What was the word of running the new Jace as a two of? Not very good or personal preference?
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What was the word of running the new Jace as a two of? Not very good or personal preference?
More controling versions of Counterblance decks has been playing some cards at 4cc for a while. Mystic Enforcer, Sower of Temptation, Elspeth and Natural Order comes to my mind as the one I did in the last year or so. All those cards had great impact in the game, and we can now say that Natural Order is the most succesful one. Trying to replace it would mean you have a clear goal in mind while doing so. Because trying to fit a 4th and a 5th 4cc cards in this deck will probably never happens, it means we would replace NO by Jace. In decks already not running NO, then we could do, but why would we?Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank The Tank
Let's have a check to our worst MU's:
Merfolks, Goblins are bad MU's. For the CB TOP decks running Progenitus, Goblins is even worst than for the rest of us (in regards of those stats). So It could be right to try finding a different way of beating aggro, but usually, we are not looking at 4cc cards to do so. The only card I see that could fulfill this role is Wrath of God. But that choice would ignore one of the reason why we are losing to those decks:Quote:
Originally Posted by Smmenen
- Our incapacity to cast our spells through Land Destruction.
Both decks are running Wasteland, some are running Port, some Stifle. Combined that with fast and furious horde of fishes/goblins, and their ability to bypass Counterbalance, and here we have our explication of our failure.
So trying to run a card with (w)(w) doesn't seem a better idea than continue running Progenitus (If Merfolk/Goblins is our main concern).
Why would we consider Jace TMS in this slot?
I don't really see him as a good aggro hoser. Yes it can bounces some creatures (not always a good idea if we look at Goblin Ringleader, Matron and Silvergill), but it reduces its thoughness. It still cost 4, even though there isn't any color requirement (basicly a cc of (4) colorless for us), it might enter a field already full of unblockable fishes. Will Brainstorm save us from a tenuous situation? Boomerang? I highly doubt it...
In the case you are looking at him to its potential of creating Card Advantage, yes, we could give him a try as their is a good synergy with fetch, Top and CB. But the main reason I will never try to fit him here is the fact that the metagame is way too fast to be able to take advantage of any CA. Countering or dominating board presence is what I'm looking for to fulfill these MD slots. Our only way to make CA is to land CB, protect it and be able to take advantage of it. Fastness and "Vialness" of those decks makes it nearly impossible until I reset the board. That's why we have been a lot to run Firespout, which is probably the best answer we have available for now.
P-M
"That's why we have been a lot to run Firespout, which is probably the best answer we have available for now."
I disagree. Have you ever considered going Umezawa's jitte (in the sideboard)? (thx steven (Elf_Ascetic) for making me aware of the awesomeness)
I think each BANT creature base is looking like this, right now:
4 Noble hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Rhox War Monk
3-4 Qasali Pridemage
(1 Dryad Arbor and 1 Progenitus or 3 Elspeth)
Agree?
A list looking like this has enough creatures for Umezawa's Jitte. Each creature (even Noble Hierarch, a 1/1 soldier token or dryad arbor) because a real threath for your opponent. I think we all know that getting an active Umezawa's Jitte makes you relax and enjoy the show.
There is another pro about playing Umezawa's jitte. You actually said it yourself when you were declining Wrath of God as an answer to Agro:
"But that choice would ignore one of the reason why we are losing to those decks:
Our incapacity to cast our spells through Land Destruction.
Both decks are running Wasteland, some are running Port, some Stifle. Combined that with fast and furious horde of fishes/goblins, and their ability to bypass Counterbalance, and here we have our explication of our failure."
Resolving an 3c (off-colour) card against Merfolk is extremely hard (cursecatcher, daze, stifle + wasteland). The same goes for Goblins playing 4 wasteland/4 rishidan port. Why would you risk this if you can also play Umezawa's Jitte with its awesome manacost (of (2)).
To conclude.
Umezawa's jitte:
Creates a stable manabase,
Has enough creatures in BANT to make it awesome.
Is hard to counter/disrupt by your opponent
looks pretty decent to me. Doesn't it?
What is the point of running bant colors and the crappy cards that go with it if it puts up such terrible results against merfolk and goblins? It doesn't even do all that great vs zoo. Anyway here is a black version I would run...
