Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Quasim0ff
Burn is in no way "an excellent matchup". Burn is fine, but not unloseable, like...
Also: Keranos is INSANE(!) versus Jund. I expect both Jund and Shardless to be be more represented after DTT doesn't wreck both.
Keranos is impossible to resolve in the mirror, after everyone is playing 3 REB effects.
I don't think Ethersworn Canonist is good anymore, as Sneak and Show are now the dominant Show and Tell deck again (due to Omnitell being garbage again :D), where Canonist isn't as strong, as they don't need to play any more spells are Show and Tell resolves.
The key to victory against Jund is CB floating a cmc 2, preferably floating the back-up CB. It's really not about Keranos. I guess it's possible in theory for Jund to Dark Confidant its way into drawing Red Blast effect to try to blast Keranos on stack.
Canonist is definitely weaker in the current meta. However, let's look at what it's still good at: Storm, Food Chain, Aluren, Elves, and Griselbrand Storm. You might say, Canonist doesn't do anything against Sneak and Show, well, do you intend to replace it with Meddling Mage? MM is a popular alternative since BBD runs it. However, MM can be Red blasted while Canonist cannot. It's fine either way, I'm just pointing out pros/cons of each.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Son Alexander
Also... is the legends version worth considering?
2x V Clique
2x Venser
2x Snapcaster Mage
1x Karakas
1x Cavern of Souls
Legend Miracles by definition should have 2 Karakas. The issue most people have running Legend is the clunky opening. Without Ponders, it's difficult to make land drops on schedule and super vulnerable to stifle/wasteland. When you get to mid/late game, this "dance" of legendary creatures is keeping you alive, but you are not winning. Apparently Lossett is still able to find the winning line and frequently finish his match on time*, but can you say the same for anyone else?
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Son Alexander
All fantastic information. Thank you.
So cut the ethersworn and cop for 2x Flusterstorm. Cut the Misdirection (even though i love that card and it catches people off guard) for say another Containment Priest?
Do i have enough against the creature decks?
I'm running the stock version of miracles with no mentor. As much as i like mentor I've never found a use for him in either main or board. I usually come across top hate so mentor is difficult to utilize.
Do you play Ponder?
Mentor is insane against most decks, especially in the board, due to them cutting most of their removal.
I have a friend who loves MisD too (and I have a find place in my heart, due to vintage), but I've disliked it in legacy due to the powerlevel being somewhat weaker.
I don't think 2 Containment Priest is necessary, I don't even play one (even though I might again). Yes, with Swords, Terminus and Snapcaster mages, you should be fine against creature decks. I don't even think Verdict is good.
Even though I love Keraboss, I think Blood Moon is actually better (and shines in the same matchups - Shardless and Jund basically). It also hit lands (and I even started boarding it versus infect, due to shutting off Nexus).
Even though Mentor might seem "weak" it just makes some matchups actually winable, and you WILL face those decks in larger tournaments - The soulless people of this world (MUD), The people that just want to see the world fall apart (12-Post) and the trolls (Goblins), where Mentor is good.
Angelo Cadai's sideboard is really good, even though I'd likely play 2 RIP over the first surgical as well as Sulfur Elemental over the Izzet Staticaster.
As mentioned by a lot (Smarter) people than me, I don't understand how Lossett puts up the results he does, but he is an incredible player, who tailored his deck to his liking. I think a generic Ponder list is stronger in most peoples hands.
*I would play Pithing Needle currently, over both Canonist as well as Meddling Mage (Chris Pikula artwork)
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
twndomn
Legend Miracles by definition should have 2 Karakas. The issue most people have running Legend is the clunky opening. Without Ponders, it's difficult to make land drops on schedule and super vulnerable to stifle/wasteland. When you get to mid/late game, this "dance" of legendary creatures is keeping you alive, but you are not winning. Apparently Lossett is still able to find the winning line and frequently finish his match on time*, but can you say the same for anyone else?
I didn't realize that you needed 4 Top, 4 Brainstorm, AND 4 Ponder to hit your land drops. I wonder how I ever managed to win a match with this deck [/sarcasm]
Strange that you would suggest the flash creatures can't win the game. I'm confused as to how running Ponders over Cliques wins faster.
