Miracle Control

Moat Moat Moat Moat Moat Moat!

Hey all,

Long time player, first time poster. I've been doing a lot of tinkering with Miracles and just came up with an idea i think needs some discussion.

Keranos, God of Storms in the main deck. In either the Normal version or possibly the Ponderless Legends version.

Am i crazy or does Keranos bring a lot the deck. He is either extra draw, removal or a win con. I was thinking 2 md in the legends version. Possibly replacing a Jace. 1 in the normal also replacing the jace.

Not sure though. Thoughts anyone?

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Originally Posted by Son Alexander

Hey all,

Long time player, first time poster. I've been doing a lot of tinkering with Miracles and just came up with an idea i think needs some discussion.

Keranos, God of Storms in the main deck. In either the Normal version or possibly the Ponderless Legends version.

Am i crazy or does Keranos bring a lot the deck. He is either extra draw, removal or a win con. I was thinking 2 md in the legends version. Possibly replacing a Jace. 1 in the normal also replacing the jace.

Not sure though. Thoughts anyone?

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And then you meet RUG, BUG, Grixis, BURg Delver, Death and Taxes, Storm and feel sad.

He's amazing in the board, for Shardless, Jund and stuff like that.

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Originally Posted by Quasim0ff

And then you meet RUG, BUG, Grixis, BURg Delver, Death and Taxes, Storm and feel sad.

He's amazing in the board, for Shardless, Jund and stuff like that.

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I can understand storm. But what about him makes me sad against any delver deck? Aside from him being 5 mana?

Not looking for sarcasm. I would like detailed information as to the pros and cons of at all possible.

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Originally Posted by Son Alexander

I can understand storm. But what about him makes me sad against any delver deck? Aside from him being 5 mana?

Not looking for sarcasm. I would like detailed information as to the pros and cons of at all possible.

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Well... Him being 5 mana? :D

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Originally Posted by Quasim0ff

Well... Him being 5 mana? :D

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If that's the only concern then i think it merits testing with at least 1. Jace is 4 mana. Once Keranos sticks he really can't be stopped by the delver decks. He blanks hand disruption, can't be killed by anything in the format from those decks save certain situations, helps keep the board clear for free and deals with plainswalkers.

I asked this based on the meta shift after losing dig through time. Im well aware Bug is coming back with a vengeance, which brings with it lily, stifle and Wasteland. Losing dig also means more discard like thoughtseize, hymn and inquisition.

The other bonus is you can have Jace and Keranos in play at the same time. He also pitches to FoW. Im having a difficult time seeing the cons to him which is why I asked.

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Originally Posted by Son Alexander

If that's the only concern then i think it merits testing with at least 1. Jace is 4 mana. Once Keranos sticks he really can't be stopped by the delver decks. He blanks hand disruption, can't be killed by anything in the format from those decks save certain situations, helps keep the board clear for free and deals with plainswalkers.

I asked this based on the meta shift after losing dig through time. Im well aware Bug is coming back with a vengeance, which brings with it lily, stifle and Wasteland. Losing dig also means more discard like thoughtseize, hymn and inquisition.

The other bonus is you can have Jace and Keranos in play at the same time. He also pitches to FoW. Im having a difficult time seeing the cons to him which is why I asked.

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Basically is this: you invest your turn without doing nothing to casy Keranos, usually we try to play around those pesky Dazes so it is really probable tgat our opponet have still one in hand so 5 lands risk to became six.
If you resolve jace you get to Bs or bounce while if you resolve keranos you get to... pass, and btw this doesn't make the same advantage of Jace, add that you get to reveal a card per turn and he doesn't deal with x/4s so if you are rushing to find an answer to say tarmogoyf Jace deals with it... Keranos don't
As a winning con also is inevitable but really slow, Jave Jace usually kills in less time if our plan is simply to bury our opponent under card advantage...

