried doomsday decks in the past, but haven't done very well with them, CBT, Merfolk and BUG decks have always been scary. The counterspells backed by disruption and pressure in BUG, and the high pressure and cheap counters of folk are quite scary, and CBT is obvious. So what are some suggestions for beating that kind of deck? Everything I've seen (here and in stormboards) seems way too all-in for me.
If your metagame is full of Aven Mindcensor you should consider Dread of Night.
Dread of Night also solves the problem of a Teeg protected by Mother of Runes...very fine from my point of view.
As far as mind sensor is concerned, this deck does not need to waiste a sb slot for a rare occurence. Being faster to set up is pretty irrelavent as the 4probe+Ideas Unbound+burning wish lists have verry consistent turn 2 kills when uninterruted.
Before the MM printing I was running Darkblast with pretty decent results. I ran it as a 2-of and it basically solves most of the problems u guys are talking about and takes away most of the relevant clocks control decks have. The only hate bear it doesn't kill is Canonist for obvious reasons :)
I attened a tourney yesterday with the following list:
//Mana
4 P. Delta
4 Sc. Tarn
2 U. Sea
3 Tundra
1 V. Island
1 Badlands
1 Island
1 Swamp
4 LED
3 L. Petal
4 D. Rit
1 Rain of Filth
//Business
4 Chant
3 Silence
4 SDT
4 Ponder
4 BS
3 Gitaxian Probe
1 IU
3 Doomsday
4 BW
1 ToA
//Sideboard
1 ToA
1 DD
1 EtW
1 Gitaxian Probe
1 Silent Departure
1 Duress
1 Meditate
1 Slaugther Pact
2 Chain of Vapor
1 Echoing Truth
1 Hurkyll's Recall
1 Laboratory Maniac <3
2 Angels Grace :'(
I went 4-3, losing to:
* MUD (1-2) due to 7 Chalices in 3 games. LAb Maniac won me a game.
* The Gate (0-2) due to 4 Hymns to Awsomeness
* Belcher (1-2) due to FAIL.
I won against:
* UW Stone Blade feat. Enlightened Tutor Toolbox (SToney Silence, Cannonist, Chalice, Rule of Law): 2-0
* BUG Team America/Deedstill- Hybrid with Snapcaster Mages (2-1)
* Spiral Tide (2-1) Lab Man <3
* UBw ANT (2-0) My opp was just tired and somewhat confused.
I've been running a list with out white and with 3 duress and 3 thoughseize.
What are the reasons to run silence/chant over discard?
Chant and silence are better than discard if:
- the oppoent holds two Force of Will and one blue card
- the opponent has some Spell Snares and/or Stifles
- the opponent has a Snapcaster Mage with a counterspell in his Graveyard as his only counter
- you want to combo with Ill-Gotten Gains
- you play versus another storm deck
Hmm... It's really hard to choose an optimal list of this deck.
Would you guys post your lists and tell me the pros and cons?
I'm really into 3/4 duress and 3/4 silence in the MD, as Bryant Coook runs in his TES.
I would second that, and I think what's important is consistency.Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlatan
Sorry, but I didn't understand what you wrote. Could you explain?Quote:
Originally Posted by nayon
I play what is essentially the old German list but I've cut white for 7 duress effects over chants - I much prefer being somewhat proactive in taking cards and gaining information. The manabase now is also completely stable and beautiful and with 17 land and no white I can run 3 basics.Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlatan
I've switched back to meditate over IU because of snare which I'm sure people will contest against but - hell, it just feels right.
1 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Sensei's Diving Top
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Doomsday
4 Dark Ritual
2 Cabal Ritual
1 Meditate
1 Rain of Filth
4 Duress
3 Thoughtseize
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Tendrils of Agony
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
1 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
1 Island
2 Swamp
2 Underground Sea
I might swap over to 4 thoughtseize and 3 duress simply because of clique.
Iv'e been playing with out IT in Md, only one copy in the SB. And beend oing well.
I've add 3 probe and it's nut. I will do some tests and post my list soon.
I'm kind new with this deck. Could you explain the roll of rain of filth in this deck?
Once, somebody told me that was against needle naming LED...
I take it from your first idea that you're playing the red list with Burning Wish - otherwise I'm just not sure what you would play in place of IT.. maybe LDV?Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlatan
I ran probe when I played red with ideas unbound. Yes, the mana requirements for piles with probe are bonkers low and being able to jump into a pile with one less mana is nice, but has been rarely all that relevant. I really do just prefer meditate piles.
Rain of filth is dark ritual number 5. Once you have more than three lands, its simply better than Dark Ritual. If someone does name LED with needle you can do things with rain like tap down all your mana for blue, sac it for black and build your piles with rits instead of LEDs.
Hmm, pithing needle naming LED does not even do anything, so this is an odd reason. I'd say it's kind of the 5th dark ritual.
Ehrm... Revoker.Quote:
Originally Posted by MWR
I don't know why but people tend to forget that you resolved a Rain of Filth. Some spells later they think they can get you wit Daze and Spell Pierce, which you can pay out of your lands.