There's also the style of deck that was played before Shonegger wrote those articles:
http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/326173#online
That list with the Venser either in the board, or gone altogether. Joe doubled-down on Venser/Clique after people started running 4 Ponder, but a lot of people are having success with just a few flash creatures maindeck. Double Karakas is pretty miserable. It's not as if the point of running them is to recur them with Karakas; the Cliques fill holes in the deck's gameplan against combo decks so that you don't concede every combo matchup where you don't hit Counter-Top early. Ponders are much better against the Delver decks, but when the flash creatures are good, they're great.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Cipher
Strange that you would suggest the flash creatures can't win the game. I'm confused as to how running Ponders over Cliques wins faster.
There's also the style of deck that was played before Shonegger wrote those articles:
That list with the Venser either in the board, or gone altogether. Joe doubled-down on Venser/Clique after people started running 4 Ponder, but a lot of people are having success with just a few flash creatures maindeck. Double Karakas is pretty miserable. It's not as if the point of running them is to recur them with Karakas; the Cliques fill holes in the deck's gameplan against combo decks so that you don't concede every combo matchup where you don't hit Counter-Top early. Ponders are much better against the Delver decks, but when the flash creatures are good, they're great.
There are different concepts covered in your couple paragraphs, I feel they're all mixed in.
It's not about Ponder vs Clique, it's Snapcaster vs Clique. They are about deck construction philosophy, they don't necessarily attribute to whichever wins faster.
When you pick a Miracles build, typically you have to decide which creature do you value more, Snapcaster vs Clique in the pre-Dig/TC era. Once you value Snapcaster more, it's only natural and logical to compliment Snapcaster with Ponder. All your subsequent card choices are pretty much leaning toward spell, since you center around Snap.
When you value Clique more, now you are tempted to run 2nd Karakas and MD Venser. Yes, some people including me shy away from doing that. I myself consider that too showy no substance. Yes, Double Karakas can be miserable but it's pretty amazing in reanimator/sneak and show MU.
If you watch legend miracles in action, often it's trying to stabilize by blocking opponent's creature with a Legendary creature, bounce it using Karakas before combat damage. This is not advancing board state. Also, how many times do you Clique trigger targeting yourself because you want to find more land? The Legend build is all about that.
Flash creatures always can win games, and most miracles builds except reid duke run them regardless which versions. The question is what kind of flash creatures, if any, how many. Once you've decided, rest might just fall into places by themselves.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Even Joe runs 2 Snapcasters; it's the best piece of filler the deck has. You don't have to choose between that and Clique. Bouncing creatures with Karakas is something that just happens, albeit more when you have 2 copies. It's not as if it's the deck's gameplan.
If you want to use Joe's list as an example, the main difference between versions is Ponders in one and Clique/Venser in the other:
http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=9615&d=255241&f=LE
Adding Ponder to the core cards of the deck gives more consistency to the payoff cards (Counterbalance/Terminus) and helps you develop your mana. This makes the deck better in matchups where the core package is effective. Adding Vendilion Clique and possibly Venser gives you a secondary angle of attack for when the engine is either ineffective or offline. Hoping you spike enough Counterbalances against Storm or Show and Tell decks, for example, isn't high probability. I was surprised to see so many people saying that Omnitell was a terrible matchup, but after a while I realized that they basically have to counterbalance lock them or auto-lose. Clique is completely broken against decks like this or Storm, and instead of just a playset of Counterbalance as relevant cards you've got nearly a second playset of cards that can put the game away. There's also Shardless and other random matchups where Cliques have a lot of value.
That's how I see it, anyway. I think people play Ponder against the dominant Delver decks, realize how good it is, and then make sweeping assumptions about the card's power level. This is an already favored matchup that gets better, at the cost of the disadvantaged matchups. Maybe that's why Joe magically is able to win matches with his "unplayable" deck?
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Thanks everyone. This is a wonderful discussion with great information.
Yes im using ponders.
So for sideboard it sounds like this is how it should be
3x REB effects
2x Rest in Peace
2x Blood Moon
2x Flusterstorm
2x Vendilion Clique
2x Monestary Mentor
1x Containment Priest
1x Keranos, God of Storms
Sounds about right? Or should Mentors be moved to main to make room for Pithing Needle/Meddling Mage?
