Miracle Control

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by PhyrexianLibrarian

Ding dong the Dig is dead!

I mean, it's not great that we lose such a good tool, but it seems SUPER great that one of our bad matchups (Omni-Tell) gets so much worse. What are you all replacing yours with?

---

I only played one DTT so it's going to turn into another Counterspell.

But how is Poron now going to win against the MUD decks?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bragi

But how is Poron now going to win against the MUD decks?

---

It does nothing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by exallium

IMHO I think Mentor MD has become unplayable in a control shell. It could have a home in UWR Delver, maybe over stoneforge mystic, but that's a very different deck, and not for discussion here.

Entreat is great again. I do think that Mentor can still see SB play, but don't have the testing to back that up (obviously.)

TLDR I think it ends it.

---

Can you elaborate on why you think the banning of DTT means that Mentor is unplayable in the main and why Entreat gets better?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Beeble416

Can you elaborate on why you think the banning of DTT means that Mentor is unplayable in the main and why Entreat gets better?

---

Mentor incentivizes you to cast your spells as quickly as possible, and DTT allowed you to refill with more cantrips. Mentor is still fine, as there are some decks that can't handle it. But without cheap means of recouping card advantage, I don't think it should be the main wincon.

The other issue is that no Dig means more BGx decks, where EtA is a vastly superior wincon.

As for how the list should adapt, my starting place is Philipp's list from summer 2014

http://www.starcitygames.com/article...r--Part-1.html

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Beeble416

Can you elaborate on why you think the banning of DTT means that Mentor is unplayable in the main and why Entreat gets better?

---

Yeah sure. This isn't completely thought out, but these are the first comments that come to mind.

There are a couple of things to consider here:

• What decks that didn't see play will start seeing play again
• What decks that are seeing play shouldn't see much play anymore
• How Miracles as a deck operates without Dig Through Time

-----
Decks that come back

Off the top of my head, this list includes the following:

1. Jund
2. Sneak and Show
3. BUG Shardless
4. BUG Delver w. Hymn

Basically, a bunch of Abrupt Decay, grindy decks, and a Combo deck that a monkey could pilot.

BUG and Jund Mentor is very good vs. all of these decks, but you need to keep in mind that in Game 1, the difference between having and not having mentor can be the deciding factor in how well their deck can play out their game plan. The BUG decks as well as Jund all have so many tools to take care of Mentor in Game 1, and that leaves them to leaving more of those resources in to fight against mentor in G2.

Sneak and Show Becomes the better Show and Tell deck. Mentor does nothing against this deck, as often enough tapping out for a 3 drop on turn 3 will get you quickly killed, and they don't actually require Show and Tell to go off in the first place. Furthermore, The addition of Sneak Attack makes blast effects worse, whereas Omnitell is now much less likely to consistently find boseiju.

-----
Decks that leave

A few choices would be:

1. Omnitell
2. Grixis Control
3. Grixis Delver

Omnitell will get replaced with Sneak and Show as described above.

Grixis Control loses it's late game. It does not have the continual card advantage provided by Top, and Miracles is well positioned to just grind them out of the game. No dig means no reloading their hand, making a deck full of cantrips and a few lightning bolts / cabal therapies a lot less appealing.

Grixis Delver suffers the same plight as control. This deck might actually try to stick around a little bit, but it's hard to imagine that Pyromancer is nearly as good without a constant stream of resources. What's more, with Terminus and Swords abound, as well as a lot more copies of Toxic Deluge, Grixis Delver will have a much harder time rebuilding through the removal posed by the "new" format. Tarmogoyf, IMO, seems to become the better beater, as you can play the single threat and protect it with reactive spells, instead of needing to be proactive with discard and the like to get more power onto the board. Angler's still very good, but you can't really play it as a 4-of, and Swords or other removal becomes all the more devastating.

-----
How Miracles as a deck operates without Dig Through Time

In a format without Dig Through Time, Miracles stands out as the premier late game control deck of the format. In the way that BUG and Jund like to grind their opponents down with Removal and Discard, we use our removal and our own form of "discard" in Counterbalance, though it does also provide us with a tempo advantage.

