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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
morgan_coke
I'd love to see Brainstorm banned. Ponder and Preordain and Probe would still provide a ton of search cantrip power, it would just all be at sorcery speed and you'd lose the ability to dodge discard and skip bad draws.
Mind that this comes at time time other people want Probe banned because it makes Therapy good.
Can you guys please decide between:
a) Probe/Therapy being too good in the format so Probe needs a ban
b) Brainstorm turning Probe/Therapy (and discard in general) unplayable
Those are two extremely contradicting positions, I keep reading here back to back and actually wonder how the complaints about Probe would go away if you remove the most common card used (Brainstorm) to mitigate the damage done by Probe+Therapy
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
People are complaining about the power of Probe with Therapy among other things. It's not the only argument, you're cherry picking.
I think you're also just mashing thoughts from different people and taking it as a forum consensus too. Can you find the last post of someone saying Brainstorm completely invalidates discard (it doesn't of course, it's just strong vs it)? Last time I remember seeing that it was when people were also complaining about SDT, which was even better vs discard.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
I recognize you guys are different posters, but aren't these ideas at least a little contradictory:
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Barook
The problem with cantrips is that they aren't really interactive. Unless you're also playing blue, they promote less interaction.
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Originally Posted by
Cave
I'm still fine with this, I like my delver matchup and everything, it's just that sometimes they get to play the delver game where they basically swing Delver 7 times and you play nothing because they always cantrip into that perfect daze, that perfect wasteland and that perfect removal. My point is, playing against this is not funnier than Tomb->CotV@1->go.
Sure, it's difficult to interact specifically with the cantrips themselves (though I'd argue many of the cards Barook cited interact with them aggressively, like chalice and thalia), but having cantrips allows people to interact more - they're able to find their removal, their wastelands, etc. Without that selection, it'd be much more: "oh, I could really use a push right now" *draw step is a land* "well, I guess I'm dead."
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Barook
Blue still hogging all the stack interaction is a major design flaw of Magic and I doubt it's going to get better anytime soon.
I'm not really sure how to handle this one; maybe give a bit more to red and white? The color distinctions don't bother me as much, but I know some people have a particular distaste for blue that is probably analogous to my dislike of creature combat, so. It's also one of the things I find weird about the cantrip argument - nobody ever seems mad about Green Sun's Zenith, or Sylvan Library, or Faithless Looting, or Entomb, or Recruiter of the Guard, or any other consistency engines that are non-blue. I get that the blue one is probably still the best, but one has to be, right? Shouldn't it be in the color that (at least used to be) focused on card quality and quantity?
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Now that Food Chain instakills with Walking Ballista, can we finally unban Goblin Recruiter? It was a joke to have still been banned 4 years ago and now it's just a worse version of a card/combo that already exists (in a blue/deathrite shell too) and is half a percent of the metagame.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
taconaut
It's also one of the things I find weird about the cantrip argument - nobody ever seems mad about Green Sun's Zenith, or Sylvan Library, or Faithless Looting, or Entomb, or Recruiter of the Guard, or any other consistency engines that are non-blue. I get that the blue one is probably still the best, but one has to be, right? Shouldn't it be in the color that (at least used to be) focused on card quality and quantity?
Sure, but now blue also has some of the best creatures too, which wasn't previously the case.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Wow, so many quality posts. Also surprising that BS, Probe, and Tomb are getting lots of chatter but DRS isn't.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Megadeus
If you think tomb is broken, you've never drawn two tombs against burn or delver and sat there and wondered why you bothered to show up with your non brainstorm deck after round 3
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Originally Posted by
Cave
T1 threat (DRS/Delver/Goose) then cantrip into flip+disruption is equally as backbreaking as T1 chalice, if not more.
Sticking a T1 chalice against any blue deck is also borderline impossible, as the average stompy/mud list has 25-35% chance to be able to make that play with their opening 7. Delver decks, on the other hand, have a T0 40% chance to have an active Force of Will on the draw, and 70%+ chance to have protection in your T1 (fow/daze/pierce) if they are on the play.
T1 Land, Delver, pass .
T1 Tomb (unfun card :confused:), Chalice (unfair card :confused:), resp force of will.
T2 Delver flips, swings for 3, ponder, wasteland on tomb, pass.
Now what? Restarting the game with no board, 75% of your hp and a 5-turns flying clock sitting on their side looks like a very grim perspective to me, no matter how unfun and unfair are the cards I play.
