[Deck] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)

I played a 66 man tourney this weekend with a similar list to linux. But didn't have mox diamonds so i used IGG like jamie parke in chicago.

2 [EX] City of Traitors
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [IN] Island (1)
2 [A] Swamp (1)
2 [b] Underground Sea
4 [ON] Flooded Strand

// Spells
2 [ALA] Ad Nauseam
4 [b] Dark Ritual
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
4 [MI] Mystical Tutor
4 [FUT] Pact of Negation
4 [US] Duress
1 [LRW] Thoughtseize
4 [TO] Cabal Ritual
4 [LRW] Ponder
2 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
2 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [MM] Brainstorm
1 [ONS] Chain of vapor

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [MIR] Lion's Eye Diamond
SB: 3 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
SB: 4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
SB: 1 [DS] Echoing Truth
SB: 1 [TSP] Wipe Away
SB: 2 [FUT] Slaughter Pact

Round 1: GWB Survival
Game 1: After some discard i resolve ANT and win.
Game 2: He had a scary board of extirpate, chant, teeg and maindeck discard. I lose game 2 due to combination of them.
Game 3 he "only" gets discard and i get brainstorm, then duress his chant then win the next turn, phew.

Round 2: Some deadguy brew.
Game 1: After i have used delta for UG sea and used brainstorm and duress, he therapies me for....... sinkhole :) he didn't get much disrupt then I win.
Game 2: In with LED-package. I mull into a pretty random hand with turn 1 IGG. Which I use to set me upp with 4 mana in play thanks to chrome mox and city of traitor which is a good topdeck mode for me, and I leave him with lands and a ritual, he topdecks hypnotic which makes my topdeck mode suck. I lose.
Game 3: Don't remember that much, expect that it went like it should, brainstorm when he duresses and so on. I win.

Round 3: Also some deadguy with discard, confidant, mother of runes
Game 1: I duress his thoughtseize then win 2 turns later when is at 19 and 2 jittecounters, i just make it to 12 storm count.
Game 2: LED-package. about turn 3 i get a quite nasty AN with IGG and AN that deals me 9, but i have 0-mana artifacts to barely make it.

Round 4: GWB Rock
Game 1: I duress and see 2 StP, sakura-tribe elder and other nonimportant stuff. Next turn i resolve AN with 17 life, I die.
Game 2: LED-package and Confidants. I mull and get a turn 1 confidant via chrome mox. He plays swamp, funeral charm on bob.... i was like..... ? Was it the nastiest tech ever, is he a magic-god? Or did i just suffer the most random shit ever? I guess I will die with this question still unanswered. I topdeck brainstorm to see mystical, ritual. Which gives me a win a couple of turns later. But he thoughtseizes my tendrils then extirpates it. Hurray.

Round 5: Loam-Geddon-Terravore something.
Game 1: I win the die roll. Turn 1 rit-rit-AN. I win.
Game 2: I mull into a turn 1 win with LED-Inf tutor, ritual and some other stuff. I was afraid of chalice from him as it would make me scoop. But he played savannah -> Llanowar elves. I win on my first turn again.

Round 6: Painter-Grindstone with maindeck red blasts.
Game 1: I mull to 5 but somehow manages to win when I have 2 lands in play and a lotus petal and a mysical tutor, PoN, ritual, land on hand. He has left a red mana open the entire game. So if i mystical on his end step i can't protect it with PoN, so I do it on my upkeep via lotus petal, he tries to blast it, I PoN it and fetch AN to draw it then play it and Win. Phew.
Game 2: I set it up to play AN with PoN protection, he tries to FoW my AN, but i PoN it, I have 18 life.

.. This is where the whole tournament takes a nasty turn. This is a 7-round tourney, I have 4-1 in matches and leads round 6 with 1-0 in games and resolve AN with 18 lives to spare. I should be 5-1 and draw in to top8 right? right?! I fizzle.

Game 3: I mull into a nonland hand with petal, ponder, brainstorm, sensei. Mull to 5 or break petal to find a land? I keep and brainstorm via petal, no land, only a chrome mox which i imprint and then play sensei. He has boarded in goyfs. And I resolve AN when I'm at 4. Karma gods, do me good? No.