RoF is basically Dark Rit Nr. 5. so it fixes your mana for DD (BBB) while producing BBBB or even BBBBB sometimes.
My experience isn't so great that I can speak for anyone other than myself, the cost of Ideas Unbound has been really restrictive for me. I find it much easier to only need one blue mana to go off, but I'm going to keep testing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chikenbok
People will always have differing opinions on IU v. meditate; I know I've just stuck with meditate the entire time, I don't like IU too much on paper due to the double blue cost and meditate can occasionally be used outside DD piles against control to just destroy them; either they FoW your EoT meditate or they get one more turn to do what they want then you crush them on your turn due to you having a ridiculous number of cards in hand.
Went 2-2 last weekend with the german list -2 ponder +2 gitaxian probe. Should have went 3-1 but I was slightly rusty with the deck and I punted twice against goblins after winning game 1. Game 2 he mulled to 3 cards and started with leyline of the void and said go without doing anything. The game went on he got some board presence with a rishadan port. I did a pass the turn pile with 2 top's in play. I EoTed drew with one top into meditate. During my upkeep I had 3 lands untapped then he tapped one with port and I like a moron didn't float mana and cast meditate from hand. I had no doomsday in the pile and couldn't pull it out before he killed me. The last game I went infernal tutor with lotus petal exiled due to leyline of the void yet again and me having exact mana to combo off but I floated only BBB + UUUU so I misplayed again when I was thinking about it later on; I had top in play, I could have used top to draw into a doomsday pile of meditate, LED, LED, GP, tendrils to kill him but I forgot that line of play since I rarely use GP in doomsday piles and I just went for the hail mary meditate, drew into tendrils but I didn't have enough mana to switch tops enough to then tendrils him since I drew only one dark ritual in my 4 cards. I really like the deck overall it was just frustrating punting 2 games and losing in part to leyline of the void both games since without leyline I could just IGG loop goblins out with ease.
I love rain of filth. It enables threshold and can be a really powerful ritual sometimes. Granted it sucks turns 1 and 2 but after that it's usually golden. I also love how my opponents read the card every time :tongue:
I was praticing some piles from emdlin sheets. And I couldn't figure out how this works:
In Hand===Mana==== Storm=====Pile=========Tutor
BS IGG======U======10=====SW LED LED PN BW==TOA
How does it work?
I am not intending to be offensive in the least but it is going to come off that way. I have been posting on these threads a long time ... anyone ... ANYONE who asks what are the differences between Chants and Duress effects as protection spells should not be playing DD. It is always posted by people with little to no experience with combo decks. I feel like a broken record, play something easier like ANT. Get experience, and these questions will answer themselves. Everything depends on your meta .... pure and simple. This is why DD is so hard to play correctly, 1/2 the time the piles are just straight off the sheets ... but the other half are improved on the spot ... u have to understand storm combo. Fuck, I won 2 seperate games against Manaless Dredge by Infernal Tutoring into a Meditate stack two games in a row because apparently I don't run cantrips. The point of this is not to be a dick, but if you don't know what decks different protection spells are good against, sorry, ur in the wrong thread.
That pile does not work from what I can tell ... it needs another card in hand to be relevant. But here is how it would work w three cards in hand:
Brainstorm (1), drawing SW, LED, LED put back IGG and second random card from hand.
LED (2) LED (3), cycle SW stack it and blow up LEDS for UUUBBB.
Draw and cast IGG (4) with UU floating and bring back BS, LED, LED.
LED (5) LED (6) BS (7) stack it and blow up LEDs for BBBRRR.
Draw Ponder w Brainstorm and cast it with the U floating (8).
Burning Wish (9) for Tendrils (10). Since you cast DD this turn it ends up being exactly 11 assuming there is no ritual or Petal played beforehand.
@Meditate VS IU: All preference to me. We don't need another debate, each has their perks. I have always hated IU since I have won quite a few games, especially against blue control by just playing EOT Meditate. Also, with Top in play, double Dark Ritual + U ends the game fairly often. Threshed Cabal Rituals are also awesome, I have ritualed into Meditate numerous times where I haven't had access to UU. I also do not like how reliant on Probe they are becoming .... especially needing to have 5 life to combo off rather than 2. And the SS thing but ... more so Meditate being a spell, that on turn 4-5, if I have Top in play and can't find anything relevant, the hail mary play will get there on occassion. Point is, Meditate is almost always good and when I ran IU I just hated casting it cause I net -1 cards and it just sat in my hand.
@Pulp, I don't think anyone would really ever disagree that you're one of the founding fathers of both playing, and engineering this deck and for that, thanks - I've really only got one serious year of practice down with it.
But on another note, while yes - everyone is tired of hearing white vs. black - iu vs meditate, sometimes its important just to keep dialogue going. This time we got some information regarding working through a cantrip pile - so, at least we got something out of it.
@Dark Rit - how did you feel replacing 2 ponders with 2 probes? I usually find lines of play being something like, turn 1 cantrip, turn 2 top/discard spell, turn 3 win. Ponder helps a lot in that regard but I'd like to know how you felt with the probes in the deck, were they for piles?