Can confirm. Even one Tomb vs Delver is risky, but two is almost an auto-loss (unless you're on the play and land something like a turn 3 Wurmcoil). Outside of combo matchups, the 2 life is a real downside to playing Tomb.
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Originally Posted by
maharis
+1 on this as recommended reading.
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Originally Posted by
Barook
The problem with cantrips is that they aren't really interactive.
Yep.
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Originally Posted by
Michael Keller
Legacy is fine at the moment and has been more fun than I can remember in a long time. We've had to trudge through the last six years with Mental Misstep, Treasure Cruise, Dig Through Time and Sensei's Divining Top just pushing the format to levels of stagnancy and boredom to the point where I can imagine it pushed people away. If anything, I would expect an unban rather than a ban the next time a change occurs.
Agreed. Even if I like to say that BS needs a ban, Legacy is in a pretty nice place for anyone whose meta doesn't mirror MTGO (i.e. just Delver, 4C, Storm, etc). I'll be disappointed if there's a ban later this month.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
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Originally Posted by
Dr_D
Sure, but now blue also has some of the best creatures too, which wasn't previously the case.
Yeah, that's true, True-Name/Leovold/Delver are all kinda dumb, I agree. Still seems weird that people object to consistency, but only a very specific hue of it.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
taconaut
I'm not really sure how to handle this one; maybe give a bit more to red and white? The color distinctions don't bother me as much, but I know some people have a particular distaste for blue that is probably analogous to my dislike of creature combat, so. It's also one of the things I find weird about the cantrip argument - nobody ever seems mad about Green Sun's Zenith, or Sylvan Library, or Faithless Looting, or Entomb, or Recruiter of the Guard, or any other consistency engines that are non-blue. I get that the blue one is probably still the best, but one has to be, right? Shouldn't it be in the color that (at least used to be) focused on card quality and quantity?
The problem is that it's best by a few country miles, and slots into everything (or has everything built around it, whichever you prefer). I'm fine the moment not playing the cartel is a genuine consideration in general deckbuilding. Whether it's card selection creep in other colors or Brainstorm getting the axe, I don't really care. I just want a diversity of CQ/CA engines, they decide a lot of a deck's feel.
Also, despite the stellar manabases the format enjoys, they are still blue and take up a color which is not a nonexistent cost. Playing blue is playing blue, and you end up playing blue if you want the cartel because it's easy and good, and you kinda have to play the cartel.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Zombie
I'm fine the moment not playing the cartel is a genuine consideration in general deckbuilding. I just want a diversity of CQ/CA engines, they decide a lot of a deck's feel.
Isn't it already a genuine consideration? Decks like Lands, Elves, and BR Reanimator all have different consistency engines, and are real decks.
If you mean "novel" deckbuilding or brewing, then I think that goes back to the point I made before about the nature of the format - sometimes the thing that is cool is just not up to the power level of existing stuff you can do in the format, and getting rid of cantrips won't change that. Even if you ban Brainstorm, Ponder, Preordain, Gitaxian Probe, and Serum Visions (gotta send a message), is whatever brew deck going to be able to overcome Gamble into Loam, or GSZ into duder toolbox, or Faithless Looting + Entomb, or any of the other existing quality decks? Why is it always the blue ones everyone blames?
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Barook
The problem with cantrips is that they aren't really interactive. Unless you're also playing blue, they promote less interaction. Why? Blue is pretty much the only color that can interact with them via counters...
...Blue still hogging all the stack interaction is a major design flaw of Magic and I doubt it's going to get better anytime soon.
This has nothing to do with Cantrips though, it's true of most any consistency tools.
GZS, Gamble, Crop Rotation, Glimpse, Faithless Looting, Recruiter, etc, are just as hard to interact with. That’s okay because you can generally interact with the cards they find.
I think having more non-cantrip decks would be great, but I can't see that making a more interactive format (nor do I think Legacy has an interaction deficit).
Quote:
Originally Posted by
maharis
Because they all have the same weaknesses in that they lean on the cantrips to cheat on mana and total number of win conditions.
This just isn't true. Taxing effects are a nuisance for Delver, a full stop for Storm, and almost useless vs S&T. Graveyard hate crushes UB Reanimator but does little or nothing vs Delver, Storm, etc.