20 lands
4 wasteland
2 island
1 forest
1 swamp
3 underground sea
2 tropical island
4 misty rainforest
3 polluted delta
10 critters
4 dark confidant
4 tarmogoyf
2 sower of temptation
30 other spells
4 brainstorm
4 force of will
4 stifle
4 counterbalance
3 daze
3 sensei's divining top
2 maelstrom pulse
1 engineered explosives
3 smother
2 thoughtseize
Sideboard
2 extirpate
2 relic of progenitus
1 tormods crypt
3 pernicious deed
2 hydroblast
1 blue elemental blast
1 threads of disloyalty
1 krosan grip
2 open slots
You have much better game against merfolk than the bant lists for 2 reasons. First off you have more removal so it is much easier to get rid of their islandwalkers. You also have wastelands to killl their mutavaults. Secondly you have dark confidant and if he lands they can't really keep up with you. You also get deed out of the board which completely destroys them. I'm 4-0-1 against merfolk at competitive events. The only games I lost were due to me getting very unlucky( mana screw/flood) or the them drawing really aggressive hands with lots of lords.
Besides the improved merfolk matchup you pretty much destroy all other countertop decks. They play things like noble hierarch and rhox war monk which are garbage and you play confidant. If they resolve counterbalance/top you can even blow it up with pulse/ee.
Zoo seems like a rough matchup, but it isn't that bad. Wasteland/stifle can be huge against them and so can EE. It used to be a lone putrefy, but putrefy was just awful. For the most part if you are on the play I would say you are favored, while if you are on the draw it is in their favor. Post board though you bring in deeds and blasts which should make the matchup much easier. I would say this is a 50-50 matchup if the zoo list is good and the pilot is competant. That isn't usually the case though and if they keep a mediocre hand or board wrong you should have a huge edge.
Anyway, the only card that really bothers me in testing is thoughtseize. It is very good in some matchups, but I feel that most of the time it is subpar. Against all aggressive decks as well as a plethora of other decks it is just so weak. Its also a terrible topdeck lategame. This makes me feel like there must be something better in that slot, but I have yet to decide on anything.
Bant has lots of ways to deal with merfs and gobs.
1. Rhox War Monk
2. Jitte
3. Removals (wrath of god, pte, etc.)
4. Nat Order Combo
Rhox + Jitte for me has performed well against aggro decks.
Well, apparently those aren't enough... The numbers speak for themselves...Quote:
Originally Posted by _erbs_
3-6 versus Goblins
2-7 versus Merfolk
@andrew77
Those matchups are really hard but i have decent win-loss record against them. Im using ProgenThresh and runs 4 rhox main.
My teammate who uses bant aswell has a very good win-loss record vs merfs decks. Our meta is filled with merfs and gobs around 40% of our meta are gobs and merfs.
The list http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=30361
I would have to disagree because, you depend on a 3cmc, tri-colored beater with which is easily prevented from hitting play (Rishadan Port, Wasteland) and dealt with (Warren Weirdings, Pyro/REB, Stingscourger, Pyrokenesis, Perish, Goblin Piledriver) in the goblins matchup.
When it comes to Merfolk, gaining 3 life a swing is sometimes not enough to stabilize, considering that they can bypass your blockers altogether.
Even with NO, sweepers like Firespout and Wrath of God, the MU against aggro (Merfolk and Goblins) tends to still be in their favor.
I would love to play Dark Confidant, which gives me access to Deed as well. But there is just too much Zoo in my meta to warrant that. He dies to every card in their deck and the card advantage is a liability in that matchup.
At a larger event outside of the area I would have no problem running black. But it also requires testing which I don't really have.
Andrew, I'm not gonna really get into the whole UBG CounterTop vs. Supreme Blue thing, but first and foremost Smemmen was not testing a Natural Order or even Supreme Blue list, and second of all he played only 9 games against each of those decks. Dark Confidant is good and so is removal, but Natural Order adds something that those cards can't offer. For me personally, I'd like to have the possibility of getting a Progenitals into play rather than having other cards that can help out the matchup. In the 60 card mirror that I played with Supreme Blue w/ NO I only won because of Natural Order. Both of us were evenly matched, but I drew my Natural Order and he didn't so I won. Grinding out the game can be effective, but with Natural Order you just win the game. Dark Confidant can give you card advantage and bring you back into games you shouldn't be, but how does that compare to just winning most of the time as your opponent has no answer to a 10/10 Protection from everything.
