Can anybody post the list? Or can Medea fix the connection error?Quote:
Originally Posted by redtwister
Printable View
Can anybody post the list? Or can Medea fix the connection error?Quote:
Originally Posted by redtwister
I'm aware of the issue. My tech guy who resets it is on vacation and might night be able to get to it for a little while. Looks like I need to learn how to do that myself...Quote:
Originally Posted by Barook
My stock WW list at the moment is something like:
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Flickerwisp
4 Mother of Runes
2 Recruiter of the Guard
2 Mirran Crusader
2 Serra Avenger
1 Sanctum Prelate
3 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Aether Vial
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
2 Cavern of Souls
3 Karakas
10 Plains
Sideboard
2 Rest in Peace
2 Containment Priest
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Path to Exile
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Council's Judgment
Quote:
Originally Posted by Medea_
Would like to second this exact list, particularly the 37 spells. This is what stock DnT looks like.
For reference, this is the most recent list of mine I have on the internets: http://www.hareruyamtg.com/jp/k/kD08340W/
(Note that the Swords to Plowshares in the board is a mistake and is actually a Sword of War and Peace. This is also intentionally very low on graveyard, bump up the RiP numbers and add Surgical or Macabre if you expect Reanimator and Friends)
The 26 creatures are perfect. This is not to say that they are set in stone and you can't change them if you have good reason, but it is well balanced, no nonsense, and has 4 of all the good ones. There are lots of fair decks so the Avengers and Crusaders represent your rumbling potential, and are a good clock at worst. You can fiddle around and find room for a Palace Jailer, Spirit of the Labyrinth, etc. if you think they are particularly good, but if you are unsure what to play this is a great starting point. I don't see any reason for cute or durdly one ofs at the moment. Prelate is the only one-of I advocate for right now, but thats the number that I have felt is correct for a long time and it still feels right. All the 2 and 3 ofs more than pull their weight, and the 4-ofs require no introduction.
The 11 spells rarely ever change, and there is no reason to be playing with them now. The best three equipment just are what they are.
I am generally in the "9 Plains plus have some fun with my lands" camp, hence the Mishra's Factory, but 10 Plains and 2 Caverns is a pretty good sweet spot of strong utility and limited nonsense.
Last week, Martin Nielsen played Death and Taxes in a legacy league. He also wrote some words about the deck. I've been thinking about switching from Maverick to Death and Taxes but I'm unsure how good both decks are at the moment.
More at: https://snapcardster.com/blog/the-fun-police/
We have an Ixalan preview card that is worth discussing.
Kimalla's Sunwing
2W
Creature - Dinosaur
Flying
Creatures your opponents control enter the battlefield tapped.
2/3
Notably, we can't search for this with Recruiter of the Guard, and I don't think it's good enough; I think we'd rather play Thalia, Heretic Cathar. But, still, it's interesting.
Image on Mythic Spoiler: http://mythicspoiler.com/ixa/cards/kimallassunwing.html
Hello,
To be honest I cannot see any advantage over Thalia, Heretic Cathar. The body is not interesting; a 2/3 trades one for one with delver and takes all imaginable hate. Thalia taps both lands and creatures, is legendary thus interacts with Karakas, plus has first strike and is tutorable, for the exact mana cost. At the moment, Thalia is already too heavy on mana, and thus not fulfilling its disruption duty early enough. I believe the 2W cost, or worse 1WW cost, is pretty high at the moment, so only worth to enter creatures/spells at that cost that are truly reversing momentum, or at least giving you an edge in the game.
I always lean towards an aggro suite in a mono white shell, with 3 Avengers and 2 Crusaders. This deck isn't a pure prison deck so it needs to apply offensive pressure as soon as possible because eventually the taxing wears off (if it taxed at all). I also don't mind the old lists with 3-4 Vryn Wingmare that is useful in combat (trading delver, evasion) and taxes simultaneously.