My Lands deck is a huge favourite vs Delver, a moderate favourite vs Pyro or UW blade, a moderate dog vs Storm, and dead in the water vs S&T or Reanimator. How can I have such skewed match-ups vs the same style deck?
I agree that the format would be a bit better if non-cantrip decks took a bigger share. But this idea that cantrip decks all play the same style is straight-up indefensible.
Edit - I also challenge the claim that cantrip decks cheat on the threat count. Seems to me Aggro Loam is not running more threats than cantrip midrange decks like Nobel BUG or Czech Pile. And I don't think RB Reanimator runs more threats than the UB cantrip version.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
taconaut
...is whatever brew deck going to be able to overcome Gamble into Loam, or GSZ into duder toolbox, or Faithless Looting + Entomb, or any of the other existing quality decks? Why is it always the blue ones everyone blames?
Some of those folks are mad that their favorite deck is no longer viable and blame blue for it. Others just don't enjoying playing the endless sea of blue (cantrips/control/drs/delver) or dislike the color in general. Granted, would they prefer to play Chalice.DEC or Loam or D&T all day? I think not. I love to not ban cards but unban some and see what happens.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
taconaut
Isn't it already a genuine consideration? Decks like Lands, Elves, and BR Reanimator all have different consistency engines, and are real decks.
If you mean "novel" deckbuilding or brewing, then I think that goes back to the point I made before about the nature of the format - sometimes the thing that is cool is just not up to the power level of existing stuff you can do in the format, and getting rid of cantrips won't change that. Even if you ban Brainstorm, Ponder, Preordain, Gitaxian Probe, and Serum Visions (gotta send a message), is whatever brew deck going to be able to overcome Gamble into Loam, or GSZ into duder toolbox, or Faithless Looting + Entomb, or any of the other existing quality decks? Why is it always the blue ones everyone blames?
Because the blue ones require so little build-around. The difference between Ponder, GSZ and Recruiter of the Guard should be obvious. The latter two require that you have creatures of a very certain characteristic in your deck, AND that you pay more than one mana. Ponder works in your one-land hand, in your 5-land hand, as a late topdeck, as your scry to the top after a mulligan, in your combo deck, in your midrange deck, in a tempo deck, with creatures, without creatures... you get the point.
Look at the other deckbuilding restrictions: Entomb requires that you play something out of the GY. Loam requires GY synergies and lots of lands -- these cards are often junk without an active loam. Glimpse requires a critical mass of creatures.
The blue cards slot into EVERYTHING and synergize with key early interaction police cards like Daze and Force plus insane top ends like TNN, Angler, Jace. They glue the goodstuff piles together more than anything else, more than Deathrite, more than duals and fetches.
You have to understand that the helplessness you feel when holding a hand full of one-drop spells against a Chalice is the same sense that a player without cantrips feels when they fan open their 1-land 6-card hand on the draw.
IMO the best argument for retaining the cantrips as legal is to preserve Storm as a deck in Legacy. Because I do agree that things like engine combo or creatureless decks are important to the format's identity.
But something like 90% of Brainstorm decks aren't storm, and those are the ones people complain about (the greedy/goodstuff piles that promote monotonous games). And by the same token, I think that if we are deciding that cantrips are crucial to retain a certain kind of deck in this format, that is just as subjective as if we were to decide that one engine taking up two-thirds of the format is too far.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
maharis
Look at the other deckbuilding restrictions: Entomb requires that you play something out of the GY. Loam requires GY synergies and lots of lands -- these cards are often junk without an active loam. Glimpse requires a critical mass of creatures.
I agree that they cantrips require less deckbuilding considerations, but I think that is also in exchange for power level to some extent. Entomb requires that you play something out of the graveyard, but the something is griselbrand and you win. Loam requires graveyard synergies and lots of lands, but enables itself and doesn't cost mana, works from the grave, etc. Glimpse requires a critical mass of creatures, but lets you use those creatures to potentially draw ten or more cards. The cantrips exchange game-breaking impacts for flexibility (which, I think you could/would argue fairly, is ultimately better, I just don't think it's "banworthy" better).
Quote:
Originally Posted by
maharis
You have to understand that the helplessness you feel when holding a hand full of one-drop spells against a Chalice is the same sense that a player without cantrips feels when they fan open their 1-land 6-card hand on the draw.
Why do we want more of this? The fewer consistency engines available, the more this will happen to people.
