Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins 2.0
Quote:
Jesus, don't come with those 50/50 percentage bullshit (lucky/bad drawing just poop on your beloved math), just play your deck seriously and stop scooping to a turn 1 MMS.
Just a quick response since I am at work. In my local meta, it is primary aggro. So the Merfolk players here usually MD Jitte. Also, many people here are now sideboarding in Dismember against Team America and other decks with big creatures, which indirectly gives them the option to SB againt me to kill Piledriver. For me, it is about even. I don't know how saying it is about even equate to: "OMG stop folding to T1 MM".
People need to chill and play the game. :/
Not directed to you. Just in general.
Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins 2.0
I assume this forum is for Vial Goblin players to discuss strategies to improve our match ups in the current meta as well as discuss potential new strategies to improve the deck overall.
@ Tacosnape and Nelis - You have both contributed frequently to this forum and from recent remarks I'm guessing you invested in Legacy early and have several competitive decks. I respect your opinion that you'd rather play a different deck in the current meta but posts that Goblins is trash is counter to the purpose I mentioned above.
Goblins is likely the only Legacy deck I will own as I *just* got my last two wastelands at $50 each... :mad: That being the case, I will be playing this deck even if it is tier 3. I'm not so much concerned with what you'd rather play but listen whenever you suggest improvements.
@ DragoFireheart - Your posts here started off as excellent questions stated rudely. Decks that can counter our turn 1 and 2 plays and still have a FoW in hand are difficult for ANY deck to deal with and we need to adapt to that (I personally liked the suggestion to use Leyline of Lifeforce, unfortunately my local store is out of them). Now you are clearly trolling. Seriously dude, you're a ***. STFU.
After googling niveau:tongue: I agree with GoboLord. I think the posts should stay constructive towards improving the deck rather than cries to jump ship.
Unfortunately for me, my local stores hold about 1 tournament a month and the most recent one coincided with the NPH release. Next one's not till July... I've been testing a mono-red 'moxtigator' list with maindeck Surgical Extraction, mostly to exploit the heavy use of fetch-lands in Legacy but occasionally useful 4 of's end up in your opponent's graveyard. Been having moderate success but haven't tested it enough to recommend it yet.
Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins 2.0
Quote:
Originally Posted by
L10
Just a quick response since I am at work. In my local meta, it is primary aggro. So the Merfolk players here usually MD Jitte. Also, many people here are now sideboarding in Dismember against Team America and other decks with big creatures, which indirectly gives them the option to SB againt me to kill Piledriver.
Lol, 4 life to kill a Piledriver? I'd be very pleased :D
Dismember only works against TA because they run very low threat density. Merfolk doesn't run any kind of effective removal (saving some white splashes) and Jitte, which can be dealt with pretty easily (shattering spree is a pretty good option now, since it works perfectly against Equipments and dodge counters like a champ).
And, as I've stated before, Merfolk has two BIG advantages: Islandwalk and cheap prices (saving Wasteland/FoW). That's why it's popular, and that's why it's effective. I'd say that 70% of Legacy is blue, maybe a close guess?
Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins 2.0
After thinking about about the future of this deck I figured I better start testing; Haters trying to get me down. :( Here's what I'm testing this weekend:
Mana: 23
16 Mountain
4 Wasteland
3 Chrome Mox
Goblins: 33
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
2 Siege-Gang Commander
3 Warren Instigator
3 Goblin Chieftain
3 Gempalm Incinerator
2 Stingscourger
4 Aether Vial
SB:15
TBD
I'm excited to test this. I really want to see how the Instigator + Chrome Mox lists were working out first hand. It's a mostly standard list but I also want to see how well Sparksmith performs. Sparksmith is a very unusual choice but it seems absolutely brutal against all the midrange creature decks. A 1st/2nd turn Sparksmith seems pretty hard to beat and they cant punish you for using your life so aggressively unlike Zoo... which also is on the seeing less play which is a another good thing for us. Anyways, best of luck if some of you guys are going to GP: Providence!
Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins 2.0
Kellyx, thanks for your reply. That is what I thought.