4-2 I still can win the last round to top8.

Game 7: Mono-U fish with stifle, daze, FoW, spellstutter sprite and vendillion clique. sigh..
Game 1: He beats with merfolk until im at 10. I play duress to take his only relevant spell and see a cursecather. I pass the turn and he doesn't play it? Hmm. Did he draw stifle or FoW as cursecather was his only blue card in hand, I play AN, he FoWs, I PoN it. 10 life is not enough.
Game 2: He has 3 cursecathers in play. I duress his only relevant spell. I resolve AN at 14 life, first card i flip is AN...... then his Nether Void in play is to much for my other spells. I lose.

Summary:
PoN is a f**king house. But come with a SB that can replace it as it is a blank card in some matchups. I expected a lot of blue, but got paired with GWB/GB/BW deadguys, expect for one amazing fizzle at 18, it was a good matchup.

Didn't face a single CB all day. Hmm? So i didn't experience what linux did. My chain of vapor didn't do anything anyway the entire day. Expect only dealing me 1 when flipping it with AN.

Why did i play IGG...? :( It bolted me for 4 atleast 3 or 4 times during the day, should've been a mox diamond. It only helped me once after SB when i got the led-package, of course.

Now I understand why they play angel's grace. It's not a win-more card. it's a card that you need when fighting blue beats backed up with FoWs, dazes and stifles. You can wait until you are low on life, then resolve AN with help from duress and PoN then grace it to flip the deck and win. They still have a lot of dead cards against you. I duressed the fish player and he had nothing. Expect for beats and ofcourse an occasional counter that i took with duress. But since you can't all-in-AN you take too much damage from beats.

And as always, I need a better board. Don't think the led-package is good enough. To much boarding-in-boarding-out cards that makes it random.

This deck.... with the right build and right pilot. Man, it's good.

All-in all i'm pleased with 4-3. and so close to top 8 in round 6. But i guess this deck comes with a heavy price in AN. as it is I win or I-shit-on-you.

Might Conflagrate be good in this deck?

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Originally Posted by Fistandantilus

Might Conflagrate be good in this deck?

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Short answer: no.
Middle-sized version: you will have enough cards for it nowhere near often enough, let alone mana. Storm is awesome, why replace it with something that's more conditional? The only "problem" with Tendrils in a deck like this is that it's not even more busted, i.e. cheaper.

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Originally Posted by Noman Peopled

Short answer: no.
Middle-sized version: you will have enough cards for it nowhere near often enough, let alone mana. Storm is awesome, why replace it with something that's more conditional? The only "problem" with Tendrils in a deck like this is that it's not even more busted, i.e. cheaper.

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Well, it only costs RR when flashed back, and that shouldn't be too much of a problem. I've often had a LOT of cards in hand after casting AdN. The problem with Tendrils is that it hurts to draw two of them off of an AdN, and costs 4 mana compared to Conflagrate's 2 (flashed back). Too often, I don't draw Tendrils when I need to, because I can only have so many in the deck, because it hurts too much when drawn off of an AdN.

Since Conflagrate only causes 1 life loss when drawn with AdN, might it not be worth it to play it alongside Tendrils (EDIT: or alongside Grapeshot)?

EDIT: Additionally, Conflagrate's ability to discard cards provides another way to get Hellbent for IT.

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Originally Posted by Fistandantilus

Well, it only costs RR when flashed back, and that shouldn't be too much of a problem. I've often had a LOT of cards in hand after casting AdN.

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If you have 20+ cards consistently after going off, go for it. You can't use LED to put Conflagrate in your graveyard or pay for it post-combo though since you'll have no cards left.

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Since Conflagrate only causes 1 life loss when drawn with AdN, might it not be worth it to play it alongside Tendrils (EDIT: or alongside Grapeshot)?

EDIT: Additionally, Conflagrate's ability to discard cards provides another way to get Hellbent for IT.

