I think the question is 'if not that then what?' Mystic Crusader is the only thing I could see being better - it can reliably attack, but it's harder to turn on threshold with Mono-W.
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I think the question is 'if not that then what?' Mystic Crusader is the only thing I could see being better - it can reliably attack, but it's harder to turn on threshold with Mono-W.
What do you think of running a 1/1 Crusader/Paladin En-Vec split? I feel like ProR/ProB could be reasonable. Does not die to Push/Bolt and can block Angler for days.Quote:
Originally Posted by Medea_
That's what I'm trying to figure out. The answer might be that nothing is better. Mystic Crusader seems okay, but when you add the fact that you'll be siding in RiP in many of those matchups, it feels mediocre. It's also not a human for Cavern, for what that's worth. I'll keep testing things in the flex slots as I do my leagues. Mystic Crusader, Aerial Responder, and Paladin En-Vec are the next couple of things I'm going to toy around with. I don't think any of them are going to be great, but I'd be happy to be proven wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by iatee
It's also possible that the answer ends up being going back to an Avenger/Crusader heavy list and trying to close out the games quickly instead of dragging the games on with something that they can't kill.
I don't think Mystic Crusader is very good. It's not just bad with Rest in Peace - it's bad against any Deathrite Shaman deck. There is a reason why Nimble Mongoose isn't played anymore.
I'm currently testing a toolbox based human deck and it's great to have the option of having 1 Fiendslayer Paladin to search out, not just for the Grixis Delver/Control but against any deck dedicated to red removals like UR delver, Burn, Lands, etc. Of course the card isn't good against Angler or Pyromancer, but choosing between Paladin and Miran comes down to boardstate. This deck struggles with Pyromancer no matter what cards you play, until you start siding in things like Orzhov Pontiff and Holy Light.
Grixis Delver plays 4 bolt and 1-2 forked bolt, so if you really need a threat to stick, Paladin may be the better option. Against Czech Pile, Miran Crusader is the better card most of the time due to their lack of pure red removal spells. Take note that if any of these builds play Snapcaster Mage, you should consider the higher probability of Miran Crusader dying.
Story time. Decklist included at the end, criticisms for its construct very appreciated.
K2, my youngest 13yo son, attended a Sunday national side event of legacy that gives out a Underground Sea as top prize. This is a big deal in our small country as getting something like this sent in would incur taxes and thus more expensive. Because it's based here on our small hometown and most of the legacy players in the bigger cities usually don't take a flight down just for this, the attendance was low at 15 players but still 5 towns represented. For time consideration purposes it was left at 4 rounds but capped to top 4 elimination.
Very unfortunately due to work and related incidents I could not join him with omnishow to work towards the top as a team, so the mother fetched him and had to hit the brakes real hard at one stage on the way there, which resulted in a box tumbling forward from some part of the car.
[conversation in car]
Mum: "What's the sound? Can you find it?"
K2: (morning grumpiness)
Mum: "Do it already, cmon"
K2: "found it. purple box. dad must've left it there"
Mum: "ok bring it along"
K2: (grumbles)
Mum: "Do it! Just in case! And what's inside?"
K2: (looks inside, and quitely closes it and puts it in bag)
Turned out I accidentally left it there the day before, and it contained all the DnT support cards for both legacy and modern. So he was happy to bring it along after all.
[online chat]
Me: !@#!@%$!@$etcetc!@#!@$@! really angry about work and sorry I can't join you blah blah to compete for this as a blah blah blah
K2: Dad. The deck is wrong.
Me: What do you mean? It's the same list you used in GP Vegas 17!
K2: Add one more horizon
Me: ?!?! Are you sure? You had one in vegas, and I thought 2 was a lot. You'll lose quite a few points of life with 3?
K2: Meh. +1 Eigango
Me: 7 plains?! Blood moon against you?
K2: Don't want THC. Remove 1 Flickerwisp
Me: You putting sanctum?
K2: 4 mirrans, 3 serras
Me: Holy are you setting up a prison or are you being really aggro
K2: brb. Updating decklists.
