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Oh, the apostasy!
Brian DeMars · Writer at Channel Fireball
Benjamin Rodgers it's theorycraft - so nothing is "always" right, but I see it as an observable trend. When delver wasn't the best - it was because miracles existed. Miracles is a prison deck and we saw the xerox prison dynamic there.
@morphberlin: Its boring, beatable, but very good ATM. I think the format right now allows room for some interesting deck choices to beat it. I look forward to the cycle returning of fair blue decks dominate > mid-range decks beats up fair blue decks > combo beats up mid-range decks > fair blue decks beat up on combo decks.
EDIT: Fairly sure someone piloting Dredge will come out of left field at a fairly large event and bust some nuts in the near future.
It really makes you wonder why R&D has never released cheap cantrip hate in the same way they bombarded the shit out of the GY with a plethora of hate.Quote:
Originally Posted by maharis
Seriously, all card draw hate cards 2+ mana, with the exception of Mental Misstep (which was aimed at Brainstorm, but turned out to be a piss-poor design). It's only logical that the hate cards are outmanoeuvered by cheaper "threats", just in the same way creatures do when Standard has shitty, overcosted removal.
A green or white 1 mana dude that prevented any player from drawing more than 1 card a turn would be pretty sweet. Don't know if it would be too good though. Spirit of the Labyrinth is just not good enough.
Not only that, it got the powerful end game of a prison deck but it got the turbo xerox power of 12 cantrips to filterQuote:
Originally Posted by maharis
I don't think it's the best deck in the format, it's certainly tied with 4c Control as one of the best decks. Playing on MTGO makes you realize how foolish it actually is to play a deck without 4x Brainstorm, 4x Ponder.Quote:
Originally Posted by MorphBerlin
Even our weekly local events at this point are telling me that. I generally go 3-1 no matter what I play, but the 4-0's are almost always Grixis or Blade decks.Quote:
Originally Posted by CptHaddock
Restricted in legacy is honestly just a stupid concept.Quote:
Originally Posted by non-inflammable
Swear to god because my opponent draws his mono force and i don't won't really help the game.
Restriced is in vintage pretty much only because they cant really ban the p9, but allow a full playset of such cards would mean having 90% of the decks without lands and ending the game on turn 1
Wizards did not create EDH and the format became what it is without them. They don't even control it, as the bans in the format are decided independently of Wizards.Quote:
Originally Posted by non-inflammable
While they absorbed it for profit, they don't "Sanction" it. The format is it's own beast. When they did try and control it, removing it from the online space in lieu of their own specialised attempt at the format, the reaction forced them to reinstate it.
Also, something that might sound odd but is true: EDH is extremely consistent. I play Gitrog right now. If I open with Dakmore Salvage I win. If I use any one of my many tutors to find it I win. If I draw into it I win. Having access at will to any one Legendary creature in the game allows for a level of consistency unseen in Legacy, even with mostly singleton cards.
Yep; Brago is also insane, and he's stupidly easy to build around. Of course, one problem with the format is that it's almost impossible to deal with commanders satisfactorily without D- Standard superstars like Imprisoned in the Moon. Sort of inspired me to build something to slap the format in the face. (I never run out my commander; I just like having five colors to mess with. Been thinking of switching from Atogatog to General Tazri for added zaniness. I'm not running any Atogs or Allies.)Quote:
Originally Posted by Dice_Box
Do you think that level of consistency would be achievable without "The Command Zone?" I actually think that's less a feature of the format than it is a pitfall.
consistency is a feature of the format because of the efficient cards allowed. Some decks use command zone but its not really necessary to achieve deck consistency in the format. I play 5c hermit druid and don't care what my commander is. I'd play this deck vs any legacy deck any day cause its more powerful imo. The only time i really lose in 1v1 is drawing poorly or opponent gets faster hand and i don't have disruption. These things are a product of card games in general tho. In 4 player games it's different.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronald Deuce
Not to the same level. I look at it like this: My first Demonic Tutor for half my combo is free, my second Tutor costs me the going rate. It isn't until I have to cast tutor a third time it becomes a hassle. If you take away free tutors, of course you will harm consistency.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronald Deuce
But I don't feel like that is an issue. Building a deck with a budget or playing with a precon can be a lot of fun. You don't see so much of a pitfall in having access to a commander outside of the hyper competitive decks. I am looking right now at building a deck with a 100 us limit. Just so I don't stomp everyone around me all the time. It's actually really enjoyable. A throw back to the days I played Thorn Elemental and thought it was the best thing ever.
That feeling is really hard to find outside of commander.
While I don't disagree with you, as access to upward of 10 to 15 tutors in a tuned deck will let you do things like this, using your commander is still a good way to help. I run Druid in Gitrog, and when it triggers I likely win. But that doesn't take away from the benefits gained with that extra card always sitting in my back pocket.Quote:
Originally Posted by apple713
For all those who argue that DRS doesn't deserve to be on the chopping block sooner or later:
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/format-staples/legacy
So DRS is currently in 47% of all Legacy decks online. So I took a closer look at all decks that run DRS. The kicker? ~95% of said decks that run DRS also run blue. It's about as blue as it can get as a card.