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Personally, I can't always reach a storm count of 19 for Grapeshot so I use Tendrils anyway. (Obviously this is different for Doomsday variants.)
Getting hellbent is only ever an issue if you have too many lands or too many AdNs/IGGs/win conditions and no LED. That's a fair amount of time, admittedly, but ID is also decent without hellbent. Conflagrate needs RRR in order to support ID in any case.

//edit: if you worry about CMC and are red anyway, try BWish.

If I follow up Conflagrate with Grapeshot (or, as I imagine, a couple of Grapeshots), then I won't need to draw 20+ cards off of AdN. I wasn't thinking of killing with a Conflagrate by itself. Plus, if the highest CMC in my deck (other than a single copy of AdN) is 2, then I probably will be able to draw quite a few more cards off of AdN than I could have if my library had contained Tendrils.

If I play Grapeshot twice, then I'll only cause one point less life loss than if I had played Tendrils once. Very often, that one point won't make much difference, since it's likely that my opponent has cracked a fetchland. If I run 4 copies of Grapeshot in my library, then I probably won't need 19 storm count. Indeed, if I also play Conflagrate, then I'll need even less storm count for Grapeshots after I turn all of those useless post-AdN lands in my hand into damage. I suspect that I could get by with less storm count than I could have if I had played Tendrils instead.

I am imagining a deck with 4 copies of Grapeshot, 4 copies of IT, no Tendrils, only one copy of AdN, and some quantity of Conflagrate. Other than the single AdN, no spell in the library would be more than 2 CMC. I'd be able to draw lots more cards off of the AdN. I'd have a high likelihood of drawing multiple Grapeshots. Even if I did draw just one Grapeshot, if I also drew an IT, then I'd be able to use the IT (even without hellbent) to grab another Grapeshot. Playing multiple Grapeshots would not be uncommon.

Given the choice between Burning Wish for Tendrils or simply playing two copies of Grapeshot (even if it meant playing IT for the second copy of Grapeshot), I think I'd just as soon do the latter.

I think that Tendrils might not be the best storm kill in a deck that relies on AdN. I'm not sure that I've seen a serious discussion about whether Grapeshot might be a better option than Tendrils in an AdN deck. I admit that I could be barking up the wrong tree here, but I think that Grapeshot is worth a second look, especially in decks that also ran Conflagrate. Being able to run 4 copies of the kill and being able to draw more cards is a big advantage, IMHO.

There's also the possibility of using Grapeshot and/or Conflagrate to buy yourself more time if you don't quite get the full kill. You could potentially wipe out some or all of your opponent's creatures and then finish off your opponent on a later turn with another Grapeshot or Conflagrate. When you're running Tendrils, it's pretty much "do it all in one turn" or lose the game, since you're only running one or two copies of a card that can kill, and have no cards that function to remove the opponent's creature threats.

Again, this is just me thinking out loud. I haven't thoroughly tested the idea, but I wanted to put it out there so that other people could mull it over and/or alert me as to drawbacks that I might not have yet seen.

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Originally Posted by Fistandantilus

Again, this is just me thinking out loud. I haven't thoroughly tested the idea, but I wanted to put it out there so that other people could mull it over and/or alert me as to drawbacks that I might not have yet seen.

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First of all, there are certain situations where reaching a storm count of 9-10 is really more easy than , say, reaching one of 18-19-20. For example, in those MUs where you are in a difficult position (most of all, when you're expecting some counters from the opponent), tendrils is way more better: you can just bluff that you're going to drop mana accelerants and the final shot in a tutor, make them waste some spells on certain spells ( for example, on duress/orim's chant), so that you can increase the storm count and cast the lethal tendrils, which of course they didn't expect to. I assure you that i met this kind of situations, and surely a grapeshot instead of tendrils wouldn't have helped me.
Not to mention that tendrils is the perfect card to combine after a Ill-Gotten Gains loop, which helps you reaching easily the fatidical 10-count , and cast the kill spell. Which is better, to have tendrils or grapshot in this situation?