As far as Goblins and Merfolk go, I'm personally not worried about Goblins that much as it is underrepresented in my area, and I may put Propaganda/ Ghostly Prison into my board to deal with Merfolk if the deck becomes more popular. Rhox War Monk gums up the board plain and simple while also giving you something you could sacrifice to Natural Order or go on the offensive with. Sometimes you can't cast your guys, but if you resolve one you ought to be able to start creating either favorable blocks or reduce the number of creatures attacking you over a long period of time.
Are you referring to our game? Cuz we were actually I think a 58 card mirror, but yeah, still pretty much means the same. ;pQuote:
Originally Posted by wmagzoo7
Also, at that tournament I defeated a player piloting that UBG list... because I resolved progenitus. I'm not sure if I'll play a CB Top deck or not at the next tournament I attend, but if I do I'm definitely playing progenitus...
I just don't like natural/order progenitus as a combo. I like it even less because you have to run noble hierarch to support it. I was also extremely underwhelmed by rhox war monk in testing. He is a bitch to cast, forces you to cut wasteland/stifle package and isn't even all that effective against a lot of decks. The only reason to run white imo would be stp. I prefer to run a black or red splash as white just doesn't cut it. There isn't enough raw power in the bant decks.
There isn't enough raw power in a 10/10 pro everything?
Also, a lot of us run Wall of Roots instead of Noble Hierarch, which is very good.
And personally, I hate stifle/wasteland in a CB Top deck. CB Top asks for the game to go long so you can abuse the advantage they provide, and Stifle/Waste want the game to stay short so you can capitilize on the instability you create. You end up having shitty topdecks that don't affect the board, while your opponent puts a 10/10 pro everything into play... yeah, seems really good...
I didn't realize that was your whole game plan. What happens if NO gets countered or discarded? You lose because you play crap cards like wall of roots?Quote:
Originally Posted by hungryLIKEALION
So since you are a fan of long games you obviously get your progenitus into play t3 and just let it sit there as a blocker right? I mean counterbalance/top asks for the game to be long and a 10/10 doesn't so wtf. I don't get it.Quote:
Originally Posted by hungryLIKEALION
As I said before stifle/wasteland is essential if you want to beat zoo. It has uses against most other decks as well and can randomly win games.
The 10/10 is a combo finish. Think of it as being more like a burn spell in terms of reach.
EDIT: The exclusive goal of the deck is not necessarily to go for a fast NO, although that's an option in some situations. The point is that the game ends quickly after Progenitus hits play, not in general. It's probably a much better idea to set up Counterbalance and then go for Natural Order with sufficient Top mana up against decks that can profitably interact with you through counters or burn.
Another way to look at it: think of it as being the difference between Ichorid producing seven 3/3 hasty Zombies on turn one or slow rolling you with a couple Grave-Trolls and Ichorids. The same deck can adopt different play speeds depending on whether the situation merits it.
Alright, if you want to play the strawman game, "WHAT'S YOUR PLAN IF BOB DIES!? LOSE BECAUSE YOU PLAY CRAP CARDS LIKE STIFLE!? OMG I'M SO FUNNY ECKS DEE ECKS DEE ECKS DEE!!!" ... Yeah that seems like I made a real, intelligent point there! I'm really proud of myself. :) I should argue like this more often! Oh, wait, no I shouldn't, because arguing like that makes me sound like a jackass.Quote:
Originally Posted by andrew77
You're obviously being a dick for the sake of being a dick, and I don't feel like explaining what's incredibly obvious to anyone with a brain, but if I have to I'll give it a short explanation. A 10/10 is good at every point in the game. You play it on t3 or t10, it wins you the game. Stifle is good on turn 1, okay on turn 2, and pretty lackluster turns 3-4 onward. Wasteland is a little better since it can hit utility lands, but does loses most of its real power once your opponent's mana base has stabilized.Quote:
So since you are a fan of long games you obviously get your progenitus into play t3 and just let it sit there as a blocker right? I mean counterbalance/top asks for the game to be long and a 10/10 doesn't so wtf. I don't get it.
