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Grixis Delver is an interesting one. many grixis players have considered DnT as one of their worst MUs but lately DnT seems to struggle.
i personally have more trouble post-board than pre-board and i think it really depends on how much DnT hate the Grixis Delver player is packing in the sideboard. i really dont know how to rate this MU. I've always considered it to be pretty even or slightly in our favor rather than that much in favor of the Grixis player...
Yeah, I think I'm just short of 70% overall match win percentage on MTGO. When the next League season (or whatever they call it) starts up in like a week, I'm going to start getting at least some minimal statistics on specific matches.Quote:
Originally Posted by grayryker
The post board games have always been harder vs Delver, it has just been exacerbated a bit with Miracles gone. Without having to fight that monster, opposing decks have more room for annoying things like K. Command and Marsh Casualties.Quote:
Originally Posted by WashableWater1
I've been alternating bringing in Gideon and Council's Judgment against ANT for game 3 scenarios where I saw one or more Dread of Night in game 2. I'm not sure that I necessarily like either or which is better if one of them is necessary. It may be play/draw dependent as well. Council's Judgment occasionally can snipe a piece of artifact mana that was played out early and is one mana more efficient at answering Dread of Night. Gideon provides a bit of "haste" damage in the form of his emblem, assuming you have some creatures on board; that surprise factor is not irrelevant. Gideon also threatens 7 damage the following turn, which closes the Ad Nauseum window very quickly.Quote:
Originally Posted by grayryker
Admist talk of Armageddon and Cataclysm, have we considered Land Tax at all? It could be helpful against decks like Lands, or decks we bring cataclysm in against. I don't know if it's worth a damn or not, but it feels worth trying.
And when I suggest Land Tax, I mean 1-2 sideboard.
Land Tax has rarely been good enough for Legacy. Even when you try to abuse it with Brainstorm and Scroll Rack, it still usually ends up on the wrong side of playability. It doesn't do enough on its own, and even with other enablers, you are still working too hard for something that doesn't win you the game.Quote:
Originally Posted by zakzes
I've never liked it as a "combo" with scroll rack. But, and I haven't play tested it at all, I figure if we can make our draws more live by removing basics from our library, which simultaneously garuntees us to hit our resources/allowing us to gain an even better advantage from cataclysm it could be worth it. I agree it has not previously been legacy-playable and I doubt there's much to support it being good now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Medea_
If I felt like I needed to beat Lands (I don't, I think it's one of our better match-ups and with W/R it's probably 75-25), I would play up to 4 Sanctum Prelates long before I would even think about playing Land Tax. Why play a card that could sometimes be good against a deck when you can play cards that are consistently great against the deck?
Makes sense, just throwing it out. I'm still on mono-w and Lands can feel tedious at times.
in the 75 I play:
2 prelate
1 jailer
2 faerie macabre
2 rip
1 needle
Since I play these and 2 recruiters, lands is no more that hard to beat. (I mean post side)
I play almost the same, no jailer, and 2 surgicals instead of macabre. I just often find myself under a tabernacle+ghost quarter lock.Quote:
Originally Posted by pedro
Well, in my opinion, palace jailer vs lands is one of the most powerful cards. I usually play it "random" to start drawing 2 cards each turn.
I prefer faerie over surgicals because they are recuitable, exile 2 cards (works well vs reanimator decks for example) and it's an ability, not a spell.
Against problematic lands (tabernacle and barbarian ring) the only way is destroy them with wasteland and exile them with rip or faerie macabre.
Against prelate on 2 they can't do much, you block loam and punishing fire.
With these cards I don't feel safe but I think they are enough, I'm quite comfortable.
My aim is understand how to deal vs stoneblade. I have a friend that used to play miracles; He is a nice player and I NEVER won versus his new stoneblade deck.
Online is similar....to me, It seems much difficult to win vs stoneblade than miracles (new or older with top).
True name nemesis is a big problem when placed in a control deck (In BUG decks seems less relevant to me).
In general, I'm still evaluating Serra Avenger, sometimes it is not so good.
Would you mind sharing your current Wr D&T list? Is it still basically what you top 16'd with at SCG Worcester with a few sideboard changes?Quote:
Originally Posted by iatee
I have been playing Stifle Grixis Delver (http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=16548&d=302361&f=LE). The only change is I subsitute the diabolic edict in the sideboard for a Fatal Push (sometimes I take the forked bolt in the main and add a 2nd push).Quote:
Originally Posted by FeX
I feel that the D&T players have a strong edge in case of the classic W builds to decisive for splash builds (If you have no Bolt/Forked bolt and they resolve Magus it is GG, Cunning Sparkmage/Orzhov Pontiff are very crippling). The most problematic issue is that the mana denial suite in DT is a lot stronger combined with the extremely fragile mana base of Grixis Delver. Wasteland hurts Grixis a ton but it is almost negligible for Mono white builds, combined with Rishadan Port and Thalia, means that as the game goes on you will not be able to cast spells, while DT just plows on with Vial and basic plains. StP stops Angler cold in its track even if it gets to come down early. Sanctum Prelate on 1 pretty much kills you except if you are packing K Command/Diabolic Edict/Marsh Casualties/Deluge (rare).
Stifle/Daze can buy delver a little time, but eventually they are going to be mana constricted and run out of removal, and when that happens DT just steamrolls them since all its cards are very good versus Delver. My conclusion is that Delver needs a very good hand to beat DT, while DT only needs an average hand. They are going to need an early threat, removal and some counterspells and a lot of lands to prevent the mana constriction and that is lot to ask. DT only needs a good curve with some redundancy (mom+vial, SFM+thalia, or other easily pairable threats) and it can put Delver in a bind really fast. Getting charges on Jitte is almost always GG and batterskull on the field is almost impossible to deal pre-board. The only card that is hard for D+T to deal with is TNN, but you can easily swarm him by the time he gets it down, and SoFaI just makes him irrelevant.