Moreover, i'm assuming that playing several kill spells (3 or 4, for instance ) would compromise too much your possibility to "tutor , and not draw them ": having 4 copies of a card which is stricly useful most of the times onl as a tutor target means that you'll be more likely, sometimes, to draw it, even in 2-ofs : and having 2 kill spells in your hand almost means you have -2 cards in your hand, which you would happily trade away with other. I know there's the brainstorm/top+ shuffle effect engine, but it's not always there, and arguing that you'd like to run 4 grapeshots IMO really subjects you to the aforementioned risks.

I play TES and sometimes, opening with a Tendrils in hand , whereas i'd rather want the missing tutor/accelerant i need for to get the perfect t1/t2 kill, is just plain frustrating. I can't even imagine how this could be even worse in a deck playing less acceleration (which means, more tutors/cantrips) and 4 kill spells: you'd probably waste some resources suffling back /thinning the unwished kill spells on the top of library/in your hand.
I think that the right quantity of a kill spell should be in 1, maximum 2-ofs; higher that that, there's the danger it becomes too much an initial dead card worsening your average opening hand.

Ah, and grapeshot would become a card totally depending on Ad nauseam, therefore, a dead card if you don't manage to resolve AN. Really, i guess the right ways to go for a storm combo deck such as this is the old, good "multiple storm enabler+tendrils kill", be it Ad Nauseam+ IGG or Ad Nauseam + Doomsday ( or all of three). Personally, i dislike running a single one, since Meddling Mage, despites being said he's almost disappeared, it still there in certain decks/sbs, and it's more convenient to bypass him through another storm engine rather than tutoring the bounce spell, bounce it and go Ad Nos.Ah, there are (few) situations when someone could even discard+ extirpate AN. I know it sounds incredibly odd and noobish, but it happens.

This deck is extremely potent in the right hands. And it just needs to play a 5-mana spell to go off, no fancy stuff. A good list, however, won't be totally dependent on AdN to go off. I really like the red lists for this reason. Burning Wish makes the deck extremely reliable; Rite of Flame is explosive (though it may cause some mana problems) and Empty the Warrens is the perfect alternate win when you can't achieve a lethal Tendrils.

4 Polluted Delta
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Underground Sea
1 Badlands
1 Volcanic Island
1 Scrubland
1 Swamp

4 Brainstorm
3 Mystical Tutor
1 Ponder
4 Dark Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
3 Chrome Mox
2 Cabal Ritual
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Burning Wish
4 Duress
1 Orim's Chant
2 Ad Nauseam
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Tendrils of Agony

--- Sideboard ---
3 Orim's Chant
2 Pyroclasm
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Eye of Nowhere
1 Grim Tutor
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Telemin Performance
1 Thoughtseize
1 Meltdown
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Tendrils of Agony

Lynx_the_one on the Gleemax forums says that this list has too little protection. I digress - you can play the long game against blue decks and set up a kill. In any case, after boards, you get 3 more Chants to protect yourself with.

It really doesn't have enough protection. For the longest time I tried to get TES and TES variants/hybrids to work in my CB infested meta but I gave up since it was to unreliable at dealing with that fucking enchantment. Check back in the thread, there are much better lists. Mine is posted (pretty standard U/B/w/g build) with reports a little ways back. The mana problems the deck has are kind of sick and the fact that a single Wasteland can ruin ur day is just bad times.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fistandantilus

If I follow up Conflagrate with Grapeshot (or, as I imagine, a couple of Grapeshots), then I won't need to draw 20+ cards off of AdN. I wasn't thinking of killing with a Conflagrate by itself. Plus, if the highest CMC in my deck (other than a single copy of AdN) is 2, then I probably will be able to draw quite a few more cards off of AdN than I could have if my library had contained Tendrils.