There are a million reasons why you shouldn't cite that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barook
You can't solve a blue problem by banning non-blue cards. Even if DRS is banned, the blue creatures are still better than non-blue equivalents in the context of the blue cantrip-fueled format. Taking out DRS may get rid of some of the greedier decks, but we will still be in Delver vs. U midrange land when it comes to fair deck choices.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barook
From power level and ubiquity metrics, DRS is certainly bannable. But those clearly aren't the metrics used in Legacy because Brainstorm is still unbanned.
Yep, right now UBx is the most popular archetype on MTGO so there are a metric shitton of Grixis Delver/4c Control compared to other archetypes. So that number is based on the abnormally high amount of UBx decks and the limited amount of 5-0s they post per day.Quote:
Originally Posted by LOLWut
But that's exactly why I posted this because the arguement is flawed, in the same way "SDT mustn't be banned because it also helps non-blue fringe deck that make up like less than 1% of the total meta while Miracles dominates with it 3 years straight!" was. DRS is mainly abused by blue decks. What non-blue decks are left after that? Elves, and a few fringe decks like Maverick, Jund and Nic Fit.Quote:
Originally Posted by maharis
A good chunk of the format is based on DRS + Brainstorm decks right now. While the numbers aren't exactly accurate due to Wizards' stupid bullshit, the latest Legacy Challenge Top 32 mirrors the same thing:
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/tourname...0799023#online
50% DRS decks, with a lone Elves deck (Julian), but the other 15/16 (93.75%) are DRS/Brainstorm based.
Banning both Brainstorm and DRS would be the best thing, but Brainstorm isn't going to happen anytime soon since the responsible people have a raging hard-on for that card.
Question is: Why is the DRS/Brainstorm deck number so high? Probably because it's the best thing you can do in the format right now. You get a silly amount of flexibility, consistency and resilience out of it at minimum deckbuilding cost.Quote:
Originally Posted by CptHaddock
Isn't Legacy mainly blue decks...?Quote:
Originally Posted by Barook
Welcome to Combo: The Format thenQuote:
Originally Posted by Barook
D&T is DTB.Quote:
Originally Posted by maharis
So I would say the fair deck choices are Delver, Blue Midrange, and D&T.
This is actually better options than combo or hard-control players have, especially considering how different UR Prowess is to Grixis Delvet; and UW Stoneblade is to Czech Pile.
I think the meta is fine, but maybe we'll get something new for Fish in the next block? Still hoping for a Recruiter Unban also.
Nonblue decks can replace DRS . Sure, none are as good but nonblue decks are hit much less by a DRS ban than blue decks are. Maverick / elves have drop in replacements with Noble Hierarch / Llanowar Elves / Birds of Paradise. Blue decks have nothing to replace him with. And blue decks shouldn't get a mana dork off of underground sea.
Before you cry about the role of grave hate that DRS gives fair decks, I will remind you the graveyard is still the most hated area in all of magic. Leyline, Surgical, and Faerie exist for turn 0 interaction. Mana dork turn 1 into Scooze turn 2 provides the same speed that Deathrite would have (albeit vulnerable to a Thoughtseize...but not a big deal IMO). Tormod's Crypt and Relic of Progenitus still exist. The list goes on.
People might even be tempted to dust off their Goblin Lackeys.
That doesn't matter. BOP/Hierarch are substantially worse than DRS and the threats that the decks that would play them instead ramp into are worse than the morass of OP blue creatures.Quote:
Originally Posted by rlesko
U Sea decks replace DRS with Thoughtseize/Fatal Push and just use those turn 1 to rip apart whatever plan their opponents are on before casting their threats on curve. Strix is still better than Bob. TNN is still better than Knight. Leovold is still better than Renegade Rallier. Snap still better than EWit. Shardless > BBE and so forth.
The argument wasn't flawed. The card was banned and there is still a UW terminus/mentor control deck. Meanwhile Painter is nowhere to be seen. Nic Fit lost a terrible matchup and still didn't rise up.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barook
I'm happy to see it banned at some point but now is not the right time. Banning it won't make the U decks any worse relatively speaking. When no one has access to it any non-U deck that wanted to play it will be weakened as well and the relative strength of those decks will still be too low.
http://i.imgur.com/CbzcGwv.jpg
Dare to dream lads.
Source
Fake, there's no Survival is unbanned and will suck (well maybe not as much without grizzly and probe).
Funny how legacy has actually become a "ban everything but the blue cantrip that can't be named" nowadays. It was parody before, but it's now actually true. Like, you could've toned down miracles, SnT-Reanimator (Aka grizzly) AND grixis tempo all in one move, instead we got a SDT ban and we may get a probe and DRS ban next because surprise surprise, drawing 3 is pretty good.
