[Deck] Elves Combo

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Originally Posted by AznSeal

So is wish elves more consistent or pure combo turned aggro post board better.

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Im not sold on either choice being better that the other. Wish type has its pros and cons as does Combo. I can see where one might have a better chance vs certain decks. I think that it comes down to what you personaly want to run. There are a few things that they both have in common. They both are great decks, early, mid and late game. They both can make full use out of their sideboards, although one has access to theirs game 1, but can also be countered. Like I said, it really just comes down to what you want to play. I would recomend trying both versions and try to make any change you want to. This deck type isnt really a "must net deck" type of deck.

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Originally Posted by PhantomOtter

Im not sold on either choice being better that the other. Wish type has its pros and cons as does Combo. I can see where one might have a better chance vs certain decks. I think that it comes down to what you personaly want to run. There are a few things that they both have in common. They both are great decks, early, mid and late game. They both can make full use out of their sideboards, although one has access to theirs game 1, but can also be countered. Like I said, it really just comes down to what you want to play. I would recomend trying both versions and try to make any change you want to. This deck type isnt really a "must net deck" type of deck.

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I always bring this up, but have never had an adequate response. If they let you resolve glimpse and let you combo, they don't have any counters. They will counter glimpse, worrying about wish being countered is irrelevant.

I used to play the no wish version, but I'd like to hear people's points against the wish version. What benefits are there to not running wish?

It would really just depend on who you are playing. If they know you use wish and have board sweepers it would wreck you but the same could be said about non wish decks. This is were it gets hard to define advantage vs disadvantage. A countered glimpse, and countered wish? It is so hard to tell what people would do. One of the only downfalls to the wish deck is the counter threat, but come on, we have discused this. The only advantage right off hand would be the access to your sideboard. I honestly think that it should be left up to the individual player. The best thing that I could think of to do would be to study your local meta. Adjust accordingly. If the dont play alot of counter try wish. If they play alot of counter try the regular combo. It is hard for me to say one is better than the other when they are both so good!

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Originally Posted by PhantomOtter

It would really just depend on who you are playing. If they know you use wish and have board sweepers it would wreck you but the same could be said about non wish decks. This is were it gets hard to define advantage vs disadvantage. A countered glimpse, and countered wish? It is so hard to tell what people would do. One of the only downfalls to the wish deck is the counter threat, but come on, we have discused this. The only advantage right off hand would be the access to your sideboard. I honestly think that it should be left up to the individual player. The best thing that I could think of to do would be to study your local meta. Adjust accordingly. If the dont play alot of counter try wish. If they play alot of counter try the regular combo. It is hard for me to say one is better than the other when they are both so good!

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While I appreciate the general sentiment by most people to play whatever you want, since the purpose of this thread is to make the deck as good as possible, we should try to figure out which is better. I do not think it is a matter of opinion, I think the wish build is strictly better, and here is why:

1) A countered glimpse hurts both builds, so this is nothing we should be comparing since it is the same in both cases

2) If they do counter glimpse and prevent you from comboing, wish can get you anything you need to make your non-combo game better

3) Again, they are not going to save a counter until your wincon. They are never going to wait until you load up the field with 20 dudes and then counter the wish that would bring out emrakul just so they can die next turn. You might say they will counter the wish so they can sweep, but they would have swept mid combo.

4) Emrakul is never a dead card in your hand.

5) You have 3 cards that give you access to cradle if you need mana, Emrakul if you can afford it, and everything helpful in between. You minimize dead cards.

I do not think it is hard to define advantage vs disadvantage in this case. I am convinced that the wish build is strictly better than the non wish build, and I see no reason to not play wish.


***this is not an attack on PhantomOtter, K2thej <3's PhantomOtter

I tested wish all yesterday and I love it. From my results, Its better than pure monogram combo. Now
I'm testing between wish and combo that splashes black for thoughtsieze or white for orim chant

K2, how do you usually play merfolk in game2?
i feel that merfolk kings, jitte and speed with vial hurts our ability to out aggro our opponent.
would you still go for combo vs. merfolk?

