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We don't understand how your understandable hate for the delver circlejerk links to your suggestion to break the format in halfQuote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
Change gameplans? The deck has only 1 damn gameplan! "drop delver and ensure your opponent isn't killing the Delver or yourself before he drops dead"Quote:
Originally Posted by testing32
How would this look like without the hyperbole? Of course your arguments sound solid to you if they are based on imaginary figures, which you even admit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
In the other eternal format, vintage, pretty much every deck tries to play as many of the formats broken bombs as possible. Legacy is no different. Stagnant format with a dominating deck is surely problematic but that doesn't seem to be the case here. People can't even figure out if the best deck is blue burn, miracle control or some of the tempo decks. Or even elves or monowhite. Also, new cards find their way to decks all the time, so to speak.
Force of Will is a crutch that people are "forced" to play because the rest of the blue shell is so good. In that situation it's hard to justify not playing a free counter that will have at least 19 buddies to pitch to it in your list. This despite the fact that you'd only lose on turn 0 about 10% of the time in it's absence and that the lists that will do that tend to be glass cannons that lose more than half the time to obvious hate that can land as early as turn 1 for you.
As people have pointed out FoW isn't even a particularly good card. It's a security blanket that occasionally saves your ass and that deeply discourages many strategies that would otherwise exist in it's absence, primarily fast mana for permanents. The higher the penetration of Force of Will in a metagame the lower the penetration of Dark Ritual for example.
So it's silly to advocate banning cards based on your definition of fun.Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
I disagree. There have been many games where a turn 2 brainstorm + fetch turns a delver hand from bolts and dudes into spell pierces/dazes/FoW or vise versa. A good brainstorm can end the game on the spot.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
But it isn't to do so based on ones definition of whats healthy for a format? It's subjective all the same. That also goes for your conclusion of it being silly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Star|Scream
Because I can. The same way someone once suggested we should put a man on the moon (yes, with some attempts to do so having tragical and horrible consequences).Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
Well now you're just playing semantics. Health of the format is far less subjective than "boring" to play against.Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
Lol, no it isn't. How does one objectively measure subjectiveness?Quote:
Originally Posted by Star|Scream
Caring for the health of the format ... by chopping off the head of 70% of decks, leaving only Belcher, Elves, Jund and 12-Post back as the big winners. The last time such a drastic ban orgy happened, it killed VintageQuote:
Originally Posted by Star|Scream
Also, for everybody non-Lemnear (since he seems to get it) - I'm trying to discuss the banning of an entire shell.
Why? Meh, why not? Instead of bitching about a single card (FoW at the moment, apparently), try considering what'd happen if the entire shell were to disappear (other than OMG-GLASSCANNONS), just because. But that seems to be too much of a challenge for most since you're only focussing on 1 card.
Let's leave it at Lemnear's final comment and call it a day, shall we?
You don't, you define how you measure the health in a set, provable manner. Ask someone playing standard in 2004 how healthy the format was, ask Wizards how many people quit. That's all very definable.Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
omg.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hopo
I seriously consider account desactivation.
Except what you'd want is to commit to a chain of banning since banning FoW would mean this format would be as bad against combo as modern is, and then you have to get 50+ banned cards on the list. At which point you get modern with duals, and who care? A single ban to weaken a dominant archetype wouldn't remove any archetype from the format, wouldn't require any more ban subsequential to it, and would open the space for many T1.5 strats to become actually viable.Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
What you're proposing make no sense in a real eternal format imho. Banning 10+ cards for a slightly different modern? I don't see the appeal.
Honestly, I think Wizards would be more likely to ban Delver than BS, and I'm not sure that Wizards would be clearly in the wrong. However, that would kill most tempo decks in the format, and I'm not sure that that is such a good move.
Daze, Hymn, Counterspell and Flusterstorm aren't cards now? O_o'Quote:
Originally Posted by Gheizen64
Tempo existed before DelverQuote:
Originally Posted by Darkenslight
None of them stop a Glass cannon that won the die roll and went first....Quote:
Originally Posted by Zombie
Hymn and Counterspell are not active until your second turn.
FoW if not a good card, it is a NECESSARY card to keep Glass Cannon combo's in check.
BS is a powerful card that helps ALL deck archetypes. You can easily splash blue for just it, but it does not constrain your deck choices.Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkenslight
Delver is a powerful card that forces you into 1 archtype.
Strong cards that help multiple archetypes are not a problem, Strong cards that define/restrict the playing field/metagame are a problem
Delver is a tempo card, but it is not the only tempo creature, it is just to far ahead of the rest of them, banning it would not remove Tempo as a strategy, but it would be likely to change the makeup of Tempo decks so they are not all the same Delver shell with good cards from whatever colors you are splashing.
Fixed that for you.Quote:
Originally Posted by sjmcc13
Edit: and saying that brainstorm does not constrain your deck choice when 76% of winning decks are running brainstorm is just not true.
Have you played Jund before and looked at a hand with 3 lands and a punishing fire as your opponent casts a brainstorm and proceeds to wreck you? I have and at that moment I questioned the decisions I made in my life that lead to me that point.
You don't play much eternal if you think Force of Will should be banned. Crafting a hand with sufficient blue cards to use Force optimally is one of the thousand things Brainstorm does at instant speed so a Brainstorm ban would at least make Force tougher to use, or make the choice to use it a little tougher.
If Cruise gets banned and Brainstorm it's a sad statement on how out of touch WotC is with eternal. If they do ban Cruise and not Brainstorm at least come out and say something absurd like, 'Pillar of the Format' 'Go play modern' or 'Skill Intensive' in the announcement.
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-O...h516-no/bs.png
It's not even close. Every reason they gave for Misstep applies here, the usage dwarfs Survival, the power level is absolutely laughable compared to some of the cards currently banned.
If they ban cruise they might as well think about banning dig, it's comparable in control to cruise in tempo. The commitment to at least UU might keep it somewhat sane but barely. Ban Brainstorm and be done with this miserable stagnation, make people build decks again. Or unban Mind Twist, Earthcraft, Survival and Black Vise and see if anything changes. hint: it probably won't.
So you're saying we should unban Mental Misstep? Awesome! Love that card.Quote:
Originally Posted by testing32