If THC is on the wrong side of the line of playability in most cases, that is too. If we are getting white dinos of that ilk though, we might be able to find a new toy in the set.
I'm a huge fan of the 9 Plains + 3 Flex Lands manabase. The 10th Plains is just my favorite flex land. Its this awesome nonbasic that produces all your colors, and is also immune to Wasteland and Blood Moon!Quote:
Originally Posted by geneyquakes
How are people feeling about Revoker these days, specifically against Czech Pile and Mentor Control/Miracles. It has more live targets in Czech Pile, but I find myself boarding it out in that matchup because it is pretty unexciting most of the time.
Against Mentor Control/Miracles, the only cards to name are JTMS or EE. Still, I feel like JTMS is a pretty integral part of their deck, and you want all the bodies you can muster. How does everyone else sideboard against the deck? I find myself changing up my plan a lot, with Council's Judgment and Plow being the big cards that I'm never sure about how many, if any, make sense.
Quote:
Originally Posted by WashableWater1
Thats true. I think that 8 is the bare, bare minimum for mono-white and then there are 4 more slots. Plains is usually first place by a lot for the first slot, and there is a hypothetic combination of Wasteland, Back to Basics, and Price of Progress that exists where 12 Plains would be right.
I just personally like attacking Jace with Mishra's Factory way too much.
As for Revoker, it is often something I want 1 or 2 of against fair decks but there is no need to overload. You want as many as possilble against Storm and Sneak Attack, and exactly zero in some spots, but against DRS decks with few other targets I will often want 1, and against Jace decks I like two as spot.
Against Czech Pile, Revokers are usually right on the 57~63 borderline, you can leave them in or cut them depending on how much is coming in or out. You get a lot of value out of the first, but then they drop off. They are hardly ever awful though, as it hits their best card and the lynchpin of their manabase. My default is two if there are a lot of walkers and one if there aren't.
How much I sideboard against UW depends on how heavily they are going in on Mentor. If it looks like a 3-4 Mentor deck plus things like Clique and SCM then I don't mind having a lot. 4 can be overkill, but undisrupted Mentors murder us very quickly. I like 2 Revokers here because of Jace, but wouldn't mind 3 if there are excess Walkers, multiple EE, or anything like that. Gideons and any pro-white sword are excellent here. Council's Judgment kills Jace and is a general catch all. If they are extremely cantrip or Snapcaster heavy Ethersworn Canonist is also fine to have. As for cuts, I often do something like one Revoker, one Avenger, one Crusader, one or two Plows. All of these are fine but the brawlers just eat plows like anyone else and their stats matter less. Sanctum Prelate is also kind of borderline IMO if they have multiple different costed ways of hitting it, but its also hard to cut against 4x Brainstorm Ponder Portent Plow so that might be going to far. I generally keep the core of the deck the same but trim a little around the edges to clear up some space for a few heavy hitters.
I like to keep 1 Ratchet Bomb in the side. It has universal applications but one particular utility is in killing Empty the Warren and Monastery Mentor tokens. Also kills flipped Delvers (converted cost = 0) and Pyromancer tokens. An overlooked sideboard card I think, especially when DnT has a hard time dealing with tokens without Orzhov Pontiff.Quote:
Originally Posted by geneyquakes
One card I want to replace 1-2 copies of Swords to Plowshares with is Blessed Alliance. It gets around a ton of weird things (Marit Lage, TNN, Leovold, Reality Smasher, etc.) and also do weird things itself with the untap ability. Card is great but wish the card had a cooler art.
^Ratchet Bomb on 0 doesn't work on flipped Delvers anymore.
How's D&T positioned in the current MTGO meta? I'm feeling the itch to play the deck again and looking up the prices, Port prices have finally gone done to a reasonable level.
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/metagame/legacy#online
There is ALOT of Grixis Delver and 4C Leovold decks.