Malchar, I like to use Relic of Progenitus over Leyline of the Void because I don't like to gamble. For the sake of argument, lets say you have four copies of Leyline of the Void. These are you chances of drawing them:
First hand: 39.95% ([1-[(56/60)(55/59)(54/58)(53/57)(52/56)(51/55)(50/54)]]*100)
First Mulligan: 35.16%
Second Mulligan: 30.06%
Third Mulligan: 24.68%
For every mulligan, the chances of getting the card you want diminishes a lot. You are better off waiting for three turns (or two turns if you go second), since your chances are then 52.77%. Though, if you are a gambler, you'd account the chances from every mulligan. In that case:
First hand: 39.95%
First Mulligan: 75.09% (39.95 + [[1-[(56/60)(55/59)(54/58)(53/57)(52/56)(51/55)]]*100])
Both cases can be made, but I am more conservative with my chances. Relic of Progenitus also allows me to draw, giving me CA which makes up for the fact that it is not a goblin.
Ace/Homebrew, what are you taking out in place of Surgical Extraction? Removals? Also, many people use a variety of Fetchlands. For example, Team America uses Misty Rainforest, Polluted Delta, Underground Sea, and Verdant Catacombs. Taking out one won't affect TA much because they only play with four searchable lands to begin with. On the other hand, TA usually only have two Bayou and two Tropical Island, so if you Wasteland one of them and use Surgical Extraction on the other, they will be in trouble. TA is too greedy with their mana base. I might try it out when I get the chance.
Amon Amarth, the problem with Sparksmith is that you can't control amount of damage it can deal, or the life it will deal to you. Ideally, you want to pummel your opponent with a ton of goblins. In this case, Sparksmith will deal a lot of damage to you (maybe even too much). On the other hand, if you have too little creatures, Sparksmith is less powerful against powerful creatures like Tarmogoyph. I'd rather have another Gempalm. The last time I tried Sparksmith, a Kuldotha Forgemaster deck used Mindslaver on me, made a giant swarm in my field, and killed me with my Sparksmith. It was pretty funny, actually. :D
Vandalize,
Quote:
Lol, 4 life to kill a Piledriver? I'd be very pleased :D
Dismember only works against TA because they run very low threat density.
People had done it already. It is a pretty fair trade. It is better than getting smashed by a 13/2 unblockable beast, sans Mutavault. :wink:
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Jitte which can be dealt with pretty easily (shattering spree is a pretty good option now, since it works perfectly against Equipments and dodge counters like a champ)
Well, this is why I run with Tinkerer. I don't want to rely on luck to destroy an artifact. But yeah, Shattering Spree is great against counters due to replicate.
Quote:
And, as I've stated before, Merfolk has two BIG advantages: Islandwalk and cheap prices (saving Wasteland/FoW). That's why it's popular, and that's why it's effective. I'd say that 70% of Legacy is blue, maybe a close guess?
Overall or competitive? If competitive, it sounds about right.
Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins 2.0
I'm running the full mana disruption package we have plus chrome mox. Surgical Extraction is for fetchlands and wasted duals/manlands as you mentioned above.
I need to be very clear that I would in no way take the following list to an event. I'm testing some things out. Amon Amarth, I think you might find 3 is one too many Chrome Mox. I've tried 1 - 4 of it and getting 2 in your opening hand is bad. That being said I was unhappy with not getting Mox in my opening hand enough.
23 Mana Sources
11 Mountain
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
2 Chrome Mox
2 Simian Spirit Guide
26 Core... err 23
- 1 Goblin Lackey
- 1 Aether Vial
- 1 Goblin Warchief
14 Other
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Warren Instigator
3 Goblin Chieftain
3 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Goblin Tinkerer
I didn't post it originally because I'm committing heresy.
The Spirit Guide will probably be cut to 1 but having the extra is giving me access to 2 mana on turn 1 about as often as I'd like it to. It imprints on Chrome Mox nicely and beats for 2/chump blocks late game. It also allows me to cast my RR creatures without sacrificing my Ports. Well at least in theory...
So far I haven't missed my lackey or vial because I get turn 1 Instigator more regularly.
Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins 2.0
@L10: Basically, the idea is to pay for your removal upfront, and it improves your board position at the same time. After that you get to scale it up pretty fast. I'm not sure how it would deal "too much" damage to you. None of the more popular decks right now play any burn. Bant whatever, Junk, Merfolk, B/W, are all removal light. None of these decks can punish you for playing so aggressively. Would you not play 10 life to kill 3 creatures for very little investment; especially since many of these decks are creature light. I absolutely would.
*This is untested conjecture and I reserve the right to keep my dignity if I'm terribly wrong. :P
Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins 2.0
I'd like to hear how it works =)
It seems good against Fish! As well as anything running Dark Confidant. And it gives an out to Bridge from Below.