... Except for the part where it isn't? I'm over 20-5 in matches against my brother, me playing SU him playing Zoo, and he's no slouch. Not as good as me, but still no slouch. Progenitus is actually the best thing you can play against Zoo, since they can't disrupt it and he effectively wins the game immediately upon showing up, barring a ridiculous string of burn spells. In addition, as a Zoo player, I will say that the only CB Top decks I'm actually concerned about are those with NO.Quote:
As I said before stifle/wasteland is essential if you want to beat zoo.
Yeah, this is true. But to posit that NO doesn't do this with at least the same frequency (if not even more often), is... well... silly. NO reminds me of my days playing Tron in Extended. You can be completely on the ropes, with no chance of winning left, when all of a sudden you topdeck mindslaver and have 11U+ruins up and realize you win. Now, NO isn't QUITE as fool proof, but the price is a lot lower and the margin by which you can still lose is still not that large. I've only ever lost once with progenitus in play, and that was against imperial painter where he topdecked a grindstone with a painter already in play on the last possible turn, with a red blast backup for my FoW. I'm not terribly concerned about that situation happening terribly often.Quote:
It has uses against most other decks as well and can randomly win games.
It's fine if you prefer your version. I don't really care what you play. But what you said is that you don't think Bant has raw power, and I responded by pointing out the fact that a 10/10 pro everything is, uhm, powerful.
Aggro Zombies is correct in his analysis.
Are you suggesting playing Stifle/Wasteland (i.e. tempo) in cunjunction with Swords to Plowshares (which basically kills your tempo by giving life to your opponent)? Ok, I guess you meant the other removal for W which gives your opponent a (basic) land... thus making Wasteland and... wait a minute... what is tempo again ? I'm confused... ah well, I must be stupid...Quote:
As I said before stifle/wasteland is essential if you want to beat zoo. It has uses against most other decks as well and can randomly win games.
Clearly you have tested the deck and you know what you are talking about. Clearly you are aware of the mutliple Top8s the deck generated... these tournaments must have consisted of inbred post nuclear one toothed morons who need a special device to prevent them from drooling on their cards and craping in their pants at the same time while shuffling their decks...Quote:
Originally Posted by andrew77
You play your deck the exact same way whatever the match-up ? Is that what your are suggesting ? So basically, your argument goes like this: assuming the deck's pilot is an idiot and always goes for turn 3 NO, whatever the deck he's playing against, then this deck is crap. The underlined part the above quote makes me seriously question if you know what you are talking about. Maybe it's a case of "more playing, less posting" - I heard doctors recommend playing and a moderate amount of thinking in that case.Quote:
So since you are a fan of long games you obviously get your progenitus into play t3 and just let it sit there as a blocker right? I mean counterbalance/top asks for the game to be long and a 10/10 doesn't so wtf. I don't get it.
P.S.: Don't bother replying, you have joined my ignore list. Have a nice day.
I guess tempo is a very hard concept for some people. Countertop decks are not tempo decks. That being said playing tempo cards like stifle is still quite helpful because of the massive tempo they can generate in the early turns. It doesn't matter if you aren't using this advantage to kill your opponent because dropping counterbalance/top or confidant is just as devastating. Even decks like landstill have run stifle in the past. Apparently you are just completely ignorant and have no idea what you are talking about. Although, you are from Montreal so idk what I expected.Quote:
Originally Posted by aTn
I also find it funny when you supreme blue players criticize stifle as being narrow when you play garbage cards like wall of roots.
I would hope you have a good zoo matchup as you run so many cards for that matchup. I mean wall of roots, firespout, war monk. All are great against zoo, but mediocre to terrible against other decks. I would go as far as to say that your deck is too random. You play too many cards that are only good against some matchups for it to do well at a long event. Eventually you will draw the wrong answers and lose. Not only do you have to worry about drawing the wrong threats, but you are very susceptible to mana screw as well. Stifle/wasteland can absolutely destroy any hopes you have of casting most of your spells.Quote:
Originally Posted by hungryLIKEALION
The mana base is actually quite resillient combined with top, brainstorm and wall of roots. Wall of roots also serves to power out a daze proof firespout, or though mana disruption. It does this all the while blanking a nactal, kird ape, or some random goblin. While wall of roots is far from the best card ever, the metagame certainly warrents it as a strong choice.