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Originally Posted by catmint

K2, how do you usually play merfolk in game2?
i feel that merfolk kings, jitte and speed with vial hurts our ability to out aggro our opponent.
would you still go for combo vs. merfolk?

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I've done both but I usually don't sb anything and just combo through them. Our combo clock is faster than their aggro clock, even through counters.

Ok. The only way to get this done the right way is to post your most recent deck list. Then I will post my Combo version and we will get the most optimal build for each deck. Then we can start the play testing and post some results. That way we can see ways to improve them. Then we can all look at the results and figure out the better build for Elves.

My take on Combo Elves:

4 Birchlore Rangers
3 Elvish Archdruid
4 Elvish Visionary
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Heritage Druid
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Nettle Sentinel
2 Priest of Titania
3 Quirion Ranger
1 Regal Force
4 Wirewood Symbiote
1 Viridian Shaman

4 Glimpse of Nature
3 Summoner's Pact
1 Tendrils of Agony

12 Forest
1 Pendelhaven
1 Gaea's Cradle

SIDEBOARD
2 Jorara Warcaller
2 Krosan Grip
2 Elvish Champion
4 Thorn of Amethyst
4 Leyline of Lifeforce
1 Viridian Shaman

There are many semantics involved in optimizing each type (wish/non wish) that are discussed throughout the thread. I do not think we need to optimize each to determine if it is a good idea to go for one or the other, since the optimization of each would be the same, and the only difference would be taking out cradle, emrakul, and one elf for the 3 wishes.

I would like someone to directly address my previous post on this page about why the wish build is strictly better and make a case for the combo build. If no one can, shouldn't living wish be a staple in elves combo?

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Originally Posted by k2thej

There are many semantics involved in optimizing each type (wish/non wish) that are discussed throughout the thread. I do not think we need to optimize each to determine if it is a good idea to go for one or the other, since the optimization of each would be the same, and the only difference would be taking out cradle, emrakul, and one elf for the 3 wishes.

I would like someone to directly address my previous post on this page about why the wish build is strictly better and make a case for the combo build. If no one can, shouldn't living wish be a staple in elves combo?

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..agree.
I can't think of any arguments for not playing wish. ... just much more flexible!

Another question for me (as a rather new evle player) is mulligan.

I play 13 forest/fetches and no elvish spirit guide.
sometimes i take a hand where I have not a good feeling, because it happened to me frequently that I have to take mulligan to 3-4, because no land shows up.

what are your guidelines for taking mulligan (depending on if you want to go combo or aggro).
Would be very nice if you post some example hands.

Fore example I had a match 2nd game vs. counter/top i decided to go for aggro with leylines for protection.
My hand is: land, land, leyline, leyline, llanowar, terastodon, wirewood
.. i cannot really put pressure and if I dont topdeck my chances are not good.

or 1st game vs. merfolk
land, land, land, heritage, quirion, quiron, living whish
far away from combo, but if you want to go aggro you very slow.


...would love to "sweat" an experienced elve-player via teamviewer or something to learn about their thinking process/decision making
would someone want to help? :)

k2thej

Would like to see your current deck list so I can try it out. Hard for me to judge fairly without atleast play testing both.

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Originally Posted by PhantomOtter

k2thej

Would like to see your current deck list so I can try it out. Hard for me to judge fairly without atleast play testing both.