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Originally Posted by
maharis
IMO the best argument for retaining the cantrips as legal is to preserve Storm as a deck in Legacy. Because I do agree that things like engine combo or creatureless decks are important to the format's identity.
As an ANT player, I appreciate the acknowledgement.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
maharis
But something like 90% of Brainstorm decks aren't storm, and those are the ones people complain about (the greedy/goodstuff piles that promote monotonous games).
I think people complain about Storm a lot, too, and they're not always wrong - I've had my share of brainstorms that turned an "ok" hand into "you're just dead," so I totally get it. If they banned brainstorm this month, I'd really have a hard time arguing against it from a powerlevel standpoint; the card is obviously broken. That being said, I hope they don't, because I think it adds more to the game than it takes away.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
I'm fine with most cantrips, but brainstorm is far and away the best card in the format and I feel like an idiot every time I play a non brainstorm deck at a large event after I've lost because I drew running lands with no way to change them out for spells. If BS were banned I think there would still be plenty of decks that play 8+ cantrips, and they would probably be very good, but they would receive a blow. I mean we had a GP where the top 32 was 87% brainstorm decks. That's completely absurd. It really just proves that outside of 4 lucky people, if you want to top a large event you're starting the deck building process with 4 brainstorm.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
What I like about Brainstorm and its absurd power level is that it allows for people to brew kooky decks and have them be somewhat reliable, simply because they can play 6-8 fetchlands + Branstorm and reasonably see the cards they need to make their pile work. Lots of people want to get into legacy and try to brew their own decks, this is part of what makes Magic fun by allowing people to choose-their-own-adventure. Someone getting into the format likely plays commander or modern, so fetchlands and shock-duals are likely to be in their collection. Brainstorm is an inexpensive card that powers up even the janky-est of decks. The same can be said of Ponder and Preordain, but those don't allow for as complicated tricks (such as in response to discard, etc.) Yes it powers up the best decks, but it also allows the lowliest of new players to also have their FuckingWhatever.dec reasonably perform, even if its underpowered.
I wouldn't be upset if they banned Brainstorm (well, maybe a little) but I wouldn't be upset if it never gets banned. I play legacy to do/see/play against broken things, and legacy is expensive enough without making the jump to Vintage. Let me brew my tier 347 Thopter Foundry combo deck with Brainstorm please, and when I get the big stuff such as Force of Will, true duals, and Jace TMS, please let me use Brainstorm in that deck too. Ponder will do if I can't have Brainstorm. Thnx.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Apparently there can be civilized conversation about brainstorm without the nerd-rage, congrats to all involved.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quick, somebody unban nedleeds and get the thread back on track.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
I think one thing that's pushed the power of the "cantrip cartel" over the top vs. other, less consistent plans is that the stuff the cartel plays is now just better than what you could get in other colors. Delver by itself pretty much invalidated the entire Zoo deck. 'Goyf killed Goblins. Leovold and TNN and Pyromancer beat pretty much every every other creature plan. DRS craps all over anyone trying to pull incremental or lategame grindy advantage from the graveyard. And all of those go in with the cantrips.
There's just a huge, huge difference between Mongoose/Werebear and Delver/Goyf.
I mean, when was the last time it was even remotely worth it to run Dark Ritual in a deck that wasn't combo? Hippie might not cut it anymore, but things like Liliana do. But the inconsistency isn't worth it anymore because every deck has to at least try to keep up with the cantrips.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
morgan_coke
I think one thing that's pushed the power of the "cantrip cartel" over the top vs. other, less consistent plans is that the stuff the cartel plays is now just better than what you could get in other colors. Delver by itself pretty much invalidated the entire Zoo deck...
There's a lot to be said for this.
Worth noting that Shardless BUG supplanted Jund despite running mostly the same set of threats. Then again, Jund was pretty solid up until the printing of TNN.
I'm not actually convinced that the Cantrip decks are objectively better than the non-cantrip decks. While Grixis Tempo might be the single best deck*, it is not at all clear that other decks like Blade, Czech, etc are actually better than decks lime D&T, Elves, etc. There are more decks than run cantrips (because they slot into more play-styles), but those decks are not necessarily better.
*I'm not even convinced Grixis Delver is the best deck. It puts up the best numbers, but we know it's heavily played. The fact that Lands gets the results with (presumably) a fraction of the players says a lot. We don't have access to this data, but I wouldn't be surprised if Lands has the best conversion rate in the entire format.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
morgan_coke
I mean, when was the last time it was even remotely worth it to run Dark Ritual in a deck that wasn't combo?