[Game Report]
I got this really late last night and he was tired and had a headache and could not remember much. Because I wasn't there and there were no friendlies with him this is all I got:
R1: Dredge #1. Not quite a good player with it.
G1: Crushed him (newbie)
G2: He went off on turn 2
G3: tie (time, he played slow all the way)
(by this point K2 was really angry cuz round 1 tie due to time was due to opponent inexperience)
R2: BUG
G1: no FoW, toxic deluge, just attacked aggressively, mirran crusader + sword
G2: he controlled the board right from the start and won
G3: ate opponent for breakfast. sanctum prelate on 2 stopped abrupt decay, grindy but aggro'ed in
K2: "Fought BUG"
Me: "Oh? Chomp?"
K2: "Nomnomnomnomnom. Very close games though" (we have this running joke: he's always enjoyed winning against BUG. 100% match wins)
Me: "still. afternoon snack"
K2: "There's another DnT. 2 dredge. 1 Maverick. 1 Blade control. But a few were incomplete decks. Blade control had rattlechains and mausoleum wanderer. 1 of the dredge is playing amalgams, interesting."
K2: "OMG! Dredge #1 tied again!"
R3: POX.
G1: crushed opponent with superior board state
G2: opponent controlled right from the start
G3: hand had 1 plains, 1 aether vial, 5 threats. First 6 turns yielded no land, vial ticked up to 3 and stayed, and crew went off. Sanctum prelate to 1 to prevent pithing needle against vial which kept spitting out threats, and won.
R4: dredge #2
Risky ID: if dredge #1 wins, it's tiebreakers; decided not to play because he believed dredge #2 was a bad MU. Tested 2 games, lost 0-2
K2: "We're still waiting to hear who's #4"
Me: "Why the wait?"
K2: "Dredge #1 won the last 2 matches and got 8 points like me"
Me: "They don't have reporter so everything is on paper and therefore tiebreakers need calculators."
K2: (22 minutes later) "gtg I'm 4."
R5: dredge #2 same guy in R4
G1: opponent was landless, didn't take off in time. Mirran and gang went in fast.
G2: he mulls to 4, so was behind by at least 4 turns and the white guys went in fast.
R6: Lands. Don't have decklist but choose any Tier 1 deck out there with a tabernacle.
G1: exiled/bounced avatar 6 times with swords and flicker wisp and karakas etc; wastelands was never drawn; opponent could not win with 6 cards left in deck. Picked up library, look through cards there, and scooped. 1 hour 15 minute game.
G2: almost died to tireless tracker and ate avenger, mom with jitte and its counters; 3 mazes of ith. Avatar, sword, Avatar, exile, meanwhile his creatures chewed 5-8 life at a time, flicker one ith away just to squeeze more than 8 damage at one stage. RiP was in play ultimately and opponent ran out of wincons, and scoops. 45 minute game. Was close as K2 had only 5 cards in library but board state was enough to finish opponent off, and walks home with a trophy and underground sea.
Post game:
K2: "Tabernacle is soooooo OP. Had to pay so much. Also, the Mystic Crusader was useless"
Me: "Ok thanks for experimenting. Sorry last night we had no time to customize together"
K2: "Judges for finals noted 6 times the avatar was plowed"
Me: "Did you just chew away more than 120 points of damage for the finals?"
K2: "It happens. Online I played against lands, and it went for 45 minutes. Didn't lose, but we left the game as it took too long"
Me: "I looked him up. He's a serious player from a much bigger town so he's a much more experienced player"
K2: "He got 1 warning. And misplayed once"
Mum: "The stars aligned. (1) First, you needed to accidentally leave the box in the car. (2) I nearly had to get into an accident. (3) The box had to tumble out. (4) He had to look at the contents after being pushed. (5) Close tie breakers to top 4 (6) Luck on his side R5 opponent didn't have a good hand as dredge"
Spectator LGS good player: "aw mate it was a fully sick match. he's probably told you all about it but he played professionally."