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Son Alexander
Thanks everyone. This is a wonderful discussion with great information.
Yes im using ponders.
So for sideboard it sounds like this is how it should be
3x REB effects
2x Rest in Peace
2x Blood Moon
2x Flusterstorm
2x Vendilion Clique
2x Monestary Mentor
1x Containment Priest
1x Keranos, God of Storms
Sounds about right? Or should Mentors be moved to main to make room for Pithing Needle/Meddling Mage?
I would want to find room for Wear//Tear (/Disenchant, depending on 2/3 volcanic Island) as well as Engineered Explosives.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Quasim0ff
I would want to find room for Wear//Tear (/Disenchant, depending on 2/3 volcanic Island) as well as Engineered Explosives.
I agree. I want 2 wear tear. I hate silver bullets honestly. So I'm a "2 of" kind of guy. The question is. What is ultimately more important. Which is what is racking my brain...
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Son Alexander
I agree. I want 2 wear tear. I hate silver bullets honestly. So I'm a "2 of" kind of guy. The question is. What is ultimately more important. Which is what is racking my brain...
With 4 ponder, 4 brainstorm as well as 4 top, you WILL see most cards in your deck, fairly consistent.
I'm playing 1 Blood Moon as well as 1 Pithing Needle and 1 Explosives over your 2nd blood moon, Containment priest as well as Keraboss.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
This argument strikes me as strange. Risky or not, it's MU dependent. What are the prime cards for CJ? Null rod, Vial, Chalice, TNN, and Liliana. Cast CJ on any of these, except against Merfolk, CJ will probably resolve. Decks running these cards are not combo deck, most of time, not sure what risk is there. I'm sure the Europeans would agree with you on Snapcaster, but... I personally dislike relying on it too much. I am actually considering running More CJ. Recently there're SO MANY Null rods, so much SDT hate, naturally we cannot rely on EE to take care of problematic permanent in this case.
Against liliana and sylvan why should it resolve? As i said vs chalice and vial im willing to gamble the fow or entreat game1. You might not draw it in time even if you play it anyway, for me its not worth its general clunkyness. The risk of tapping out depends on the context. They might not straight up win like a combo deck, but you can fall behind in a variety of ways.
Null rod is a sb card, i bring in disenchant and wear which are a billion times better than council's for that job. I dont think ee should be played now that rod is popular anyway.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ocean
Against liliana and sylvan why should it resolve? As i said vs chalice and vial im willing to gamble the fow or entreat game1. You might not draw it in time even if you play it anyway, for me its not worth its general clunkyness. The risk of tapping out depends on the context. They might not straight up win like a combo deck, but you can fall behind in a variety of ways.
Null rod is a sb card, i bring in disenchant and wear which are a billion times better than council's for that job. I dont think ee should be played now that rod is popular anyway.
CJ is a good 1-of for those games that have gone to a stalemate where you just need to get rid of that one pesky permanent (often not something that can be Disenchanted away) and then you can win. It's not for a turn 3 removal, so tapping out for it should never happen. When I cast it, it is moderate to high impact. It prevents Batterskull from becoming a recurring problem, it kills opposing Jaces, gets rid of TNN if you're low on Terminus, is hard to counter off of CB so it can deal rather well in the mirror, etc.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Finally a nice discussion about the flash creatures of the deck.
I'm a big fan of the Legend mechanic, especially with Venser. I'm also totally aware of the power of Ponder to increase regularity and velocity so i think the best approach is a mix of both decks. I won't go into details why i think V. Clique and Venser are amazing because i don't have much time right now but we can discuss that next time.
This weekend will be the French National Cup. I'm expecting a lot of Miracles, BUG Shardless and Delver deck (Temur and Sultai) and a few Sneak and Show, Storm and Death and Taxes, with some Jund and Infect. In this field i believe the Legend version is better than the 4-Ponder version, better against the mirror, BUG Shardless, Sneak and Show and DnT. Here is the version i'm planning to play. Feel free to critic it.