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4 Birchlore Rangers
3 Elvish Archdruid
4 Elvish Visionary
3 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Heritage Druid
1 Joraga Warcaller
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Quirion Ranger
1 Regal Force
4 Wirewood Symbiote

4 Glimpse of Nature
3 Living Wish
4 Summoner's Pact

6 Forest
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Verdant Catacombs

SB:
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Joraga Warcaller
4 Leyline of Lifeforce
1 Masticore
1 Regal Force
1 Terastodon
4 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Viridian Shaman

k2thej, I am playing elves for some time using your builds and I ll finaly try now the wish build. (btw-non wish build has more space for sidecards)

I read this forum quite regulary and I didnt understand your arguments against sweepers. I personaly think that fecundity is amazing. Absolutely! At number of two it has been serving me very well. If you go aggro plan in your second game you want to play as many elves as you can, right? than EE can wreck your plan. Today i played against my friend with CotV and Wrath of God, EE and so on control. Leyline+fecundity0= gg. Resolved fecundity means you almost cant loose aginst certain decks...

What do you do with this: llanowar, llanowar, quirion, visionary, nettle, nettle, forest. Would you keep it? And if yes would you try to aggro your opp round one?
Any mull rules? This deck doesnt like mulligans...

Thank you very mcuh.

Tom

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Originally Posted by Koplinchen

k2thej, I am playing elves for some time using your builds and I ll finaly try now the wish build. (btw-non wish build has more space for sidecards)

I read this forum quite regulary and I didnt understand your arguments against sweepers. I personaly think that fecundity is amazing. Absolutely! At number of two it has been serving me very well. If you go aggro plan in your second game you want to play as many elves as you can, right? than EE can wreck your plan. Today i played against my friend with CotV and Wrath of God, EE and so on control. Leyline+fecundity0= gg. Resolved fecundity means you almost cant loose aginst certain decks...

What do you do with this: llanowar, llanowar, quirion, visionary, nettle, nettle, forest. Would you keep it? And if yes would you try to aggro your opp round one?
Any mull rules? This deck doesnt like mulligans...

Thank you very mcuh.

Tom

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Tom- Glad to hear you like the builds! I think you'll find the wish build a great improvement.

As for fecundity, it's not that I don't like it, it's that I don't think it is better than other sideboard choices. When it is resolved, it is great, but it isn't always resolved. The only place I would potentially put it (or caller of the claw) is in place of the thorns in the board. I guess it is a question of if you think combo or sweepers will be a bigger problem for you in your next tournament. On turn two you have access to three mana, so if you draw a pact you can get an archdruid and go aggro with all the guys you will have out, or you can kick a warcaller. You can also living wish for a warcaller. If you draw a heritage, you will be able to summon a regal force on turn three, or you could wish one in. Basically, if you were to draw any of these cards in the first three turns you would be ok:

glimpse, summoner's pact, living wish, warcaller, archdruid, symbiote (since you already have a visionary), regal force=20 cards

Since will draw 3 cards in the first three turns even if you are on the play because of visionary, that means you have a 1- (33/53 x 32/52 x 31/51)= 76.7% chance of getting one of those cards.

If you get one of them, you should be fine, so you basically have a 76.7% chance of being fine. Thus, I would keep the hand.

You are correct that this deck does not like mulligans. I would probably keep that hand. The reason is you have a visionary, so you already get one extra card, and if you draw a symbiote you will get an extra card every turn.

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Originally Posted by k2thej

3 Living Wish
4 Summoner's Pact

SB:
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Joraga Warcaller
4 Leyline of Lifeforce
1 Masticore
1 Regal Force
1 Terastodon
4 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Viridian Shaman

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My question is. What is there in your sideboard, other than Emrakul, so important, that you would need to tutor for in the first game.

I see much more potential in running GSZ, for the same reason that you run Pact over GSZ, 1 mana less. Sure, Zenith doesn't draw on a resolved glimpse, but it's greatest power is in tutoring on turn 2 to make sure that we combo turn 3, and if we wanna use it while comboing turn 2, it means that we will be really tight in mana so again 1 less is great. Also, that's a big point for GSZ, since it can tutor Llanowar, Quirion, Symbiote, Heritage, anything, and wish only goes for Emrakul, and Warcaller..... :S
You also run 4 Pacts and 3 Wish which make many chances of having 2 of those cards in an opening hand which would suck. I only run 3 and 2, and I hate it when I get multiples in my hands. Elves is what we need not spells.