Me: "You know that the thesource is talking about 22 lands for 27 creatures, right? Lots of discussion, reasons, results, track records, experiences...."
K2: "OMG no....disgree...golden rule for DnT modern and legacy is 23 lands..."
[Mainboard]
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Mother of Runes
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Mirran Crusader
2 Flickerwisp
3 Serra Avenger
2 Recruiter of the Guard
2 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Palace Jailer
4 Aether Vial
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Cavern of Souls
3 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
3 Karakas
3 Horizon Canopy
1 Eiganjo castle
7 Plains
[Sideboard]
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Faerie Macabre
2 Rest in Peace
1 Manriki-Gusari
2 Council's Judgment
2 Containment Priest
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Sanctum Prelate
1 Mystic Crusader
Thanks for the read.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Medea_
Errata'd to human actually.
Neat! That's a good one to get people with on paper...Quote:
Originally Posted by iatee
If I understand correctly, Ixalan rules changes (legendary planeswalkers) now allow us to bounce animated Gideons with Karakas, right?
Certainly reads that way, I'm more interested in what decks will come up and use the fact that you can now have different versions of the same planeswalker in play at the same time (eg: Liliana of the Veil and Liliana the Last Hope)Quote:
Originally Posted by mrjumbo03
Except that Karakas was long ago errata'd to only bounce legendary creatures.Quote:
Originally Posted by J ♥ 5
It may allow us to bounce an ANIMATED Gideon, which will become a creature and now have the legendary supertype.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bosque
@rostov
Great post. Congrats to your son.
Not sure I would have the hutzpah to play that main list, but it certainly looks aggressive.
@everyone
What is the state of DnT builds in your opinion?
It seems like the options are WW and RW at the larger level, but within WW there is some division over aggression vs control vs splitting the middle (this is not a new dilemma per se, but it seems to be coming up again, so something in the meta is sparking it, right?)
The core has not, AFAIK, changed:
22 lands
4 Wasteland
4 Port
3 Karakas
7 Plains
4 additional (plains, Canopies, Caverns, man lands, etc.)
29 Spells
4 thalia
4 SfM
4 Mom
4 StP
4 Aether Vial
2 Flickerwisp (I am tempted to say 3, but i can't imagine not running 4)
2 Recruiter of the Guard (a new staple?)
2 Phyrexian Revoker (2 seems to the be the minimum)
1 Jitte
1 Batterskull
1 SFI
That's 51 fixed slots and 9 available slots 9/0 or 8/1 on spells/lands, depending.
rostov's son K2 ran a very aggro list with 7 Serra/Crusaders and a Palace Jailer.
phyrexianProvoker on MTGSalvation ran a very control-heavy list with 1 Aven Mindcensor, 1 Banisher Priest, +2 Flickerwisp, 1 Mirran Crusader, 1 Sanctum Prelate, 1 Spirit of the Labyrinth, 1 Vryn Wingmare, 1 Path to Exile for his 9 spells and his 4 added lands, 1 Ghost Quarter, 1 Mishra's Factory, +2 Plains.
Medea_'s list falls in between.
Is it metagame broadly, or is this just about what you expect to see locally vs. the big event broad meta? Thoughts?
My list is basically the stock list thats pretty close to what Medea run's with -3 Plains, +3 Flagstones of Trokair maindeck and -2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar -2 Surgical Extraction +2 Cataclysm +1 Grafdiggers Cage +1 Sanctum Prelate sideboard. I arrived at the maindeck after tinkering around with the slots that I do not consider set in stone, such as the last Flickerwisp, the Crusaders, the Avengers and the last Revoker I arrived at the stock list independently. I think that if you completely optimize the deck for the general metagame right now, thats the 60 that I believe are optimal. The changes people make to make the deck better in specific matchups tend to make the deck lose more against other decks than I am comfortable with in my opinion. I would rather have the deck be close against everything than to polarize my matchups. I value that type of consistency a lot.Quote:
Originally Posted by redtwister
That being said, if I'm running at a small local event where I know a good number of the people who are showing up, I'll run something more targeted, I.E. with a second Sanctum Prelate maindeck if I'm expecting a lot of combo, or 6 Graveyard hate spells if I'm expecting a bunch of storm and reanimator, or 3 Crusaders maindeck if I'm expecting BUG and Czech pile. In a less open field you can definitely capitalize on a narrower metagame by correctly predicting what is going to be there and applying pressure in the correct spots.