I've been going 3-2 in pretty much every league I play if that means anything. Personally, I don't think D&T is particularly well positioned right now. Even Grixis Delver seems to be just barely favorable now. D&T hosers are more common now that people can actually afford the deck. If I owned the necessary cards, I would be playing Czech Pile myself. It doesn't help that some people are playing Marsh Casualties in the main too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barook
I know this is crazy, but if this is real (I believe it is unconfirmed atm) it might be quite good in the SB:
Settle the Wreckage
Instant
2WW
Exile all attacking creatures target player controls. That player may search his or her library for that many basic land cards, put those cards onto the battlefield tapped, then shuffle his or her library.
I guess I'm late to the party. Oh well it's not too bad on 1 haha...Quote:
Originally Posted by mrjumbo03
Seems interesting. But it feels bad knowing your opponent can do a one-sided wipe of our board with multiple low cmc cards while we need a 4-mana reactive card to blow out theirs...Quote:
Originally Posted by redtwister
WARNING: LONG INFORMATION DUMP POST
I wanted to wait until I had gotten enough tournament games in before I talked about my mono-white list. I had posted it earlier and have tweaked it here and there at times so it's only mildly different. I want to post about my conclusions. If this sounds boring for you or you just don't care that's totally fine. I just felt it was worth sharing after I have had 23 matches with the deck. With that being said, here's my list.
Creatures:
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Mother of Runes
4 Flickerwisp
3 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Recruiter of the Guard
2 Mirran Crusader
2 Serra Avenger
1 Sanctum Prelate
1 Spirit of the Labyrinth
Spells:
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Aether Vial
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
Lands:
10 Plains
1 Cavern of Souls
3 Karakas
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
Sideboard:
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Rest in Peace
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Faerie Macabre
2 Council's Judgment
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
1 Pithing Needle
1 Containment Priest
1 Sanctum Prelate
1 Path to Exile
In addition to keeping track of wins and losses, I kept track of what the record was and against which decks.
Wins: Losses:
Grixis Delver (2-0) 4C Delver (0-2)
Burn (2-0) Grixis Delver (1-2)
Burn (2-0) Miracles (0-2)
Burn (2-1) DNT (0-2)
Elves (2-0)
Esper Deathblade (2-0)
UW Stoneblade (2-1)
4C Waterfalls (2-1)
Lands (2-0)
Mono Red Stompy (2-1)
4C Delver (2-0)
DNT (2-0)
DNT (2-0)
DNT (2-1)
Eureka Tell (2-1)
Eureka Tell (2-1)
Eureka Tell (2-0)
Reanimator (2-1)
Grixis Pyromancer (2-0)
Based on these results you can see I have had a good mix of opponents. Ones that play combo, midrange, and agro decks alike. I wish I had some games against BUG or Czech Pile to show other than playtesting but it is what it is. These results have come from my trip to Cleveland where I played 5 of these matches, and from the newly formed Baltimore Legacy League that I am competing in. I don't think I'm being overconfident in saying that Maryland has a great Legacy scene and community overall, and I wouldn't say more than 2 or 3 of my opponents have been below average. Of course this is all subjective opinion, but take it as you will. There are a few things I want to discuss about the deck and how I feel it has done.
22 Lands
I have played Death and Taxes for about 2 and a half years now and I know the deck like the back of my hand. During this entire time, until GP Vegas, I never played 22 lands. It felt like I was just asking for trouble. Then Calderon won and while I really disliked some of his choices (such as his decision to board out 4 vial in the finals vs. UR Delver and Sword of Light and Shadow being in the deck) a lot of his choices made a lot of sense. The 22 lands scared me though. We have all done the math before, 23 is pretty much the go to number. But I wanted to test the list and thus went with 22 lands for the past matches. I have only lost once to mana screw and it had nothing to do with the land count. Because the card I would have cut did not show up that game. Overall I have had no issue and really like the idea of having that 27th creature. Can I recommend this to everyone? No. Really go with what you think is best. I still find myself reaching for that 23rd land anxiously sometimes, but always stop myself. Take my experience in this case as you will. I like it. Speaking of that card that would be a land...