Anyone else here hates council's? imo its terrible, a double white slow removal. Its only really good as a lucky topdeck because it eats all the counters in the world anyway with that cost. Casting it at turn 3 to take care of a problematic permanent is risky and opens you up to anything being sorcery speed. If you cast it later you're probably in a fucked up position anyway because of the advantage already gained by target permanent.
So i just chose to play the fourth snapcaster (gold) to pressure liliana and find entreat or burst vs chalice and such.

Oh and i decided to play 2 surgical instead of rip or priest. Its just more efficient.

never liked Council.

In some periods I tried 1 MD Disenchant and now that Bug is back and with it Planeswalkers I am trying back 1 Venser +1 in SB.

I play it for the mirror match as well

RiP instead has a wider use. it stops commo creatures like Snapmage, Tarmogoyf and Dearhrite Shaman as well as it helps keeping Delve creatures in their hands
Surgical instead is better against Reanimator and Lands.

Matchups for which we already play Containment Priest and Blood Moon.

In next meta I prefer RiP.
For Flashy answers we already have Priest

Keranos is great against Gaddock Teeg decks. Against everything else Terminus/Vendilion is just better

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Originally Posted by Gros

Basically is this: you invest your turn without doing nothing to casy Keranos, usually we try to play around those pesky Dazes so it is really probable tgat our opponet have still one in hand so 5 lands risk to became six.
If you resolve jace you get to Bs or bounce while if you resolve keranos you get to... pass, and btw this doesn't make the same advantage of Jace, add that you get to reveal a card per turn and he doesn't deal with x/4s so if you are rushing to find an answer to say tarmogoyf Jace deals with it... Keranos don't
As a winning con also is inevitable but really slow, Jave Jace usually kills in less time if our plan is simply to bury our opponent under card advantage...

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Thank you. This was the explanation i was looking for.

In the current meta. How would you guys sideboard?

Im currently planning on
2x Pyroblast
1x Red Elemental blast
2x Vendilion Clique
2x Rest in Peace
1x Supreme Verdict
1x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Wear//Tear
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Keranos, God of Storms
1x Containment Priest
1x Misdirection
1x Circle of protection Red

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Originally Posted by Son Alexander

In the current meta. How would you guys sideboard?

Im currently planning on
2x Pyroblast
1x Red Elemental blast
2x Vendilion Clique
2x Rest in Peace
1x Supreme Verdict
1x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Wear//Tear
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Keranos, God of Storms
1x Containment Priest
1x Misdirection
1x Circle of protection Red

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what's the circle for? Goblins?

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Originally Posted by Poron

what's the circle for? Goblins?

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I was under the impression burn would be played in Seattle because of the shift. During play testing against burn i found miracles got into trouble at points. But a cop locked it out. Thought it was worth considering.

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Originally Posted by Gros

Basically is this: you invest your turn without doing nothing to casy Keranos, usually we try to play around those pesky Dazes so it is really probable tgat our opponet have still one in hand so 5 lands risk to became six.
If you resolve jace you get to Bs or bounce while if you resolve keranos you get to... pass, and btw this doesn't make the same advantage of Jace, add that you get to reveal a card per turn and he doesn't deal with x/4s so if you are rushing to find an answer to say tarmogoyf Jace deals with it... Keranos don't
As a winning con also is inevitable but really slow, Jave Jace usually kills in less time if our plan is simply to bury our opponent under card advantage...

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Keranos is a great card against Shardless. Their only real wincon after Keranos has resolved would be Goyf and Tarpit (some run TNN), everything else will just die. Outside of Shardless, it's ok in the mirror if it somehow did not get blasted on stack. That... is really it. To screw Shardless, I agree with the Blood Moon, you can try it for that Keranos spot. Blood Moon just does more in other MUs, MUD, 12 Posts, Infect, Tezzerat... etc.