I will stick to GSZ, it has shown to be superb for me, and I don't see any advantages in adding Wish, because it also reduces sideboard spots a great deal, seeing as you only have room for Thorn since you also run Leyline.

I just want results everyone. Paper decks isn't real magic. If everyone started having great results with Wish IRL than great, but so far I'm go

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Originally Posted by NihilObstat

My question is. What is there in your sideboard, other than Emrakul, so important, that you would need to tutor for in the first game.

I see much more potential in running GSZ, for the same reason that you run Pact over GSZ, 1 mana less. Sure, Zenith doesn't draw on a resolved glimpse, but it's greatest power is in tutoring on turn 2 to make sure that we combo turn 3, and if we wanna use it while comboing turn 2, it means that we will be really tight in mana so again 1 less is great. Also, that's a big point for GSZ, since it can tutor Llanowar, Quirion, Symbiote, Heritage, anything, and wish only goes for Emrakul, and Warcaller..... :S
You also run 4 Pacts and 3 Wish which make many chances of having 2 of those cards in an opening hand which would suck. I only run 3 and 2, and I hate it when I get multiples in my hands. Elves is what we need not spells.

I will stick to GSZ, it has shown to be superb for me, and I don't see any advantages in adding Wish, because it also reduces sideboard spots a great deal, seeing as you only have room for Thorn since you also run Leyline.

I just want results everyone. Paper decks isn't real magic. If everyone started having great results with Wish IRL than great, but so far I'm go

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Wish G1:
-Guarantees you won't have Emrakul in hand
-Gives you 3 more chances at regal force
-3 Chances at Cradle instead of 1
-Masticore to kill Peacekeeper, Blazing Archon, any other creatures that may stop/kill you
-Shaman to take out any artifacts
-3 more chances at a lord (warcaller)
-Terrastodon to take out any other permanents that could stop you (Tabernacle, Moat, glacial chasm, Humility, etc)
***and, above all, guaranteeing that you get the exact one of these that you need and NO others, no other tutor can do this because they require the cards to be in the deck***

To your point about having multiples in hand, Summoner's pact IS an elf, so that's irrelevant.

Also, again, my biggest gripe with GSZ is that it is summoner's pact for one more mana, and it doesn't matter if you can afford it on turn two, because the biggest obstacle to overcome with turn 2 combos (and comboing in general) is continuing to draw elves, not worrying about mana, and it does not help with this at all. Actually, it hurts it, since it is a card that if you draw mid combo it does not let you draw another card. With regards to card advantage, drawing GSZ mid combo is the same thing as drawing a land (unless you use it to get visionary or symbiote, or can afford regal force, but in all these cases summoners pact would still be better). In combo, there is no advantage whatsoever to running GSZ over pact.

EDIT: after posting this I realized you were arguing for GSZ vs. Wish not pact. My mistake.
I still say with is better for the reasons listed above. You can't compare the mana cost of the two cards because they do two completely different things. One allows you to save maindeck space, which is the biggest advantage for me that I see in wish. The other is a MD tutor, another (worse) pact. Have you tested the wish build? I really think you'll like it...

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Originally Posted by k2thej

Wish G1:
-Guarantees you won't have Emrakul in hand
-Gives you 3 more chances at regal force
-3 Chances at Cradle instead of 1
-Masticore to kill Peacekeeper, Blazing Archon, any other creatures that may stop/kill you
-Shaman to take out any artifacts
-3 more chances at a lord (warcaller)
-Terrastodon to take out any other permanents that could stop you (Tabernacle, Moat, glacial chasm, Humility, etc)
***and, above all, guaranteeing that you get the exact one of these that you need and NO others, no other tutor can do this because they require the cards to be in the deck***

To your point about having multiples in hand, Summoner's pact IS an elf, so that's irrelevant.