Off topic, but I swear Medea was throwing shade at me for running masterpiece Vial's. Whats the general consensus on which Vial art to run? I love my brownish border Vial's personally!
Right, I somehow only read the Liliana part and filled in the blanks, whoops. Of course yes it does the Gideon bouncing if he's a creature.Quote:
Originally Posted by Medea_
You aren't wrong. The art isn't bad, but the original Vial art has a special place in my heart. I have MM ones on MTGO because I optimized my cart and that's what happened; that's also how I got those terrible Masterpiece Containment Priests. Ick.Quote:
Originally Posted by WashableWater1
@redtwister
I think the WW shell is pretty stable, at least as stable as it has ever been. Like always, there's the debate about the last couple of flex slots, but things are largely static at this point. A few of us have been experimenting in the last couple of slots, but we keep coming back to the same things.
Can someone knowledgeable talk briefly about why only the Wr lists consider playing Chalice of the Void? For example, it seems to me that the change from 4 StP, 4 Plains, 2-3 Flex Slots to 4 Chalice, 4 Cavern, 2-3 Blessed Alliance could happen even in the WW list. Has anyone tried it? Or is there some convincing theoretical reason that the WW list couldn't make the shift to Chalice?
Most lists that play chalice are doing a colorless version, with maybe dishing out Thalia HC with Ancient Tomb or playing Eldrazi stompy.Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisCunningham
Chalice is a lot better if you can combine it with cavern of souls and ancient tomb. I think a turn 1-2 card that greatly strengthens all the bad match-ups, most combo decks, any deck with cantrips/removals, etc. are worth playing but most people here are against the idea. Chalice is good not only in the early game but also late game at x=2 and x=3, while you are able to cast your spells through aether vial or cavern of souls (though you need a human dedicated build). The decks you'll miss having StP in are the non-elves creature based match-ups but a resolved chalice crushes many of these decks.
So the Blessed Alliance monstrosity was my brew. I think I've got at least one version of that up on the decklists tab of my site; if it isn't, you can find a version in SCG's database from some team event or another in Roanoke.Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisCunningham
It was an offshoot of a deck that Bahra was playing at the time, which had Dismember or no removal in the BA slot instead. I was worried about the combination of Ancient Tomb and Dismember being too hard on the life total, which is why I dropped it. It had the upside of being better against TNN and Marit Lage, but worse against DRS and Young Pyromancer. Maxing out on Cavern to push cards through Chalice made the splash close to free. It's not that it couldn't be a monowhite deck, it's just that there was little cost to not splashing given the direction things were going. At the time, Elves was the expected top dog, so the splash cards and Chalice combined actually made for a positive Elves matchup, a real rarity for a D&T deck.
This was separate from an Ancient Tomb D&T deck Enevoldson was working on at the time. He had some stuff like Displacer and THC in the main. His Chalices were in the board He's Scaabs on MTGO, so you can probably find the list pretty easily.
A question for everyone. I have 5 cards to board in versus True-Name Grixis Delver which is getting more popular playing 2 True-Name and 2 Gurmag. They are 2 Judgment, 2 Path, and 1 more Sanctum Prelate in addition to the one main. Using Medea's main deck as a guide, what 5 cards do you board out? I worry I may not be boarding correctly and want others thoughts on the matter. I'll hold off on what I board out because I wanna hear others opinions without any influence of how I already board.
My plan is 3 Revoker 1 Mirran Crusader. If I want to bring in the second Prelate, I'd drop the second Crusader. I don't usually bring it in.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marungo