Probably the last time it was even remotely worth it to run mono :b: Pox? :tongue:
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Crimhead
Worth noting that Shardless BUG supplanted Jund despite running mostly the same set of threats. Then again, Jund was pretty solid up until the printing of TNN.
Nailed it.
How could a deck that consistently plays 4x Liliana main and has frequently played -X/-X board wipes and engineered plagues because of it's problems with decks like elves ever deal with that card?
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
CptHaddock
Nailed it.
How could a deck that consistently plays 4x Liliana main and has frequently played -X/-X board wipes and engineered plagues because of it's problems with decks like elves ever deal with that card?
The problem wasn't that Jund couldn't deal with TNN, it's that a better draw/search engine now had the same and better creatures, which pushed the format and other decks in directions that were hostile to Jund.
You can talk about conversion rates and stuff, but at the big GP's, top 32 is well over 80% cantrips on a regular basis. It's just a more consistent plan, and consistency wins out over time.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
morgan_coke
The problem wasn't that Jund couldn't deal with TNN, it's that a better draw/search engine now had the same and better creatures, which pushed the format and other decks in directions that were hostile to Jund.
You can talk about conversion rates and stuff, but at the big GP's, top 32 is well over 80% cantrips on a regular basis. It's just a more consistent plan, and consistency wins out over time.
This. It's either play cantrips and you can be one of the 28 decks that play them in top 32, or don't play cantrips and hope you are the token that people will scream and point to and say "SEE YOU CAN TOTALLY TOP 8 WITHOUT CANTRIPS LOOK AT THIS ONE DECK"
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
morgan_coke
I think one thing that's pushed the power of the "cantrip cartel" over the top vs. other, less consistent plans is that the stuff the cartel plays is now just better than what you could get in other colors. Delver by itself pretty much invalidated the entire Zoo deck. 'Goyf killed Goblins. Leovold and TNN and Pyromancer beat pretty much every every other creature plan. DRS craps all over anyone trying to pull incremental or lategame grindy advantage from the graveyard. And all of those go in with the cantrips.
There's just a huge, huge difference between Mongoose/Werebear and Delver/Goyf.
I mean, when was the last time it was even remotely worth it to run Dark Ritual in a deck that wasn't combo? Hippie might not cut it anymore, but things like Liliana do. But the inconsistency isn't worth it anymore because every deck has to at least try to keep up with the cantrips.
This is the crux of the issue. The blue creature creep has been insane. Honestly at this point I would much rather just lose a bunch of those cards and at least make deckbuilding interesting. Cards like Strix and SCM and TNN just do everything. I'm not bothered by Delver because at least it forces some sort of restriction on deckbuilding, but watching a Jund player get waxed by Shardless because the blue player got to cascade a turn earlier into a brick wall for Goyf that drew another card was miserable.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
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Originally Posted by
Griselpuff
Why on earth would you want Reddit's opinion on anything Legacy related, have you seen the threads they make on there?
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
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Originally Posted by
maharis
This is the crux of the issue. The blue creature creep has been insane. Honestly at this point I would much rather just lose a bunch of those cards and at least make deckbuilding interesting. Cards like Strix and SCM and TNN just do everything. I'm not bothered by Delver because at least it forces some sort of restriction on deckbuilding, but watching a Jund player get waxed by Shardless because the blue player got to cascade a turn earlier into a brick wall for Goyf that drew another card was miserable.
I just hate that my opponents get to go Underground Sea into mana dork. It feels pretty stupid :'(
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Megadeus
I just hate that my opponents get to go Underground Sea into mana dork. It feels pretty stupid :'(
I understand this sentiment but I don't think banning a non-blue card is going to solve the problem of too many blue decks. It's the SDT/Counterbalance problem all over again.
There's already a no-Deathrite Grixis deck putting up better results than any variation of Jund, Rock, Deadguy, Nic Fit, Maverick, Zoo, etc. It even has freakin Blood Moon in the sideboard.
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/archetyp...is-36749#paper
I think DRS would feel less oppressive if it didn't always just lead into the same busted blue creatures and occasionally you saw one power out a Mirran Crusader or something.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dr_D
Why on earth would you want Reddit's opinion on anything Legacy related, have you seen the threads they make on there?