Out of curiousity... I don't see Sparksmith in your list. Should Stingscourgers be Sparksmiths?
Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins 2.0
Having instigator instead 1 lackey is soooo wrong.
Lackey is best creature in your deck tbh, mental misstep doesnt make him worse=)
Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins 2.0
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Vandalize
And it's not our fault if you played CounterTop and got crushed by Goblins. Stop trolling our thread.
Please pull your head out of your ass and stop being butthurt that Goblins is a shit deck right now. If Goblins were "fine", they'd show more tournament showings. However, the exact opposite is happening. I'm also aware that CT is also not a good choice right now, but that's off topic. I posted situations that can very easily crop up and you provide no rebuttal. All you posted were ad hominem. If you did something (like read), I did acknowledge that going a mox diamond / Instigator could be a new way to improve this deck.
Regardless, if you continue to attack the person and not the argument, I'll just simply ignore you. Ball is in your court.
Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins 2.0
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ace/Homebrew
@ DragoFireheart - Your posts here started off as excellent questions stated rudely. Decks that can counter our turn 1 and 2 plays and still have a FoW in hand are difficult for ANY deck to deal with
-Zoo does not have a hard time with counters for turn 1/2 plays that have FoW.
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and we need to adapt to that (I personally liked the suggestion to use
Leyline of Lifeforce, unfortunately my local store is out of them). Now you are clearly trolling. Seriously dude, you're a ***. STFU.
Because acting immature yourself when you don't approve of the way I post = constructive posting?
Look, I posted plenty of commonly occurring situations. Merfolk having MMS + another counter to stop our first couple of turns is VERY realistic. They counter either card (vial or lackey) and it screws this deck over a very large amount. We kill slower, can't use our mana denial strat, and they can develop faster than us while keeping mana open for counters. Our creatures are quite expensive, so Daze and other spells will now be a bit hard to play around. Yes, we have Piledriver... but four goblins with Protection from Blue are not gonna suddenly turn around the matchup if they land since they can just use a manland to block it if need be.
Tournament results support exactly what I fear for this deck: it's going to be pushed out of the meta.
http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/l...acy_Opens.html
They showed up mediocre in one tournament and barely showed for another. You can argue what you want, but Goblins is slowly becoming a deck that is less than tier 1. Remember when Legacy first started as 1.5 and people joked around saying "IF you don't have an answer for Lackey turn 1, your deck sucks?" Well guess what? STP or MMS or FoW are 3 first turn answers for Lackey. The very thing that first made this deck a powerful contender is now being ripped out from under it's feet.
Let's look at it from the Goblin player supporters point of view. If people like Vandalize are in fact correct and Goblins is fine... then why is our best matchup showing far better results in the same tournaments we show is? Isn't blue our best matchup? Why did Infect do better than Goblins in the Louisville Legacy Open? Shouldn't Goblins be the foil to Merfolk?
Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins 2.0
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kellyx
Having instigator instead 1 lackey is soooo wrong.
Lackey is best creature in your deck tbh, mental misstep doesnt make him worse=)
No, but it makes sure he doesn't resolve.
Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins 2.0
I love Goblins. I own Mono-Red Goblins, a deck I took pleasure in tricking out with foils and hard-to-find printings. But let's all face facts: the empirical data from the SCG Opens shows that Goblins is not a good choice right now. An overall match win % in the low 40's is not the sign of a tier 1 deck.
That is not to say that your local meta may be different, and Gobbos might be a perfectly fine choice for you individually. I certainly enjoy playing it, but all my results against matchups with Team America (especially featuring Pernicious Deeds), Landstill and Junk all tell me that if any of these top 3 decks are prevalent in your meta, you should not play Goblins. It hurts me to say that, but it is the hard, cold truth.
If the meta turns against these Blue control decks with massive amounts of raw counters and removal, then Goblins may be a strong choice again. Not right now, though.
Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins 2.0
Lets look how much MM has affected our chances of laying a T1 Lackey / Vial. Take what you want out of it.
Before MM, if we went first, the chances our opponent countering a T1 Lackey was 39.95% (assuming four FoW in deck). If we went second, the chances of them countering a T1 Lackey was 65.36% (assuming additional four Daze).
With MM, if we went first, the chances our opponent countering a T1 Lackey is 65.36% (assuming four FoW/MM in deck). If we went second, the chances of them countering a T1 Lackey is 80.84% (assuming additional four Daze).