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Some good thoughts were already offered.
The thing with Tendril's mana cost is that you won't need to draw as many cards with AdN. Granted, you will sometimes reveal too much stuff to even reach a storm count of nine, but that's life.
You can't use post-AdN LED mana to put Conflagrate in your graveyard and still have it be useful, let alone casting Gshot afterwards. Conflagrate/Gshot or Gshot/Gshot is also a two-card combo, just as IT/LED, LED/BWish or tutor/cantrip. It would certainly lessen the chance of drawing AdN, Tendrils, IGG somewhat but considering most people only play one Tendrils or two anyway, not by much. At the same time, it will decrease either consistency or disruptive capabilities with slots that are very subpar before you kill.
Playing only one AdN is reckless and should not be done outside of metagames without a trace of blue or black (unless, obviously, you have other engines). No matter how much playing only one would reduce your chances of drawing it, the deck falls apart without a combo engine, and a single discard spell or counterspell could prove disastrous to a one-piece version - also, it would lose some consistency and the ability to imprint AdN.

Two Grapeshots actually deal one damage more than Tendrils (first one deals half exactly, second one deals half plus one). But it's two cards that will do little to further your setup - they don't search, produce mana, or disrupt (except MMs, Canons and Teegs).
If you're unable to draw into two Grapeshots, you'll have to tutor for them (as you mentioned), which costs 3BRR total. Burning Wish for Tendrils costs 3RBB and only one card.

[quote]Given the choice between Burning Wish for Tendrils or simply playing two copies of Grapeshot (even if it meant playing IT for the second copy of Grapeshot), I think I'd just as soon do the latter. [quote]
What would you cut?
And why would you play four cards that can remove small creatures and win in multiples rather than playing four cards (not saying this is the right amount of Wishes in any case) that can serve as creature removal, disenchant, IGG, draw, ETW and as a win condition?

The thing is that the deck is already pretty tight, with a lot of mandatory slots. Most people prefer to occupy the rest with some combination of additional rituals and ADNs for speed and consistency, other combo engines such as IGG and Doomsday for consistency and flexibility, or disruption. I just don't see fitting 5+ cards in there that are useless unless you're succesfully going off (Mox Diamond is randomly useful early and doesn't make the cut most of the time).
Your envisioned deck may well win more consistently once you've resolved AdN but if you test it I think you will find that it resolves AdN less often.
In short, I'd rather fizzle than not get the chance to fizzle in the first place.

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When you're running Tendrils, it's pretty much "do it all in one turn" or lose the game, since you're only running one or two copies of a card that can kill, and have no cards that function to remove the opponent's creature threats.

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This is not quite true. I have won games with Tendrils for a small amount, then IGG the thing next turn. Or using my limited mana to pick apart my opponent's hand with Duress and going off after the next untap step. I even baited Stifle with Tendrils once or twice, having used my discard spells on counterspells beforehand.
I have also found that most of the time, once I succesfully resolved AdN, killing in one shot wasn't all that difficult, even if I had to wait a turn sometimes, and sometimes that killed me or I fizzled. Needless to say, if you're paying fifteen life, passing your turn is always a liability and killing in one shot is prudent.



A shame, really, because I like Conflagrate. By all means, test it. I wouldn't be too hopeful for the reasons outlined above. If it only were an instant, I'd be all over Necrologia.

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Originally Posted by Pulp Fiction

It really doesn't have enough protection. For the longest time I tried to get TES and TES variants/hybrids to work in my CB infested meta but I gave up since it was to unreliable at dealing with that fucking enchantment. Check back in the thread, there are much better lists. Mine is posted (pretty standard U/B/w/g build) with reports a little ways back. The mana problems the deck has are kind of sick and the fact that a single Wasteland can ruin ur day is just bad times.

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What do you suggest, then, for more protection? Red is simply amazing in the options it offers.

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Originally Posted by Noman Peopled

Some good thoughts were already offered.

. . .

If it only were an instant, I'd be all over Necrologia.

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OK, good points.

Thanks for alerting me to Necrologia, too. :tongue: I wonder if one could use Quicken in conjunction with Conflagrate and Necrologia to do something interesting.

EDIT: But then, Necrologia actually might draw you fewer cards than AdN on average, because with Necrologia, you're also paying 1 life for the lands and other 0 CMC spells.

So I just got a question. How does this deck fight off extripate if your not running burning wish? Do you just extend the hand or is there something I'm missing here.

The only time they should get a chance to Extirpate ToA, their lifetotal<0 , at least it should be. When would any beneficial card be in the GY? There is also Chant and Duress (Duress doesn't always work in this situation) if you want to use IGG.