Post board Grixis Delver will bring in some more cheap removal (Push, Edict, Forked Bolt), double Ancient Grudge, usually just a single DoN, dismember and Pithing Needle. He will usually board out Forces, Stifle/and or probe, many people board out Daze on the draw, I personally maybe shave 1 if needed. DT can board in Path to Exile which is devastating as Grixis Delver packs no basics. Rest in Peace is a bomb postboard as it denies DRS and Angler + potential snapcaster and Council's Judgement is good to take care of TNN and Dread of Night. D+T can also bring in Disenchant or maybe Leonin Relic-Warder to preempt DoN. So overall, I feel that the cards DT can bring are definitely more impactful than those Delver can bring in. In the case of the splash builds, post board is it even harder for Grixis Delver as the D+T player will also have more Pontiffs/Magus, Sparkmage all who are really strong. The fetches and nonbasics are going to make the mana denial game more even, but as Eetai states, this can almost always be negated by aggresively fetching Plains in the early game.
Just my .05 as a D+T and Grixis Delver player in paper.
With the ideal Aether Vial + Thalia + Wasteland/Port Hand, yes Grixis Delver will typically lose. But most hands are not like this and the game will come down to Stoneforge getting equipments and providing stronger inevitability. You can't wasteland/port a Grixis player when you have a mana hungry hand. The newest builds in DnT have more shiny toys to play with but at the expense of a higher curve; before, the deck could safely beat stick with Avengers and Crusaders to finish the game much more quickly. I think game 1, DnT is definitely favored overall.Quote:
Originally Posted by IRS
Now game 2 and 3, I think is a different story. Delver can actually find its sideboard cards in time with cantrips. Rest in Peace is powerful but does very little when you're drawing it past turn 5. Bringing in reactive cards like Disenchant for a card that the opponent might already have gotten value from feels quite awkward. Kolaghan's Command and Ancient Grudge are not always in grixis sideboard but when they appear, it is a huge boost in percentage points for the grixis player.
I've been looking at some Grixis Delver vs DnT matches on YouTube to analyze why the percentages against Grixis Delver is so low (some data, on both paper and mtgo, range from 18% to 30%, which honestly I did not expect). Game 1 definitely feels like DnT has an edge but really I think it's the post games that is shifting the percentage points.
What are people running right now? I haven't been playing legacy as much, but when I do I am running very close to the list Medea_ posted here
http://www.thrabenuniversity.com/?p=1179
Personally trying Grixis Control too, but I just miss DnT. It's my style of play much more than Uxx decks or combo..
I agree on RiP after Turn 5 and Disenchant (I do not play it myself). Ancient Grudge is definitely on the board of Grixis Delver with the amount of Blade decks running around. Kolaghan's Command is the new trend in bigger Grixis Delver lists and very present in Grixis Control builds (Which I find heavily unfavorable for D&T mainly because Kommand is a huge blow everytime).Quote:
Originally Posted by grayryker
Yes Kolaghans Command is a complete disaster for us.Quote:
Originally Posted by IRS
So based off that list: https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/613117#paperQuote:
Originally Posted by CptHaddock
I'm now at
-1 Cavern + 1 Plains (with Miracles gone you can go lighter on Caverns)
-1 Mirran -1 SotL + 2 Serra Avengers / or testing out random stuff.
Have actually been trying Thraben Inspector lately, haven't had enough games with it to come to any real conclusion.
In the board I have been playing with:
2 Faerie
2 Containment Priest
2 Ethersworn
2 Relic Warder
2 Mirran Crusader
1 Cunning Sparkmage
3 Path to Exile
1 Sanctum Prelate
If I were going to an event soon, I think I would try to have at least 3 spots in the board for Czech Pile, which I think a lot of people consider the deck to beat right now. Rest in Peace is solid and I think Fiendslayer Paladin or Mystic Crusader are both cards we should be playing around with. Fiendslayer Paladin is more useful vs Delver and Burn, but Mystic Crusader has evasion (eventually) / won't be halted by a wall of Snapcasters and Deathrites or a Leovold.
So maybe something like:
2 Faerie
1 Containment Priest
2 Ethersworn
2 RIP
1 Relic Warder
1 Mirran Crusader
1 Fiendslayer Paladin
1 Mystic Crusader
1 Cunning Sparkmage
3 Path to Exile
I think Fiendslayer Paladin is better than the Mystic Crusader in this match-up. If we're bringing Rest in Peace, it kind of negates the Mystic Crusader's evasion, which is its main appeal over Paladin. Without threshold, Paladin is more evasive on the board getting around Strix, Snapcaster, and Deathrite Shaman. With an equipment on, its a much better card usually. Currently, I'm running a human tribal version of DnT and I like the 1/1 split between Fiendslayer and Mirran Crusader, being able to use Recruiter to fetch whichever beater is superior in a given match-up.Quote:
Originally Posted by iatee
I'm starting to see some lists play Liliana the Last Hope in the sideboard. That card can single-handedly beat this deck like the other 3-drops in that deck. Sanctum Prelate seems like our best board protection on x=3, with Mother of Runes to protect it (hopefully).
Yeah, that's a good point, I hadn't even thought about it - we're so not graveyard dependent that you forget that RiP ever has downsides. Still 'real' pro-RB means that Mystic Crusader (or Paladin En-Vec) still has evasion and gets past everything that isn't Snapcaster or TNN.Quote:
Originally Posted by grayryker