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Originally Posted by Ocean

Anyone else here hates council's? imo its terrible, a double white slow removal. Its only really good as a lucky topdeck because it eats all the counters in the world anyway with that cost. Casting it at turn 3 to take care of a problematic permanent is risky and opens you up to anything being sorcery speed. If you cast it later you're probably in a fucked up position anyway because of the advantage already gained by target permanent.
So i just chose to play the fourth snapcaster (gold) to pressure liliana and find entreat or burst vs chalice and such.

Oh and i decided to play 2 surgical instead of rip or priest. Its just more efficient.

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This argument strikes me as strange. Risky or not, it's MU dependent. What are the prime cards for CJ? Null rod, Vial, Chalice, TNN, and Liliana. Cast CJ on any of these, except against Merfolk, CJ will probably resolve. Decks running these cards are not combo deck, most of time, not sure what risk is there. I'm sure the Europeans would agree with you on Snapcaster, but... I personally dislike relying on it too much. I am actually considering running More CJ. Recently there're SO MANY Null rods, so much SDT hate, naturally we cannot rely on EE to take care of problematic permanent in this case.

The one issue I have with CJ is the WW requirement, which is rather difficult against DnT.

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Originally Posted by Son Alexander

I was under the impression burn would be played in Seattle because of the shift. During play testing against burn i found miracles got into trouble at points. But a cop locked it out. Thought it was worth considering.

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Burn will be played anywhere, not to sound like an elitist, but the deck is the most budget friendly option and it can be easily converted to Modern. So yeah, it's not all that surprising. Some people use Baneslayer or Sphere of Law instead. A Lot of Goblins have White SB cards like Thalia and Wear//Tear for combo MU, Burn has destructive revelry, something for you to watch out for.

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Originally Posted by Son Alexander

I was under the impression burn would be played in Seattle because of the shift. During play testing against burn i found miracles got into trouble at points. But a cop locked it out. Thought it was worth considering.

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I'd say you're doing something else wrong, burn is a GREAT matchup for Miracles in my experience.

The Top lock is your biggest advantage in this match, so you want to aggressively dig and try to stay alive to establish it. Snapcast Viper their Guides/Eidolons, counterspell Bolts, fetch basics to play around Price of Progress, whatever you need to do. They are on the "resolve 7 spells that each do 3 or more damage" plan, so anything that breaks up that plan keeps you alive.

COP is great in theory, but in practice they'll just play lands and attack with creatures and hold all their burn spells. Now you're in a situation where you can't tap out for a Jace or Entreat or anything else that might actually win you the game; if you do, they'll throw every spell in their hand at your face. Hamstringing your mana to avoid damage in the early game actually benefits their plan more than yours, as that mana would be much better spent digging into a Top lock.

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Originally Posted by PhyrexianLibrarian

I'd say you're doing something else wrong, burn is a GREAT matchup for Miracles in my experience.

The Top lock is your biggest advantage in this match, so you want to aggressively dig and try to stay alive to establish it. Snapcast Viper their Guides/Eidolons, counterspell Bolts, fetch basics to play around Price of Progress, whatever you need to do. They are on the "resolve 7 spells that each do 3 or more damage" plan, so anything that breaks up that plan keeps you alive.

COP is great in theory, but in practice they'll just play lands and attack with creatures and hold all their burn spells. Now you're in a situation where you can't tap out for a Jace or Entreat or anything else that might actually win you the game; if you do, they'll throw every spell in their hand at your face. Hamstringing your mana to avoid damage in the early game actually benefits their plan more than yours, as that mana would be much better spent digging into a Top lock.

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Makes perfect sense. What about the rest of my board? What would you add or remove?

Maybe I'm just bad, but I've lost both times (0-2) vs. burn at the last FNM legacy D:
I'm by no means no pro, the only thing I think I'm good at is speed. I have yet had any draws with the deck, and have played for ~8months, including 6-3 finish at GP Lille. And would say my skill level is above average.

My opponent had Eidelon both games all 4 games tho. Is this the most likely the cause? Should one muligan aggresively for this matchup? (trying to fish CB post board)


EDIT: @SonAlexander, I'd actually play a Fact or Fiction in place of Jace. I've blown people out with this card while waiting for my 3rd Jace :D

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Originally Posted by PhyrexianLibrarian

I'd say you're doing something else wrong, burn is a GREAT matchup for Miracles in my experience.