What about Extract (failing Burning wish)...very narrow hate but still...

The only time I'm afraid of Extirpate with this deck is when they Extirpate after I resolve a Mystical Tutor.

In a meta composed of Goblins, Rock, Ichorid, SuiBlack, Affinity, Zoo/Sligh/Burn, Dreadstill, Thresh, and a whole slew of rogue decks, is combo a good choice? I run a version which also features Doomsday, by the way. It's final deck choice time. :tongue:

Hey all, I'm in the process of putting an ANT list together but I have some questions. First, I play 2 weekly local events with VASTLY different metagames. One is CB/Top: Play it or be played by it (I play it) and the other is wide open - one week there are 4 Ichorid lists, the next week 3 Survival Lists, etc. You can depend on usually seeing some sui black variants, various swarm aggro strategies, 2+ burn decks and 1-2 Thresh decks. With that information, here's what I want to know:

1a. Counterbalance - What's the best hate? I'm going to roll with Wipe Away main and K. Grip side but good players float 3.
1b. Counterbalance - When is the most effective time to Grip/Wipe Away when you have the read on them floating 3? It seems like you'd want to bait a Top activation with some accel/protection main phase and then go for it when you get priority back but that is extremely mana intensive. I see best case scenario you Mystical Tutor on their end-step as bait, then Grip/Wipe Away when you receive priority again, but they receive it first after CB trigger resolves because they're still the active player, correct? Again, we're talking about very good players here (duh, they're playing CB/Top).
2. In what matchups does Dark Confidant come in? The aforementioned sui-black variants, hoping they board out removal and you can recover against their discard? Is he used as a man-plan, a draw engine, or (presumably) both? I'd imagine the draw engine is the more critical component here, but I feel like there have to be better sideboard cards.
3. How necessary is Orim's Chant? It seems like PoN/Duress package is pretty superior and allows you to maintain a more stable manabase. I plan on boarding Tundra/Angel's Grace for burn specifically as you can usually only safely Ad Nauseam from 14 down to 8 against them, although PoN seems strong here.
4. Looking at these questions, I guess most of my questions are sideboard related. I plan on SBing the LED/Inf Tutor package so that's 7 slots right there. The other 8 will obviously be different for the different metagames. Suggestions? Thanks in advance!

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Originally Posted by gamegeek2

What do you suggest, then, for more protection? Red is simply amazing in the options it offers.

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This is what I play, I have yet to find any protection spells aside from Duress and Chant that are consistently good across all matchups you may face. This is what I run and really enjoy it:

4x LED
4x Dark Ritual
4x Lotus Petal
4x Duress
4x Mystical Tutor
4x Brainstorm
3x Infernal Tutor
3x Ponder
4x Orim's Chant
3x Cabal Ritual
3x Chrome Mox
2x Ad Nauseam
1x Tendrils of Agony
1x IGG
1x Krosan Grip

4x Flooded Strand
4x Polluted Delta
1x Swamp
1x Island
1x Underground Sea
1x Bayou
1x Tropical Island
1x Tundra
1x Scrubland

Sideboard

3x Xantid Swarm
2x Slaughter Pact
2x Krosan Grip
2x Sensei's Diving Top
1x Infernal Tutor
1x Ad Nauseam
1x Tendrils
1x IGG
1x Echoing Truth
1x meta slot (Chain of Vapor or Hurkyl's Recall/Rebuild usually)

The major concern a lot of people have when I talk about playing this deck in a major tournament is the matchup against blue decks. After a lot of playtesting with different builds, I came to the realization that cutting LED and Infernal tutor from the deck was the best call.

This allows you to stay with 2 colors and more protection in pact of negation main deck. I found another reason you lose to especially the tempo decks is the land base. It is very important to have a stable land base that plays with basic lands.

My version may be slower against the aggro decks, but its still a very good matchup with the ability to still with turn 1 or 2 via Ad Naseum.

If you test the LEDless Tendrils, you will be quite surprised how good it is against blue decks in general.

@nickrit - what protection from Counterbalance do you run, aside from Duress?