* method used same as my post above.
Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins 2.0
I rebuilt my Goblins after getting destroyed playing gaylord of atlantis.dec in a local tournament. This is my new list:
4 Aether Vial
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Piledriver
3 Warren Instigator
2 Stingscourger
2 Warren Weirding
1 Vexing Shusher
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Warchief
3 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Ringleader
1 Wort, Boggart Auntie
2 Siege-Gang Commander
4 Wasteland
3 Rishadan Port
4 Badlands
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Auntie's Hovel
7 Mountain
-SB
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
3 Pithing Needle
2 Perish
3 Pyrokinesis
3 Dismember
3 Tormod's Crypt
I feel this build has the tools to fight Merfolks and TA on pure card advantage. You will have games where you have Lackey/Instigator and they don't answer it, this will not happen often! Usually they will have answers to the first two threats you present (first being lackey/vial second instigator/piledriver) but the thing is, they run so little card drawing that after that they will pretty much be in topdeck mode. If you resolve a Ringleader at this point that is a real bomb. This build is more focused on playing controllish, drawing out counters so you can resolve Ringleader. If this doesn't work, you can keep stalling and ultimately go for Wort->Ringleader recursion. The sideboard is built with this plan in mind. Pyrokinesis is still as hot as always vs Fish, and Dismember is absolutely great against Goyf/Tombstalker. Pithing Needle is there to nail Vial if they have it and you don't or Jitte, or Jace against TA.
I would like comments on this. Instead of defying the odds to get a Mox/Instigator opening; think of Instigator as a Duress/Hymn and Ringleader as Fact or Fiction.
Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins 2.0
Quote:
Originally Posted by
GoboLord
GoboLord,
Surprisingly, no one really seems to have wanted to discuss your particular list to any significant extent so far, so I thought I would ask a few questions.
First, the mana. Seems like a pretty standard config for the new Mox setup. I agree that ports seem somehow more lackluster these days, and obviously with the instigators you need more reliable red sources, but have you tested something like 2 ports, or did you just cut from 3/4 to zero? Just curious if a pair of ports were supportable/advantageous. Also, did you ever test with 3 or 4 mox? I've pretty much seen 2 as the standard since the mox tech debuted. I'm curious if that number was just decided upon and stuck, or if you have actually tested different numbers of mox.
Second, your creatures. Wort was usually considered situational/win more/easy to remove before you saw the effect. Last meta's iterations of the deck usually didn't find room for her. Is there something that you find makes her significantly worthwhile right now? Why did you choose to test / keep her in this list?
Most instigator lists use chieftain. In the past, I have always preferred MWM to chieftain, but in the past, I also have not run instigators. Have you tested chieftain vs MWM? Do you find that chieftain are not needed with instigators? What made you choose MWM over chieftain?
Any particular reason you settled on 3 instigators? Many initial adopters of instigator ran 2, and more recently, the trend seems to be a full playset of 4 to go along with the moxen. I'm interested to know where your number came from.
Third, the removal. I usually like at least one WW in my Rb for Progenitus, Iona, random big Goyf or Knight, etc. Did you test WW? What made you settle on the 3 GI / 2 SS split?
Regarding your sideboard, let's talk MM. What matchups do you bring these in against? What do you take out for them, vials? How have they been faring for you? My initial tests found them to be really annoying late game topdecks, although opening with one was pretty awesome if you could stop an opposing MM or a swords on your lackey.
Has your list changed since you posted this? Are you still sold on this list with a 100% certainty on every slot?
One other silver bullet I've been considering lately is Lightning Crafter. With the number of merfolk decks running around, that guy is a complete powerhouse that they pretty much have no answer to game one. Any thoughts on that?
-Talanos
Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins 2.0
@You guys that are adding in Shusher, I think this is a big mistake. Shusher looks good on paper - but he's really, really bad (for reasons I’ve already stated).
At any rate, Gobolord I have to strongly disagree with your contention. While I’m not suggesting that we shelve goblins as a deck, I don’t think blue decks are as favorable as you make them out to be.
I’m not going to get into what the strengths and weaknesses of each blue card that we will face is (we know what they are) because I don’t think that’s the point (at least the one that I’m trying to make).