1 Mountain
1 Plains
1 Volcanic Island
2 Arid Mesa
2 Karakas
3 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
4 Island
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendilion Clique
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Counterbalance
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Counterspell
3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
2 Entreat the Angels
2 Ponder
4 Terminus
SB: 1 Wear / Tear
SB: 1 Containment Priest
SB: 1 Cavern of Souls
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Rest in Peace
SB: 2 Monastery Mentor
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Venser, Shaper Savant
SB: 1 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 Pyroblast
SB: 1 Swords to Plowshares
SB: 1 Counterbalance
And a not totally finished sideboard guide:
Sneak and Show:
+ Priest, Venser, Needle, 2 Flusterstorm, 1 CB, 2 REB, 1 Cavern
- 1 Plains, 3 StP, 4 Terminus, 1 Entreat
BUG Shardless:
+ 2 Mentor, 1 Venser, 2 REB, 1 Wear Tear, 1 Cavern, 1 StP
- 3 CB, 4 FoW, 1 V. Clique/Tundra
Miracles:
+ 2 Mentor, Venser, CB, 2 REB, Cavern
- Plains, 2 Terminus, 3 StP, 1 Entreat
RUG ********:
+ 2 Mentor, 2 RiP, 1 CB, 2 Flusterstorm, 2 REB, 1 StP, 1 Cavern
- Venser, 4 FoW, 2 CS, 2 Jace, 1 SCM, 1 Entreat
Storm:
+ 1 Venser, 2 RiP, 1 CB, 2 Fluster, 2 REB
- Plains, 3 StP, 1 Terminus, 2 Jace, 1 Entreat
Elf:
+1 CB, 2 Mentor, 1 Priest, 1 StP, 1 Wear/Tear, 1 Flusterstorm
- 2 Jace, 2 Clique, 2 REB, 1 Venser
DnT:
+2 Mentor, 1 Priest, 1 Venser, 1 Needle, 1 Wear/Tear, 1 StP, 1 Cavern
- 3 CB, 2 REB, 2 FoW, 1 CS
BUG Delver:
+2 Mentor, Venser, 2 RiP, 1 Wear/Tear, 1 StP, 1 REB, 1 Cavern
- 4 FoW, 3 CB, 2 SCM
I'm a strong believer of the Mountain, since i like to able to cast my REB against Delver decks. MD REB expecting Mirror, BUG Shardless and Delver as the most played deck is a no brainer for me. I'm not totally confident with only 1 Plains but so far (GP Lille and 10h of testing) it wasn't a problem. I don't like playing 4 CB MD, espacially now that there are more deck where it's very bad, and even worse in multiple (BUG, Jund, DnT). I believe 4 Terminus/3 StP is better than the contrary.
Thank you if you give me some comments.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
I have a question regarding your SBing vs Miracles: Do you still board out removal as aggressive if you are playing vs the current Cadei List (2 Mentors MD), with just 2 Terminus as safety net?
Also, my guess for SBing vs Lands:
Out: 4 Terminus 1 REB 1 Pyro 2 Entreat
In: 1 Stp 1 CB 2 RIP 1 Needle 1 Wear/Tear ??
Those are the cards I would definitely bring. I feel Entreat is too bad, but is Mentor good enough (I assume so)? How about the Venser from the SB? Do you bring in Caverns to increase your Landcount vs Port/Wasteland? (also works under Choke).
I'm playing a big tournament next week, and I'm not sure 4 Ponder Miracles is where I want to be. Many thanks for the input!
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
One of the things I've found while running the Ponderless version is you tend to get stuck for 1 drops occasionally. Because you don't run 4 ponders you need to up your land count to about 23 to ensure drops. While this helps against Wasteland decks. You tend to start topping into 3 land. This was discovered after several hours/days of testing.
While im not a huge fan of ponder. I do see the need for it. Ponder seems to be a necessary evil.
Not running ponders also makes finding silver bullets from your sideboard more difficult.
As a personal taste, i feel all versions of Miracles have merit and i have personally tasted all versions extensively over the last couple months planning for GP Seattle. This was probably a double edged sword because ive found it difficult to settle on a version because each deck is good against different things in the meta. Its also why sideboarding is so difficult because the board is adopted to which version you choose.
My brain hurts...
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Son Alexander
One of the things I've found while running the Ponderless version is you tend to get stuck for 1 drops occasionally. Because you don't run 4 ponders you need to up your land count to about 23 to ensure drops. While this helps against Wasteland decks. You tend to start topping into 3 land. This was discovered after several hours/days of testing.