Since we are no longer getting payoff through our graveyard in being able to cast an early and devestating dig through time, we are less inclined to run free counterspells like Daze. Without Daze, we no longer really want to be tapping out on turn 3 to try to slam a mentor.

Looking at the decks that should (should being the key word) come in and out of the format, it's quite clear to me that we want to take a step back, and reform to a reactive approach. I'm not sure how far this goes yet. Mentor is still an amazing card, and I believe that it belongs in the board for the time being, but I'm not clear as to what the number should look like.

A reactive approach means Entreat the Angels, which is a reactive win condition (by reactive, I mean I can do it when I want at instant speed.).

With Ovino, Prauge, and GP Seattle coming up, it's going to be an interesting couple of months. This is ofc all speculation.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by exallium

Yeah sure. This isn't completely thought out, but these are the first comments that come to mind.

There are a couple of things to consider here:

• What decks that didn't see play will start seeing play again
• What decks that are seeing play shouldn't see much play anymore
• How Miracles as a deck operates without Dig Through Time

---

Just go to page 200 or so of this thread. Since Sneak and Show returns, Karakas sounds like a good idea about now.

I would still have Mentor in the 75, but most likely a SB card. The ridiculous BS of Miracles "2.0" or Mentor Control will probably become less effective.

My likely changes:

-3 Mentor
-2 DTT
+2 Entreat
+1 Jace (up to 2)
+1 Snapcaster (back to 3 main)
+1 Terminus (back to 4 main)

Replacing the Canonists in the sideboard with maybe the Mentors, or maybe Meddling Mage again? I wish I'd kept my old decklists now.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by twndomn

Just go to page 200 or so of this thread. Since Sneak and Show returns, Karakas sounds like a good idea about now.

I would still have Mentor in the 75, but most likely a SB card. The ridiculous BS of Miracles "2.0" or Mentor Control will probably become less effective.

---

Yeah. I like them in the board, and the number will be highly dependant on the other cards, mainly whether or not I'll run Vendilion Clique.

As for Karakas... It's great vs. Show and Tell but depressingly ineffective against Sneak Attack. I'd sooner, personally, consider Containment Priest or Pithing Needle.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by PhyrexianLibrarian

In fact, does this change the Entreat vs. Mentor debate? Without other decks being able to go from a loss to a win with a well-placed DTT, is there any downside to controlling and durdling until you can Entreat for lethal? Or is it still better to have the early-pressure option of Mentor?

---

I think this ban makes the Mentor version even better, as you can pressure early (and late). DTT was a method for the slower builds to recover from a negative board state and pull ahead. Without DTT, this becomes a bit more difficult to accomplish. Playing Jace against a packed board is often nothing more than a 4-mana Brainstorm or Unsummon. Another factor: even though DTT is banned, I still think Pyroblast is going to be commonly played. Alternatively, Mentor is good at every point in the game and always demands an answer.

So we all know the ponder build of miracles will be fine in this post dig ban meta but i also feel like legends miracles gets stronger to with sneak and show and bgx midrange inevitably starting to show up again

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by PhyrexianLibrarian

is there any downside to controlling and durdling until you can Entreat for lethal?

---

Perhaps a 5-1-3 day 1 finish at a GP?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bragi

But how is Poron now going to win against the MUD decks?

---

double Moon and Mentor pressure.
We have to see how the meta will shift. If we finally run out of all this red I start playing back Jace and Angels.

Both great against Mus

RIP Ponder...

yup, Ponder build is pretty much weakened.. let's see how (non)red the meta will shift now...

Can't wait to play back Jace!

Anyway I agree with this ban, there were only blue decks or punishing blue decks around.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Poron

yup, Ponder build is pretty much weakened.. let's see how (non)red the meta will shift now...

Can't wait to play back Jace!

Anyway I agree with this ban, there were only blue decks or punishing blue decks around.

---

I disagree. While DTT was good in the ponder build it was also one of the best ways to beat ponder miracles. Relative to the format I believe ponder miracles got stronger as DTT was one of the few ways to recoup the card disadvantage of getting ragged on by counterbalance. Miracles was almost a begrudging DTT deck, it played 2 copies and it's strategy didn't revolve around the card. Now that literal card advantage costs BB instead of UU the virtual card advantage of top is going to matter more and more.