I wouldn't exactly say we are all that much better here. I have seen people here legitimately ask about unbanning Balance. Other times people told me unbanned Vise would destroy the format. I remember reading here about how Dragon was going to destroy the format as game after game went to time.
Opinions are just that, opinions. The only one that matters happens every 3 months and has nothing to do with us.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dice_Box
I wouldn't exactly say we are all that much better here. I have seen people here legitimately ask about unbanning Balance. Other times people told me unbanned Vise would destroy the format. I remember reading here about how Dragon was going to destroy the format as game after game went to time.
Opinions are just that, opinions. The only one that matters happens every 3 months and has nothing to do with us.
At least source users presumably know how to use a search bar.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Unabashed Brainstorm fanboy here. Totally seconding the creature-creep argument. I remember someone's arguing that the Delver archetype always had a stronger hold on the format than Miracles did, and though I think Miracles was a much bigger problem, I agree that Delver really is homogenizing the metagame in concert with the cantrips. Though I don't agree that the cantrip engine alone homogenizes the metagame or that all Delver decks are the same, I think it's hard to argue that Delver-Cantrips decks are not extremely similar in construction and playstyle, and they're easily the biggest archetype in the format.
The major problem is that there isn't any comparable choice among aggro creatures: Delver synergizes with cantrips and countermagic, and it's the strongest attacker in the format.
The creep in creature power is by no means limited to Delver (Deathrite is probably the best creature in the game and Monastery Mentor effectively restructured Vintage), but I think Delver is the trend's most oppressive exemplar. It's the culmination of years of throttle-forward creature design, which would have been fine were it not for the fact that noncreatures were simultaneously pulled back and Delver just happened to be printed in the utility-and-permission color. If you want homogenization, it's "big dudes on the cheap," and according to MTGTop8, Legacy is the only place where aggro hasn't taken over the format—despite the existence of Delver, Deathrite, Tarmogoyf, Mentor, etc. Obviously, the increased power and utility of older noncreature spells and the absence of Vintage mana has allowed Legacy to strike a balance, but I find myself wondering how much longer that can continue.
I also find it interesting that Standard and Modern are so much more samey in spite of the greater variety of viable decks (in Modern, at least) and the much lesser degree of format penetration among most-played cards. I have no problem with linear creature-based strategies, but I don't need to throw down for duals to play that kind of Magic, and I don't want crazy combos and lockdowns to wither away. Not advocating for any bans, but I sincerely hope that the trend of upping creature power doesn't knock over everything but Value.dec strats in this format, too.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ronald Deuce
I have no problem with linear creature-based strategies, but I don't need to throw down for duals to play that kind of Magic, and I don't want crazy combos and lockdowns to wither away. Not advocating for any bans, but I sincerely hope that the trend of upping creature power doesn't knock over everything but Value.dec strats in this format, too.
That's how I felt reading the comments lamenting the decline of Jund above - if people want to play five rounds of heads-up "ETB guy versus their removal" games, there is literally an entire format where you are basically not allowed to do anything else, and new siege rhinos appear every three months or so. I feel like Jund is more or less the least interesting thing to do with Legacy's card pool, so why not get that fix from Standard or even limited? That's not even a dig, recent draft sets have been pretty fun, and have meaningful decisions! I play them from time to time! But Legacy is where I want to do cool things.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
CptHaddock
Nailed it.
How could a deck that consistently plays 4x Liliana main and has frequently played -X/-X board wipes and engineered plagues because of it's problems with decks like elves ever deal with that card?
I'm saying TNN helped to make Shardless unquestionably superior to Jund. The cantrip engine hasn't gotten any better since when Maverick or Jund were king. Blue creatures have.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
morgan_coke
You can talk about conversion rates and stuff, but at the big GP's, top 32 is well over 80% cantrips on a regular basis. It's just a more consistent plan, and consistency wins out over time.
- That 80% is spread out over more decks than the 20% of non-cantrip decks. In other words, you are completely missing my point. But sure, if we consider that 80% of the meta to be a single deck, it's clearly over-powered. If we look at individual decks, maybe not so much.
- The point of conversion rates is to compare top 8 percentage to overall field percentage. Of course that doesn't apply to the 80% because we are looking at aggregate data from a huge range of different decks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Megadeus
"SEE YOU CAN TOTALLY TOP 8 WITHOUT CANTRIPS LOOK AT THIS ONE DECK"
Nice touch with the caps.
I get you're exaggerating, and that's cool. We can agree there are far fewer (competitive) decks without cantrips than with. But this provides zero evidence that these decks are abjectly worse than anything from the plethora of playable cantrip decks.
If you want to claim cantrips are bad because the make for less diversity in terms of viable engines, that’s a fair compliant. If you want to further complain that those decks that happen to be well suited to not running cantrips are at a disadvantage, that simply doesn't follow.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
taconaut
That's how I felt reading the comments lamenting the decline of Jund above - if people want to play five rounds of heads-up "ETB guy versus their removal" games, there is literally an entire format where you are basically not allowed to do anything else, and new siege rhinos appear every three months or so. I feel like Jund is more or less the least interesting thing to do with Legacy's card pool, so why not get that fix from Standard or even limited? That's not even a dig, recent draft sets have been pretty fun, and have meaningful decisions! I play them from time to time! But Legacy is where I want to do cool things.
Because there are plenty of cool things to do that don't involve spamming a bunch of rituals. Off the top of my head here are some cards that I like playing that are only available in Legacy:
Wasteland
Crop Rotation
Sylvan Library
Green Sun's Zenith
Punishing Fire
Mother of Runes
Dark Depths
Cabal Therapy
Mox Diamond
No one is coming for your storm deck. This discussion is about fair decks in Legacy, which lots of people enjoy playing and some people dislike the continual narrowing of that archetype.
Finally: There are twice as many shared cards between Grixis Delver and ANT as there are between Grixis Delver and Jund. The difference is entirely within the cantrips. That's why cards like Chalice and Thalia exist at such a high level in the format. You want to play less of those games, you need to open up the format to more decks that don't take a giant leap off a cliff to Chalice.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
I love legacy. I love playing with cantrips, with chalice, with gsz decks, and kill via tendrills or whatever deck you can give me. There's some cards however that I think are a problem in the format. While I love my set of foil brainstorm the card should have been banned at the beginning of the format existence. Now the format is warped around it and to be fair I love it the way it is. The cards that are a real pain in the ass are imo TNN, griselbrand and gitaxian probe.
I lost countless games against really bad players simply by being killed with a topdeck-and-slam TNN and i won countless games I should have lost by slamming a TNN and blocking the best threat or killing the PW that resolved in the window within my counters. If TNN was white or another Color it would have probably been ok but not in blue. TNN is miserable for fair decks and it shouldn't exist. Griselbrand is the best creature u can cheat into play. You can SnT an emrakul into play with a couple counter in hand and your jund/midrange opponent can TS away your counter in his turn and than slam a lotv/edict and keep the game going; but if u show n tell a griselbrand you basically restart the game with 2-3 lands, a 14 cards hand and your "try to jund me out" smile on the face.
Gitaxian probe is not "broken" in the classic sense but it takes away the guessing game for such a low cost and watching your hand being raped by therapy with no skill is miserable (I'd love me some perfect hit tourach for B and 2 Life).
The first two cards are the most responsible for some decks disappearance as they are too hard to interact with or simply too good. Probe is just unfun and too cheap for what it brings to the table.
All in all I'm loving the format right now. Here in Italy (and Europe in general) we have a very high level legacy scene and some amazing deckbuilders. I have seen list that never arrive to the big public of decks that are considered tier 2-3 (nic-fit, blue moon, wbx and others) that are so well build and piloted that I wouldn't mind testing and bringing to a tournament in place of a proven t1 archetype.
Mtgo meta is so shitty and inbred i wouldn't touch it with a stick tho.
Sent from my MI 5 using Tapatalk
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ronald Deuce
If you want homogenization, it's "big dudes on the cheap," and according to MTGTop8, Legacy is the only place where aggro hasn't taken over the format—despite the existence of Delver, Deathrite, Tarmogoyf, Mentor, etc.
"Despite the existence of Delver, Deathrite, Tarmogoyf, Mentor, etc"? Of those, Tarmogoyf is the only one that actually works in aggro and even Tarmogoyf is more commonly played in midrange or tempo. If anything, those cards are a key reason aggro isn't a thing in Legacy; the best creatures in the format don't work well in an aggro deck.