The Top lock is your biggest advantage in this match, so you want to aggressively dig and try to stay alive to establish it. Snapcast Viper their Guides/Eidolons, counterspell Bolts, fetch basics to play around Price of Progress, whatever you need to do. They are on the "resolve 7 spells that each do 3 or more damage" plan, so anything that breaks up that plan keeps you alive.

COP is great in theory, but in practice they'll just play lands and attack with creatures and hold all their burn spells. Now you're in a situation where you can't tap out for a Jace or Entreat or anything else that might actually win you the game; if you do, they'll throw every spell in their hand at your face. Hamstringing your mana to avoid damage in the early game actually benefits their plan more than yours, as that mana would be much better spent digging into a Top lock.

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Burn is in no way "an excellent matchup". Burn is fine, but not unloseable, like...

Also: Keranos is INSANE(!) versus Jund. I expect both Jund and Shardless to be be more represented after DTT doesn't wreck both.

Keranos is impossible to resolve in the mirror, after everyone is playing 3 REB effects.

Regarding your sideboard: Do you play maindeck mentor? i don't think a miracles list w/o mentor is viable anymore, as Mentor makes some matchup actually more even (12-post, MUD both comes to mind; Mentor is strong versus both, as he closes games out so fast).

I would also find room for flusterstorm which is, imho, a necessity to play, as Storm, Show and Tell, the mirror as well as Tempo-decks (RUG, BUG, BURg, Grixis) are so well-represented.
I don't think Ethersworn Canonist is good anymore, as Sneak and Show are now the dominant Show and Tell deck again (due to Omnitell being garbage again :D), where Canonist isn't as strong, as they don't need to play any more spells are Show and Tell resolves.

I think it's too much to actually dedicate something for Burn, but if I was to do so, I'd much rather have something like Blue Elemental Blast.
I'm not a big fan of Misdirection, even though it's cute again (shardless) bug-decks, with respectively Hymn, A.Visions and Decay.

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Originally Posted by Quasim0ff

Burn is in no way "an excellent matchup". Burn is fine, but not unloseable, like...

Also: Keranos is INSANE(!) versus Jund. I expect both Jund and Shardless to be be more represented after DTT doesn't wreck both.

Keranos is impossible to resolve in the mirror, after everyone is playing 3 REB effects.

Regarding your sideboard: Do you play maindeck mentor? i don't think a miracles list w/o mentor is viable anymore, as Mentor makes some matchup actually more even (12-post, MUD both comes to mind; Mentor is strong versus both, as he closes games out so fast).

I would also find room for flusterstorm which is, imho, a necessity to play, as Storm, Show and Tell, the mirror as well as Tempo-decks (RUG, BUG, BURg, Grixis) are so well-represented.
I don't think Ethersworn Canonist is good anymore, as Sneak and Show are now the dominant Show and Tell deck again (due to Omnitell being garbage again :D), where Canonist isn't as strong, as they don't need to play any more spells are Show and Tell resolves.

I think it's too much to actually dedicate something for Burn, but if I was to do so, I'd much rather have something like Blue Elemental Blast.
I'm not a big fan of Misdirection, even though it's cute again (shardless) bug-decks, with respectively Hymn, A.Visions and Decay.

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All fantastic information. Thank you.

So cut the ethersworn and cop for 2x Flusterstorm. Cut the Misdirection (even though i love that card and it catches people off guard) for say another Containment Priest?

Do i have enough against the creature decks?

I'm running the stock version of miracles with no mentor. As much as i like mentor I've never found a use for him in either main or board. I usually come across top hate so mentor is difficult to utilize.

Also... is the legends version worth considering?

2x V Clique
2x Venser
2x Snapcaster Mage
1x Karakas
1x Cavern of Souls

???