Pryoblast still main?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cipher

RIP Ponder...

---

Wait what? SCHONEGGER was playing Ponder at GP Paris And GP NJ. Did he not write enough articles to remind you.... Oh forget it, do whatever you want.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cipher

RIP Ponder...

---

http://archive.wizards.com/Magic/Mag...ar14/welcome#1

?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by exallium

Yeah sure. This isn't completely thought out, but these are the first comments that come to mind.

There are a couple of things to consider here:

• What decks that didn't see play will start seeing play again
• What decks that are seeing play shouldn't see much play anymore
• How Miracles as a deck operates without Dig Through Time

-----
Decks that come back

Off the top of my head, this list includes the following:

1. Jund
2. Sneak and Show
3. BUG Shardless
4. BUG Delver w. Hymn

Basically, a bunch of Abrupt Decay, grindy decks, and a Combo deck that a monkey could pilot.

BUG and Jund Mentor is very good vs. all of these decks, but you need to keep in mind that in Game 1, the difference between having and not having mentor can be the deciding factor in how well their deck can play out their game plan. The BUG decks as well as Jund all have so many tools to take care of Mentor in Game 1, and that leaves them to leaving more of those resources in to fight against mentor in G2.

Sneak and Show Becomes the better Show and Tell deck. Mentor does nothing against this deck, as often enough tapping out for a 3 drop on turn 3 will get you quickly killed, and they don't actually require Show and Tell to go off in the first place. Furthermore, The addition of Sneak Attack makes blast effects worse, whereas Omnitell is now much less likely to consistently find boseiju.

-----
Decks that leave

A few choices would be:

1. Omnitell
2. Grixis Control
3. Grixis Delver

Omnitell will get replaced with Sneak and Show as described above.

Grixis Control loses it's late game. It does not have the continual card advantage provided by Top, and Miracles is well positioned to just grind them out of the game. No dig means no reloading their hand, making a deck full of cantrips and a few lightning bolts / cabal therapies a lot less appealing.

Grixis Delver suffers the same plight as control. This deck might actually try to stick around a little bit, but it's hard to imagine that Pyromancer is nearly as good without a constant stream of resources. What's more, with Terminus and Swords abound, as well as a lot more copies of Toxic Deluge, Grixis Delver will have a much harder time rebuilding through the removal posed by the "new" format. Tarmogoyf, IMO, seems to become the better beater, as you can play the single threat and protect it with reactive spells, instead of needing to be proactive with discard and the like to get more power onto the board. Angler's still very good, but you can't really play it as a 4-of, and Swords or other removal becomes all the more devastating.

-----
How Miracles as a deck operates without Dig Through Time

In a format without Dig Through Time, Miracles stands out as the premier late game control deck of the format. In the way that BUG and Jund like to grind their opponents down with Removal and Discard, we use our removal and our own form of "discard" in Counterbalance, though it does also provide us with a tempo advantage.

Since we are no longer getting payoff through our graveyard in being able to cast an early and devestating dig through time, we are less inclined to run free counterspells like Daze. Without Daze, we no longer really want to be tapping out on turn 3 to try to slam a mentor.

Looking at the decks that should (should being the key word) come in and out of the format, it's quite clear to me that we want to take a step back, and reform to a reactive approach. I'm not sure how far this goes yet. Mentor is still an amazing card, and I believe that it belongs in the board for the time being, but I'm not clear as to what the number should look like.

A reactive approach means Entreat the Angels, which is a reactive win condition (by reactive, I mean I can do it when I want at instant speed.).

With Ovino, Prauge, and GP Seattle coming up, it's going to be an interesting couple of months. This is ofc all speculation.

---

I think Death and Taxes will also come back because Omnitell was one of its worse if not the worse matchup and now it will get replaced by Sneak&Show decks which Death and Taxes has great mu against. I agree with the rest of what you said though.

we can agree on that then: much less red :cool: