Miracle Control

Well, its not bad and absolutely necessary if you need do dig for lands but when dtt was legal the feeling was just great. Ponder was much better in the deck. Actually so far in my testing i was doing way better with dig than now, dont know if its issues with the list or if i have to tune my playing. In any case i think people underrate how good miracles actually was with 3 digs and 2 blasts main + 3 snapcasters.

By the way, with sneak we still lose if they draw boseiju, dont know if i should go with 2 priests in the side. I just hate the feeling man.

Oh, how many lands do you 4ponder folks play? 20 or 21?

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Originally Posted by Ocean

Well, its not bad and absolutely necessary if you need do dig for lands but when dtt was legal the feeling was just great. Ponder was much better in the deck. Actually so far in my testing i was doing way better with dig than now, dont know if its issues with the list or if i have to tune my playing. In any case i think people underrate how good miracles actually was with 3 digs and 2 blasts main + 3 snapcasters.

By the way, with sneak we still lose if they draw boseiju, dont know if i should go with 2 priests in the side. I just hate the feeling man.

Oh, how many lands do you 4ponder folks play? 20 or 21?

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i play 21, wastelands are returning in the metagame now imho

Sneak and Show doesn't tend to play Boseiju. The mana is already pretty terrible, so unless they get greedy and port it from Omni builds I don't think it's anything to worry about.

As Gros says, even with 4 Ponder, 21 lands seems correct given the expected 'return' of things like Canadian Thresh etc. Another reason for Sneak and Show not to play Boseiju, btw.

Ponder is still a great card in the deck, I wouldn't consider cutting it. Whilst a reactive deck, Miracles' gameplan is actually quite linear. Survive the early turns, get a countertop lock on board and win with anything. Of course this isn't always what happens, but it's a goal to aim for, and Ponder helps that. On topic, I can't say I can agree with the argument of tension vs Pierce vs Ponder. Just don't play the Ponder? It's fine saving them for later turns. Especially on the play G1, you have no idea what you're looking for.

Do u think there is a possibility to include the new baby Jace in Miracles right now?

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Originally Posted by Serch

Do u think there is a possibility to include the new baby Jace in Miracles right now?

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some friends of mine tested that with mixed results but i think is better in stoneblade, we don't have cards to cut for him and i don't see the real reasons why we want it

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Originally Posted by Serch

Do u think there is a possibility to include the new baby Jace in Miracles right now?

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Not when your real goal is to resolve JtMS

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Originally Posted by Gros

If i don't have top in starting hand i guess that vs. An unkown deck i will always start with t1 ponder... why would this be a "meh play"?

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Obviously. However, in G1s on the play, if Spell Pierce was anywhere in my opener, I would always pass turn holding up :u: even if I could t1 Top. That is, unless I had a FoW that I could pitch the Pierce to.

It's all situational but more often than not I hold up Pierce.

T1 on the play, I am jamming Top 100% of the time against a blind opponent.

edit: I would have to have a very high prior of my opponent playing a deck like Belcher/Oops/etc. for me to hold up Pierce v. playing Top or Ponder.

Imho the most rilevant questions about Miracle in this moment are:

- Pyroblast maindeck yes or not
- Karakas maindeck yes or not
- Rest in Peace or Surgical Extraction in sideboard

My personal thoughts:

- the black will come back, with Liliana - Vendilion Clique is a good response for Liliana (and Pithing Needle too)
- Many Omnitell players leave the deck for Sneak and Show - Containment Priestand Pithing Needle are good response
- Shardless BUG is a very consistent deck in this "new" meta and is a bad matchup for Miracle: Entreat, Mentor and Vendilion help us (and Snap, obv)
- Chalice of the Void (broken card imho) grow in number of deck

baby Jace was fine because of its low cost and possibility to recycle DTT for free.

DTT is now banned what do you want to recycle for free at Sorcery speed? Entreat/Terminus?

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Originally Posted by Hrothgar

Imho the most rilevant questions about Miracle in this moment are:

- Pyroblast maindeck yes or not
- Karakas maindeck yes or not
- Rest in Peace or Surgical Extraction in sideboard

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Before TC/DTT ban:
- Always 1 Karakas
- Always 1 RiP or more

After TC/DTT ban:
- Always 1 Karakas
- Always 1 RiP or more

I know Schonegger dimisses Karakas; however, even when I run Ponders in the DTT/TC time period, there's very little down side by MD one Karakas with all the plus sides.

I know you can catch most creature stuff using Containment Priest/Cage, I actually ran one Priest back in the TC days, but I have never remove RiP from 75. RiP is similar to Blood Moon in that it's such high impact SB card; RiP's never dead, even if u might not want to cast it when u have it in ur hand, it'll become useful just by holding it.

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Originally Posted by twndomn

Before TC/DTT ban:
- Always 1 Karakas
- Always 1 RiP or more

After TC/DTT ban:
- Always 1 Karakas
- Always 1 RiP or more

it.

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1) I think the problem of Karakas is that 1 Karakas and 2 plains are too many non blue lands (for example is bad if we want to play counterbalance fast). Do you think is possible to play 1 plains and 1 karakas? I think quite risky for wastelands.
2) Why not relic of progenitus? I like that card cause no card disadvantage!

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Originally Posted by urgg

1) I think the problem of Karakas is that 1 Karakas and 2 plains are too many non blue lands (for example is bad if we want to play counterbalance fast). Do you think is possible to play 1 plains and 1 karakas? I think quite risky for wastelands.
2) Why not relic of progenitus? I like that card cause no card disadvantage!

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The rule of thumb here is to have in the deck enough basic lands to cast all of your spells, so if we have Entreat the Angals or CJ we need that second plains, imho, in other case we don't.

Regarding tha mana base with colour requirements is usuaaly base myselk on this frank Karsten article on Channelfireball for other formats, so i think this can work well for Legacy Miracles toohttp://www.channelfireball.com/artic...t-your-spells/

From what we see on the table we see we need 18 blue sources to get UU in turn 2, so i would play something like: 9 fetches +4 Island +5 Dual lands, that makes 18 sources
adding 8 cantrips we easily get to 20, but the real question is: do we really want to cast ponder t1 to find a blue source for casting CB t2? well, it depends...

IMHO that could be a little risky but worth it if you play in a meta where karakas shines and you still want to play 4 ponder decklists, or play some sorta of legend rule where you don't need double plains.

Regarding relic of progenitus, that card was played in the early days of miracles, but we now get to play with RIP which is usually better, the difference is that you want to cast Relic also in the beginning of the game, but is usually not enough of a hoser to beat dredge singlehandedly, is better vs. "light graveyard strategies" i guess.

Rip instead want to be cast when it "exiles something important" so if it gets decayed you usually gain more than 1 card of advantage out of it, it is better vs. " Hard graveyard strategies". Earlier when people played DTT someone tested Relic to try to leave cards in his own grave for Dtt, but for me that never worked out really well, Rip simply get the Job done and don't hurt us too much now that we have no more DTTs

Surprised no one has posted a link to the Ovino results. Here they are: http://www.metagame.it/liste-mazzi-l...ain-event.html

Two Miracle lists in the Top 8, both taking 1st and second. First is the new Cadei list and second is old Cadei list from a year ago with some tweaks.

Took first today at local event with the list I posted a few pages back. Replaced my md dig with a councils judgement. Will post my deck list and mini report tomorrow. Mentor is still amazing main deck and will not got back to classic miracles. I've had the most success with this build. Still feels very strong.

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Originally Posted by Dragonslayer_90

Surprised no one has posted a link to the Ovino results. Here they are: http://www.metagame.it/liste-mazzi-l...ain-event.html

Two Miracle lists in the Top 8, both taking 1st and second. First is the new Cadei list and second is old Cadei list from a year ago with some tweaks.

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Cadei's pretty famous. It appears that his winner list has centered around Mentor and just gave up the combo MU game 1. This is one approach I guess, but recently there're a lot, A LOT of SDT hate coming from Shardless and Grixis. This is further confirmed at SCG Indi. For example, 2 Null rods here http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=92447
When you cannot go wild with Mentor + SDTs in the SB games, or just cannot abuse SDT period, it can become tough.

Here's another interesting list from SCG Indi, http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=92466 This is interesting in that my version runs the exact 58. I would -1 MD Venser +1 MD Ponder.

That was my list from Scg indy. I did not miss mentor as there was a lot of hate for top. Baneslayer pulled a ton of overtime with the two blood moons.

That's why it is important to have several different WC able to win from different angles.

Vendilion + Karakas (which is still my favourite)
Mentor + Top is reliable and provide chump blockers
Angels leaves an empty board for too long to be the best but hey, it alt wins..

Opponents will surely go for your Top and Balance. we have to play Angels and cantrips to have Wcons anyway..

Without Jace maybe Supreme Verdict 1x MD can find its place around..

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Originally Posted by raistlinim

That was my list from Scg indy. I did not miss mentor as there was a lot of hate for top. Baneslayer pulled a ton of overtime with the two blood moons.

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what matchups were the blood moons most useful for? and for Baneslayer Angel?

Blood moon came in against lands, shardless, and infect. Baneslayer came in against shardless, death and taxes (with the moat), and rug delver.