Spirit of the Labyrinth
One of the most polarizing cards in Death and Taxes. This card has been brought up, played, thrown away, made fun of, and praised endlessly... all by me. And I guess the community too. I would consider myself a 50/50 type of player on this card. I always liked it and felt its ability was powerful. But that 3/1 body simply can't be ignored. Spirit is a card I feel is either typically overhyped with some calling it incredible and should be a 2-3 of, or severely underhyped with some calling it unplayable. All in all, it's good. I actually think right now it's really good and that in general more people should be playing it. The cantrip heavy decks like Miracles, Delver, and Grixis Pyromancer are on the rise as well as blue combo decks. This card has been great against them. At this moment I cannot imagine cutting it. Cool things it has done so far: Made a Sylvan Library, Jace, all my Eureka opponent's cantrips, and a glimpse of nature worthless. What has it not done? The ultimately great brainstorm play... One day pal, one day
Sideboard Faerie Macabre
Medea covered this card best. Don't play it. It's worse than Rest in Peace and Surgical. I don't like this card. This card is a metagame call. For those of you who don't know the Quest for Power 9 series in Maryland had 2 BR Reanimator in the top 8. I got to witness the deck personally as I was commentating (shameless plug). And I will be commentating again this Sunday and expect to see a lot of BR again (so shameless... sorry I'll stop). But in all seriousness the deck has seen a rise in popularity. It's strong, quick, and resilient. And I want to be prepared for it. Let's just say the little Faeries basically won me game 2 vs. UB Reanimator. Awkward Collective Brutality. I would not play this card at a big tournament though. Likely I'd run a Sword of War and Peace since DNT and Miracles are back again, I feel we have a bad Miracles matchup, and because I think Sword of Light and Shadow sucks. It typically does nothing in the matchups I want it. It just give pro white. I'll take war and peace any day personally.
The Wins
The wins have come vs. a variety of decks. The DNT mirrors have either been close struggles that were 2-1 with a really complex game, or a pure blowout where I had 2 vials and killed his revoker, or he turn 2'd a palace jailer because I path'd his Mom and he had ancient tomb in his deck. I am very surprised how well I have faired vs. the combo decks. If you count Lands and burn, I'm 8-0. I don't really see those as combo decks though so more realistically I am 4-0. The secret to winning? Guys I don't know if you know this but... Sanctum Prelate is one hell of a card. Also god drawing against Elves game one is quite effective. I've had some luck in a lot of these wins. I somehow resolved a Judgment on an Omni after flickerwisping it off Show and Tell. I somehow drew Jitte vs. Burn the turn before he was gonna kill me (it was one of the 2-0 games but still). I had my one of Faerie Macabre vs. Reanimator. The list can go on. Overall the deck has functioned beautifully. I never felt like I wish I had a different card save for one week when everyone and their mother played combo and I wish the second Prelate had been main... then the following week when I moved the Prelate main and everyone switched to fair decks. Ah well what can ya do? Besides I've had some bad luck too. Speaking of which...
The Losses
No not all my losses were to "bad luck." This isn't a bad beats story time event. But I do want to talk about the losses and the one or two times I was a little unlucky. The loss to DNT was straightforward. He has 2 vials game one and I don't, and I've talked about what happened game 2 already. The loss to Miracles was confirming my fears that we have a bad game one matchup against them. It was a mentorless version. 4 Terminus, 3 UA, 4 Plow, 4 Snap. It was rough. Game 2 he got Containment Priest and I believe he said a 4th UA. It was really rough. I don't like that matchup at all game one, but with my sideboard and some testing I feel it's about 50/50 post board. Plus spirit is pretty good here. Loss the 4C Delver was due to being outraced by one turn game one thanks to Tombstalker, then drawing 12/22 lands and 4 spells game 2. That was just bad luck. The loss to Grixis Delver was a mull to 5 game 2 and losing a wasteland fight somehow game 3. I had 3 wasteland, he had 3. Problem was he had 3 lands after the wastelanding and I had 1. Seems statistically unlikely and I'd do it again. I wasn't actually that mad about it though since it was my friend who's been working real hard the last 6 months since getting into legacy and who beat me for the first time in tournament. Overall the losses felt like it was variance and one or two bad matchups mixed in. Pretty sure the Ancient tomb DNT version is not a great matchup since he gets access to maindeck Palace Jailer and THC which when I don't have karakas is a little rough.