At this point i fully expect fetchlands to be banned before that which can't be named.
EDIT: also i was saying ages ago that a SDT ban was wrong cause it would've made the generic blue tempo shell too good, reducing diversity considerably. And lo-and-behold, grixis is now 20% of the online meta, higher than miracle (which floated at about 15-20%, despite being higher in terms of T8 representations), and grixis with leovold that can activate DRS life gain ability is at 15%, making the aggregate 35%, and the rest of the top decks are storm and grixis green without red.
Miracle also forced a lot of deck to play fair, see AD which meant tempo grixis was simply not good enough and had to either play shitty mana bases, forgoe red or actually have a bad MU. Without BS, the deck would've lost the instant sweeper and multiple miracles aspect, making going wide viable vs it, while still forcing extreme tempo and combo lists to be fairer. Miracle was decisively too good, but had a good effect on the format. Instead now we got turbo-modern.
No Mentor restriction and no Gush unrestriction? Unreasonable. Oh and a lack of Survival makes me sad. Also, nedleeds, you disappoint me, no Brainstorm?
Also i heard that basically everyone agreed that mentor has to be restricted, instead i see even more shop hate?
Needless not putting BS there is because he acknowledge the fact that it simply can't be banned nowadays. Also, banning BS without SDT around is risky because of non-SnT combo. You'd either have to ban one between petal and probe or unban SDT.
Any chance you'll unban Nedleeds in the next B&R announcment on Monday? :smile::tongue:Quote:
Originally Posted by Dice_Box
How do you define better in the this context? Combo players have Storm, S&T, MonoR and Turbo Depths.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crimhead
In the sense of arithmetic. 5>4?Quote:
Originally Posted by MorphBerlin
- D&T
- UR Prowess
- Grixis Delver
- UW Stoneblade
- Czeck Pile
I'm not even including Pyro Control, Team America, or Deathblade, simply to avoid the argument that they are too similar to other decks listed.
Also, while mono :r: prison seems to be a good deck, it's not combo. Is mono :r: Sneak Attack actually getting results?
Either way, if anybody who complains the format needs more fair deck options but stays silent about other play-styles is clearly biased. Me I like to play hard control little or no aggression. I have exactly 2 choices.
Well in you post you cited 3 fair decks so I was thinking combo would be ahead. :tongue: Also I forgot Turbo depths
While MonoR is “prison“ not combo to me it is in the unfair category. Basically it tries to win by landing a T1/T2 lockpiece and what nonsese they play afterwards doenst matter (this is why people like the deck so they can win with their glorybringers in legacy.) It's a deck where FoW is you best friend, which makes it more similar to eg BR Reanimator than any fair deck
Edit: UR Powess and Grixis delver is also not really diffent though and Stoneblade is not competitive. I think the balance between fair and unfair decks is fine atm. The fair ones are slightly ahead but thats howbit should be in my opinion. Only hard control is kind of underrepresented as new Miracles is not very present. I think a DRS ban would shift the meta towards combo to much for my liking. BS ban would be even worse
I listed all 5 of those decks in the text you quoted.Quote:
Originally Posted by MorphBerlin
I'm willing to accept a definition of 'fair' that doesn't include prison or hard control. But I don't think we should lump them in with combo decks.
Right, I edited my post.
Of course they are worse. But the key is to not give blue decks that are unwilling to play green the opportunity to ramp into their dudes. If they want to play Thoughtseize instead that is fine - at least they'll have to wait until turn 3 to slam true name or pyromancer + therapy.Quote:
Originally Posted by maharis
So, here's a potentially off the wall suggestion.
When Mystical Tutor was banned, there was a good amount of fuss and complaint that the card didn't need to be banned, largely helped in how badly written the banning explanation was. However, over time complaints waned considerably, apparently in large part because of how good Miracles became and the belief that Mystical Tutor would put it even more over the top.
With Sensei's Divining Top banned and the Miracle mechanic weakened as a result, is there any consideration of a Mystical Tutor unban?
Super good idea, playing against 8 not 4 show and tells sounds super fun.
Yeah, not to mention Storm in general, or Mystical into x (L. Souls, Therapy, etc), Predict naming x, Snapcaster on x later.
No, it was a good ban, and would be only slightly less stupid than the Flash unban was.
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Just what blue decks need! More consistency!
This.Quote:
Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee
Not to mention the stupidity of on-demand Miracles. :mad:
Why entreating the angels when you can hire them for one mana?
If any unfair deck needs to be empowered, i'd really like Frantic Search to be unbanned. High Tide is a fun mechanic (at least for the deck's owner) and going off turn 3 would make it as fast as the other combo decks in the format.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gheizen64
What ok earth is this supposed to mean:laugh: Grixis green without red is BUG then in my logic