Also, again, my biggest gripe with GSZ is that it is summoner's pact for one more mana, and it doesn't matter if you can afford it on turn two, because the biggest obstacle to overcome with turn 2 combos (and comboing in general) is continuing to draw elves, not worrying about mana, and it does not help with this at all. Actually, it hurts it, since it is a card that if you draw mid combo it does not let you draw another card. With regards to card advantage, drawing GSZ mid combo is the same thing as drawing a land (unless you use it to get visionary or symbiote, or can afford regal force, but in all these cases summoners pact would still be better). In combo, there is no advantage whatsoever to running GSZ over pact.

EDIT: after posting this I realized you were arguing for GSZ vs. Wish not pact. My mistake.
I still say with is better for the reasons listed above. You can't compare the mana cost of the two cards because they do two completely different things. One allows you to save maindeck space, which is the biggest advantage for me that I see in wish. The other is a MD tutor, another (worse) pact. Have you tested the wish build? I really think you'll like it...

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95% of the games you will ONLY use Wish to fetch Emrakul or Regal, so instead of "not seeing" 1 Emrakul in your hand, you will be seeing 3+Regal, that's great.
Cradle works hell better with Crop Rotation, nothing to say.
Peacekeeper, or Blazing archon, or Moat don't stop my build. Try running storm.
I run 1 Viridian Zealot maindeck (or Shaman), instead of 1 of your Wishes, he's a creature, he's an elf, costs the same mana, and is tutoreable with Pact + GSZ.
Ok, again you run 7 tutors, I run 5, all my 5 tutor can fetch Warcaller or Regal too. I do believe 7 is too much.
I almost NEVER see tabernacle or Glacial chasm. I don't fear Moat, and I was gonna say that the ONLY reason to add wish so far would be to destroy Humility, but wait your tutorable Terastodon doesn't destroy it, shame....

Summoner is not a Llanowar to get extra mana, that's it, and I'm not talking about summoner's anyway, but about Wish, so focus on the topic. I do run summoner's ;)

So your biggest defense is that Wish saves maindeck space. Well, again, you run 3 Wishes and the only utility and combo focused cards I see in your side are Regal and Emrakul. So instead of running 1 of each, total of 2, you are runing 1 regal and 3 wishes, which are 4 cards in your MD, and it also makes Regal 1 mana more expensive, which in most of my games has been a BIG difference.
So, after this I hope you see that Wish doesn't just screw your maindeck room which could be used fitting more elves, or giving Crop a shot, but it also makes you spend 3 spots in your side that could be better spent.

I also do believe that the only reason why you run 3 Wishes is because you actually fear that it gets countered, opposite to what you are saying, because otherwise 2 should be more than enough. You used to only run 1 Emrakul as a 1 turn wincon, why run 3 of them now. Maybe because he's no longer uncounterable?

I thought ETB abilities gets stopped by Humility to Ulamog or Terastadon can't beat it.

Interesting build.

I did not run Elves myself last weekend, but I built an Elf combo deck for a friend to run at the StarCity Legacy Challenge. (Four rounds swiss, no cut). My deck differed from yours mainly in that: (1) I ran GSZ in and an Arbor in place of the Qurion Rangersl (2) r I ran 3 more lands, and (3) I divided my threats between main and sb. So, for example, I had warcaller, regal force, and masticore main to free up more sideboard slots for Krosan Grips. My theory was the GSZ would grab these cheaper win cons for me while still functioning as a mana dork on its own.

My friend went 2-2, and his big complaint was lack of consistency. He would go off, but typically fizzle mid-combo. Your list appears geared towards combo at all costs, and maximum consistency. How does this work out when you cannot find a glimpse?

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Originally Posted by AznSeal

I thought ETB abilities gets stopped by Humility to Ulamog or Terastadon can't beat it.

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Thats actually a fascinating point. Ulamog can destroy Humility (it's not an ETB effect) while Terrastadon cannot. Maybe we should run the Eldrazi over the Elephant?