What I am arguing is that blue decks now have access to plenty of answers to turn 1 lackey or vial, not that MMS is going to destroy us all, rather that MMS in conjunction with the cards they already run is what makes our turn 1 plays much weaker. Thus it doesn’t matter if MMS is in their top 10 cards or not (the same can be argued for vial and in some cases lackey as well)/
Turn 1 lackey is really only strong if you’re going first, However vs. Merfolk (granted this is the only deck I’ve been testing extensively against):
They have curse catcher, FOW, and MMS if we went first (sometimes STP if they splashed white). If they went first they have even more answers in conjunction with the cards I just listed in silvergill adept, lord of Atlantis, and coralhelm commander.
In this particular MU, before MMS lackey was able to do some damage quite a bit, now every time I played him turn 1 he was absolutely useless and I haven’t been able to do anything with him in 15 straight games of testing (went 6-9 vs. merfolk, best of 3s).
With turn 1 vials, we have to worry about FOW, MMS, and spell pierce (haven’t seen too many daze, mostly spell pierce/MMS) if we went first and curse catcher in conjunction with these cards if we didn’t go first.
In 15 straight games I never got a vial to resolve in the first 3 turns.
Mox/Instigator isn't a bad idea, I've been a fan of instigator since he was printed - however the problem with this is that most lists only run 2 chrome moxes and your odds of getting one of them in hand with an instigator is pretty small - so he's not a via-able turn 1 option to rely on as an answer to MMS.
I guess the point I’m trying to make here is that I think this is a step in the right direction; however it’s definitely not going to shift (particularly the merfolk MU) back into our favor.
The reason why I (Random-Guy-No. 123) suggested using leyline of lifeforce is because I feel our turn 1 plays are severely weakened particularly against merfolk (which is gaining a lot of popularity right now – which is why I’ve been testing against it) and I think that lackey/vial isn’t going to get us there alone.
I think that by switching up vials for leyline of lifeforce games 2 and 3, this will help make our threat cards much more effective than vial will. Granted I have yet to test this, but I don’t think it’s a far leap to think that this card can be more effective than vial in games 2 & 3 given the current meta.
Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins 2.0
"Nick Patnode was perfect with Goblins -- a deck that has been a dominant force throughout the history of Legacy Grand Prix -- and featured the prime targets of Mental Missteps ire -- Vial and Lackey."
Good performer at day one at GP Providence according to Wizards event coverage. Lets hope for deck list.
Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins 2.0
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Honorik
"Nick Patnode was perfect with Goblins -- a deck that has been a dominant force throughout the history of Legacy Grand Prix -- and featured the prime targets of Mental Missteps ire -- Vial and Lackey."
Good performer at day one at GP Providence according to Wizards event coverage. Lets hope for deck list.
Woot!
Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins 2.0
This may be an odd suggestion, but IŽll just give it anyways.
If Mental Misstep is slowing down the format badly by dealing with our dreaded combo matchup and taking out lackeys and vials, we may need a better endgame plan.
Currently, if our Lackey or Vial gets countered we need to rely on resolving a Ringleader to get our deck back in action. Even if we resolve a Siege-Gang Commander, any deck that managed to deal with our early plays won't have too much trouble cleaning up the SGC before he comes close to lethal damage.
Kiki-Jiki is not worth more as a lone goblin than SGC is. And Matron + Piledriver isn't going to win the game either.
I suggest playing Patriarch's Bidding again, perhaps with Cabal Therapy.
Merfolks typically runs out of counterspells at some point for lack of carddrawing power.
TA doesn't really lack that much carddrawing power since they play Jace TMS, but they don't have all that many blue spells, which you may be able to take out with Cabal Therapy (Yeah I know its a 1 mana cost spell, but if you have Bidding you can always sacrifice that lone goblin to recast it if countered). Hymn can ofcourse take out your Bidding, but if it doesn't you'll recover pretty dramatically.
Against combo decks the Cabal Therapy is always good to have, the bidding not so much.
Against creature decks Bidding is awesome (Yeah they get back creatures too, but you'll probably have more, and yours have haste).
Landstill will probably still be a problem due to the amount of carddraw and counters.
Don't get me wrong, Patriarch's Bidding is not the answer to everything, but unlike any other card in the deck, it can win the game for you on the spot.
Now how to make room for a few biddings (maybe 2, + more in the board?) and cabal therapy... I don't know yet. I haven't done any testing, but it seems like a nice idea.
Oh and you can have some funky plays, like: Cabal Therapy flashback on yourself to discard the SGC and then Bidding rightaway if you need the tempo.
Feel free to burn my idea with arguments, but do consider it.