Also, MTG Top 8's archetype classification of aggro is basically useless because they seem to consider aggro, control, and combo to be the only archetypes. So you end up with very un-aggro decks thrown into the aggro archetype because their actual archetypes aren't available as a category. About half of the decks it lists as "aggro" for Modern don't belong in that category at all.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
maharis
Because there are plenty of cool things to do that don't involve spamming a bunch of rituals. Off the top of my head here are some cards that I like playing that are only available in Legacy:
Wasteland
Crop Rotation
Sylvan Library
Green Sun's Zenith
Punishing Fire
Mother of Runes
Dark Depths
Cabal Therapy
Mox Diamond
No one is coming for your storm deck. This discussion is about fair decks in Legacy, which lots of people enjoy playing and some people dislike the continual narrowing of that archetype.
Finally: There are twice as many shared cards between Grixis Delver and ANT as there are between Grixis Delver and Jund. The difference is entirely within the cantrips. That's why cards like Chalice and Thalia exist at such a high level in the format. You want to play less of those games, you need to open up the format to more decks that don't take a giant leap off a cliff to Chalice.
Aren't all of those cards currently competitive? I agree that they're all sweet. I've had all of them played against me at the last two locals I played, at least, and certainly lost to them more than once.
What do you mean by "narrowing of the archetype?" That the number of viable fair decks is getting smaller, or those decks are becoming more similar?
How would you open up the format? Do you feel that banning a cantrip would even it up significantly? There's still pressure to have things like Force, because of unfair decks that don't use cantrips, and people will still need consistency engines.
Plus, I feel like Wizards is 100% on the fair side of this - it's only a matter of time before legacy becomes "who will be the king of valuetown" as they print more and more under-costed beaters with ETB effects and weenies with binary hate abilities.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
I'd love to try this abject mass murder, even if it was just a temporary alternate timeline:
Brainstorm, Griselbrand, Emrakul, Jin-Gitaxias (anyone remember that he exists at all?), True-Name Nemesis, Council's Judgment, Terminus, Entreat, Monastery Mentor, Leyline of Sanctity, Rest in Peace, Leovold.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Zombie
I'd love to try this abject mass murder, even if it was just a temporary alternate timeline:
Brainstorm, Griselbrand, Emrakul, Jin-Gitaxias (anyone remember that he exists at all?), True-Name Nemesis, Council's Judgment, Terminus, Entreat, Monastery Mentor, Leyline of Sanctity, Rest in Peace, Leovold.
Zombie, could you please show me on this doll where Miracles touched you?
:laugh:
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
maharis
Because there are plenty of cool things to do that don't involve spamming a bunch of rituals. Off the top of my head here are some cards that I like playing that are only available in Legacy:
Wasteland
Crop Rotation
Sylvan Library
Green Sun's Zenith
Punishing Fire
Mother of Runes
Dark Depths
Cabal Therapy
Mox Diamond
No one is coming for your storm deck. This discussion is about fair decks in Legacy, which lots of people enjoy playing and some people dislike the continual narrowing of that archetype.
Finally: There are twice as many shared cards between Grixis Delver and ANT as there are between Grixis Delver and Jund. The difference is entirely within the cantrips. That's why cards like Chalice and Thalia exist at such a high level in the format. You want to play less of those games, you need to open up the format to more decks that don't take a giant leap off a cliff to Chalice.
I really like this post, but I highlighted the part I think is the golden nugget.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
taconaut
What do you mean by "narrowing of the archetype?" That the number of viable fair decks is getting smaller, or those decks are becoming more similar?
I think that generally the complaint is that the fair decks are too similar (but I can't speak for anybody specifically. Right now the most competitive fair decks are:
Agressive/Tempo:
- Prowess
- Infect
- Grixis Tempo
Grindy/Midrange:- Czech
- Noble Bug
- Stoneblade
- D&T
For combo we have:
For Stompy decks we have:
And for "hard" control (decks that are light on potential threats) we have:
This is a rough list (we will never agree on a list of all the competitive decks), but it looks to me like "fair" decks are at least as diverse as any other play-style. So I don’t have much sympathy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
taconaut
Plus, I feel like Wizards is 100% on the fair side of this - it's only a matter of time before legacy becomes "who will be the king of valuetown" as they print more and more under-costed beaters with ETB effects and weenies with binary hate abilities.
I used to worry about this a lot. I still do, but less often. These days I worry more about a shift towards aggressive bans and "fun policing" and less about printings. But I have no desire to play "battle-cruiser" Legacy. If/when they start banning cards like Dark Ritual, LED, Tabernacle, etc, I'll probably abandon MTG altogether.