Final Conclusions
Deck great I'm great. In all seriousness though the deck has functioned great and the general ideas of Calderon I think are really good and worth trying. I'd highly recommend 74/75 and feel this deck is just real good if you're experienced with DNT. But let's be honest. You didn't come here to hear me talk about DNT. You came to see the Thalias I got altered.
http://i.imgur.com/lteeKAX.jpg
Don't be afraid to share your thoughts on this forum. I enjoy reading pretty much everyone here, even if it's an opinion I disagree with.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marungo
But let me nitpick a couple things. Faerie Macabre isn't really a substitute for Rest in Peace. Yes they're both graveyard hate but the reason to run Surgical or Macabre at all is to have a 0-mana free interaction against decks that we can't stop until turn 2. For Reanimator I prefer Macabre because it doesn't get stopped by Chancellor and Brutality; it's also a fun Recruiter target.
Sword of Light and Shadow is most relevant for pro-black - helping you get around Leovold, Gurmag Angler, and Baleful Strix - and recursion against removal heavy decks like Czech Pile which use primary black removals.
22 vs 23 lands is statistically not a big difference. In fact, I would guarantee 99% of people would never notice it in a double blind test unless they play hundreds of matches and built a good internal intuition for how many lands they should see for a given land count. Likewise, similar arguments can be made between 26 vs 27 creatures. The one extra creature is not going to be relevant unless you're building a toolbox deck and that 1 creature plays a key role in certain match-ups.
I agree with you Sanctum Prelate is great. I don't even think he is bad in the fair match-ups at all unless it's very creature heavy like Maverick. When we consider the cost/benefit ratio, this is a dead card in a few match-ups but wins you a ton in many other match-ups. I think it's worth playing 2 in the main, even if it's dead in a couple match-ups. I see some lists play 1 copy in the 75, which I think is a huge unnecessary limitation.
Thanks for the response. I hope you don't mind if I share my thoughts.Quote:
Originally Posted by grayryker
When it comes to 22 lands you're right that the difference is mostly negligible but being that we play recruiter I feel my results were somewhat important. Not only did I not struggle , but the one of utility creature I played was great.
I also agree with you about prelate. I played 2 and felt it was fine and if I had to play 2 main tomorrow over the second crusader, I'd likely be pretty fine with it. I just love me a mirran crusader and worry enough about the fair decks where prelate is mediocre.
I just don't find light and shadow giving pro black worth it. I find that to be largely irrelevant and never really even found myself saying, "man I wish I had a better wuipment to fetch." In the matchups where the cards you listed were prevelent. To each their own but I think the card is pretty mediocre at best and I've played it before and found it just as mediocre. To be fair I have had the exact same opinion about cataclysm my entire time playing the deck so I clearly do not think like other people do about the deck
On macabre, I just think it's strictly worse than extraction. I'm well aware it's not supposed to be an RIP replacement and never treated it as such. It's just another graveyard hate card, but one I can tutor for. I think that because BR is prevelent it deserves a slot. Otherwise though I just think it's a mediocre card by comparison to surgical in every way. Again to each their own.
Overall though I really like some of your thoughts on the deck and how you think about it in general. I personally never found myself wanting pro black but clearly you have an identified that SoLaS is a good fit.