I love probes for information as well as them being a free albeit 2 life cantrip. They are occasionally useful in piles but usually I do the standard pile of meditate, LED x2, petal, tendrils with top in play but with brainstorm/ponder/probe the LED's are obviously dark rit's. I love the digging power of ponder I really do but probe is quite handy. I also love when you draw into a pile with probe since it's free like top so long as you have 5 or more life pre DD. In this regard it speeds you up as well; I can just go turn 1 duress, coast is clear turn 2 LED, dark rit, doomsday, probe, crack LED, meditate, and the rest for lethal. And it is also extremely helpful for knowing how much time you have before you *must* combo since I generally only want to go off when I need to go off sans against control where I go off as soon as the coast is clear.
Has anyone tried snapcaster mage in this deck at all? I've thought about it but I'm not sure if SCM is a card we can abuse. I like the interaction with LED but I'm not too sure if SCM is really needed.
Today. I practice against a Death&Taxes with so much hate that I couldn't win one game.
4 Leonin Arbiter
2 canonist
4 Revoker
2 White tuor
A really tough. And I couldnt go off on turn 1-2.
I mean: I also think that it is hard to find an optimal decklist, so if someone could give pros and cons of different decklists, I'd also appreciate it. However, I also think that I would rather be consistent than fast, I'd rather not lose to bad draws of my own deck, and if it means sacrificing t1 wins I'm fine with that. So I would like to have an emphasis on consistency when listing the pros and cons of different decklists.Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlatan
On the whole "IU vs. Meditate" debate, there are really two ways to break things down. There are obviously exceptions, but with the printing of Gitaxian Probe, things have kind of split into:
Run Ideas Unbound:
-2-4 Probes
-Most likely Burning Wish
-Probably cut Cabal Rituals, etc.
-Probably cut Ill-Gotten Gains
Run Meditate:
-Usually no probes (which is debatable)
-Most likely Infernal tutor
-Keep Cabal Ritual and IGG
Obviously, Cabal Ritual and Ideas Unbound don't work very well together, so one has to go. Without Cabal Ritual, getting UU for Ideas Unbound is fairly easy and isn't nearly as bad as everyone says it is. Gitaxian probe is much stronger with IU than with Meditate.
So, it really comes down to:
IU Lists:
Pros
-Most cost-efficient piles possible in Doomsday (running 16 cantrips is really strong)
-Probe is great for checking your opponents hand for counters.
-Redundancy of Burning Wish is really strong (effectively 7 DD, 5 IU, and 11-12 protection spells.)
-Burning wish is very strong at dealing with hatebears like Gaddock Teeg with cards like Deathmark and Silent Departure.
Cons
-Manabase is usually 3-4 colors
-Between Thoughtseize, Probe, DD and fetches, you need to keep an eye on your life total moreso than other lists.
-More vulnerable to Spell Snare
Meditate Lists:
Pros
-Piles' color requirements are slightly easier.
-If you have a top in play, you can Infernal Tutor -> DD.
-Infernal Tutor -> IGG can be really strong.
-Can have a more stable manabase, but this varies between lists (2-4 colors).
Cons
-Piles are more expensive.
-Infernal Tutor is often a dead card without LED.
-Ill-Gotten Gains is usually a terrible card to draw on its own.
-Fewer cantrips.
There are almost certainly points I have missed, but this is what it boils down to. In my mind, Ideas Unbound is almost certainly stronger. If any of you haven't tried playing IU with 4 Probes, I highly recommend you give it a try. That being said, if you find yourself in a meta with lots of Spell Snares and wastelands, Meditate may be a better option for you.
Charlatan, the reason you won't find an optimal list is that each person plays differently, and since this deck is based on being able to mass tutor for any five cards you would need in any situation, you will find that the deck is more customizable than in other archetypes because the chance of you seeing your random one-of cards is almost completely guaranteed.
The breakdown on Ideas Unbound v. Meditate as has been laid out is good. I was just about to write a post about how I feel like it's really hard to kill on turn one or two with the color requirements of Ideas Unbound, but I decided to come up with a few scenarios on paper first before I looked like an idiot, and well, I guess I'll be trying out IU a bit more because Probe makes it possible with little to no hassle. We'll see when I actually get the chance to play in a tournament.
It should also be said, regarding serrated's post above that Infernal Tutor can also be played as virtual cards #x-y. Playing out an infernal tutor when you have the rest of the win in your hand, and then going to find a second duress, second LED, or second ritual is many times exactly what you need to win a game.
Having IT counterspelled when not relying on it to be hellbent? Nice duress bro.
I finally, after quite a long time switched back to playing meditate without any probes in the list. It was simply a call due to inability to draw into my tendrils at the bottom of the pile with no mana/no blue mana because I was at either 1 or 2 life and probe would have killed me.
Also, I don't know about you guys, but spell snare is back HARD right now in the north east (along with its pals: stifle and wasteland). So meditate is a must for me. I've cut white opting for only black protection and manabase resiliency, and jammed 4 swarm 3 CoF back into my board.
There was an argument against never beating thresh without white, but game 2 and 3 with swarm and CoF makes the fight much, much easier.