While im not a huge fan of ponder. I do see the need for it. Ponder seems to be a necessary evil.
So you ran enough games to notice what has to be a <5% decrease in mana consistency, and added two more lands to your deck. Then you played enough games to notice the even smaller increased occurrence of 3-land Top activations.
I think it's best to present opinion as opinion.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
For you info. Joe has played 22 lands without ponder and have put up good results this year, this was when Dig was legal. Not sure if it matters tho. Joe also played another land in SB, but I think this was due to the mountain main, and not because of being scared for missing lands. So no need to actually make 23 lands if you want other things.
However, I agree with just adding some ponder and call it a day is better.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Cipher
So you ran enough games to notice what has to be a <5% decrease in mana consistency, and added two more lands to your deck. Then you played enough games to notice the even smaller increased occurrence of 3-land Top activations.
I think it's best to present opinion as opinion.
You are correct. This is based solely off my opinion and personal experience while play testing. I test miracles for hours each night using tappedout.net to build meta decks and play against myself to see how each formula stands up to each deck in the format. I meant no offense while relaying my view.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Philipp2293
I have a question regarding your SBing vs Miracles: Do you still board out removal as aggressive if you are playing vs the current Cadei List (2 Mentors MD), with just 2 Terminus as safety net?
People on here will tell you otherwise, but I think 2 Terminus as a safety net is the way to go. You should expect to see more creatures post-board, so there's no reason whatsoever to take out all 4 board wipes, especially when the creature(s) will likely be Mentors. All 3-4 Swords are safe coming out, but I like to keep at least 1 just in case. You never know, they might bring in some big fatty.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Philipp2293: Yes, i don't like to have many removals against Miracles after board. Against a list with 2 Mentor, i think 2 Terminus, 0 StP is perfect. If you know your opponent plays 4 Mentors, keep 3 or 4 Terminus. I don't like StP because all their creatures are blue so REBs do the jobs and you can also trade with your creatures. StP sucks agaisnt Mentor seems any token is a must-answer threat and they will certainly have one or two tokens if they resolve a Mentor.
More more thing about sideboarded games against Miracles, Cavern of Souls with V. Clique and Venser (and 2 Karakas) is probably the most powerful thing you can do and i'm not sure people realize that.
To be honest, i didn't test at all versus Lands so i will probably say bullshit but i would def. bring in the 2nd Venser and the two Mentors. I feel like Entreat is still good enough not to board them out. I would remove 2 REBs, 2 SCM for sure then some removals. With 2 Karakas, it's easier to handle their Legenday tokens but i don't know how many removals is needed. Are you sure StP is better than Terminus ? +20 life really decreased your clock and might give them the turns they need to recover (not sure about that). Adding a 23th also seems good here, depending if you don't have a better card to play in post-sideboarded 60 cards.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Shaka1333
Philipp2293: Yes, i don't like to have many removals against Miracles after board. Against a list with 2 Mentor, i think 2 Terminus, 0 StP is perfect. If you know your opponent plays 4 Mentors, keep 3 or 4 Terminus. I don't like StP because all their creatures are blue so REBs do the jobs and you can also trade with your creatures. StP sucks agaisnt Mentor seems any token is a must-answer threat and they will certainly have one or two tokens if they resolve a Mentor.
More more thing about sideboarded games against Miracles, Cavern of Souls with V. Clique and Venser (and 2 Karakas) is probably the most powerful thing you can do and i'm not sure people realize that.
To be honest, i didn't test at all versus Lands so i will probably say bullshit but i would def. bring in the 2nd Venser and the two Mentors. I feel like Entreat is still good enough not to board them out. I would remove 2 REBs, 2 SCM for sure then some removals. With 2 Karakas, it's easier to handle their Legenday tokens but i don't know how many removals is needed. Are you sure StP is better than Terminus ? +20 life really decreased your clock and might give them the turns they need to recover (not sure about that). Adding a 23th also seems good here, depending if you don't have a better card to play in post-sideboarded 60 cards.
Swords is way better than terminus, I've had a much easier time beating lands by ulting jace than trying to beat them down and hold terminus for lage. The gameplan for beating lands is 1. Secure a white mana source 2. Establish CB lock and shutdown loam and fire 3. Jace em out.
