[Deck] Painter-Stone

Alright, I'm still looking towards building Painter's Stone, but specifically a (looks up the Apocalypse-volvers) Imperial Raka list with a five-card Bomberman as a back-up combo. The goal with the back-up is to assemble the Painter's Stone combo as normal, then mill myself to put all five Bomberman pieces into my yard. Use Unburial Rites to return Auriok Salvagers, start generating infinite mana with LED, then proceed to use Conjurer's Bauble once to effectively return Laboratory Maniac to my hand, cast Laboratory Maniac, then use Conjurer's Bauble one more time to draw nothing and win via Laboratory Maniac's replacement effect.

My issue however is that 3-mana to activate grind stone followed by an additional 4-mana to flashback Unburial Rites on the same turn is probably too little too late against what the back-up is aiming to fight--the original Eldrazi Titans in Enchantress, Show-and-Tell decks, 12-post, Eldrazi Stompy, Four Horsemen, etc. Also, opting for the Pyrite Spellbomb route still prevents me from winning against Leyline of Sanctity while still presenting the same problem of how to return Auriok Salvagers to the battlefield.

Any suggestions? Only two things I can thing of are Goblin Welder with God-Pharoh's Gift, and Dread Return with 3x Narcomoeba: the former requires Goblin Welder to be active, and the later requires and extra three slots dedicated to a back-up plan.

4 Painter's Servant
4 Grindstone
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Auriok Salvagers
1 Conjurer's Bauble
1 Laboratory Maniac
1 Unburial Rites
4 Imperial Recruiter
3 Goblin Welder
1 Trinket Mage
4 Force of Will
3 Pyroblast
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
1 Academy Ruins
1 Volcanic Island
1 Tundra
1 Plateau
1 Arid Mesa
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Flooded Strand
1 Plains
2 Mountain
4 Island

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Originally Posted by EpicLevelCommoner

Alright, I'm still looking towards building Painter's Stone, but specifically a (looks up the Apocalypse-volvers) Imperial Raka list with a five-card Bomberman as a back-up combo. The goal with the back-up is to assemble the Painter's Stone combo as normal, then mill myself to put all five Bomberman pieces into my yard. Use Unburial Rites to return Auriok Salvagers, start generating infinite mana with LED, then proceed to use Conjurer's Bauble once to effectively return Laboratory Maniac to my hand, cast Laboratory Maniac, then use Conjurer's Bauble one more time to draw nothing and win via Laboratory Maniac's replacement effect.

My issue however is that 3-mana to activate grind stone followed by an additional 4-mana to flashback Unburial Rites on the same turn is probably too little too late against what the back-up is aiming to fight--the original Eldrazi Titans in Enchantress, Show-and-Tell decks, 12-post, Eldrazi Stompy, Four Horsemen, etc. Also, opting for the Pyrite Spellbomb route still prevents me from winning against Leyline of Sanctity while still presenting the same problem of how to return Auriok Salvagers to the battlefield.

Any suggestions? Only two things I can thing of are Goblin Welder with God-Pharoh's Gift, and Dread Return with 3x Narcomoeba: the former requires Goblin Welder to be active, and the later requires and extra three slots dedicated to a back-up plan.

4 Painter's Servant
4 Grindstone
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Auriok Salvagers
1 Conjurer's Bauble
1 Laboratory Maniac
1 Unburial Rites
4 Imperial Recruiter
3 Goblin Welder
1 Trinket Mage
4 Force of Will
3 Pyroblast
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
1 Academy Ruins
1 Volcanic Island
1 Tundra
1 Plateau
1 Arid Mesa
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Flooded Strand
1 Plains
2 Mountain
4 Island

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This seems like a tall order. Having said that, you could have a one-of that shuffles back into your deck (like Progenitus) and grindstone yourself end-of-turn, untap, draw the progenitus and then have the mana to do what you need to do. You could also try playing recurring nightmare but it would obviously have to be in play and not in the graveyard and you would have to play black. I don't think though that I would worry that much about leyline. You can always blast the leyline and it really isn't seeing that much play. If I were you I would probably go with the the pyrite spellbomb plan as pyrites are decent on their own to remove troublesome creatures. Also realize that if you have enough mana and multiple grindstones or welders, you can grindstone yourself, then grindstone your opponent and have a tormod's crypt or nihil spellbomb or something to weld in in response to the eldrazi shuffle, activate the crypt and clear the graveyard in response to the eldrazi trigger. I've done that several times.

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Originally Posted by drude1

This seems like a tall order. Having said that, you could have a one-of that shuffles back into your deck (like Progenitus) and grindstone yourself end-of-turn, untap, draw the progenitus and then have the mana to do what you need to do. You could also try playing recurring nightmare but it would obviously have to be in play and not in the graveyard and you would have to play black. I don't think though that I would worry that much about leyline. You can always blast the leyline and it really isn't seeing that much play. If I were you I would probably go with the the pyrite spellbomb plan as pyrites are decent on their own to remove troublesome creatures. Also realize that if you have enough mana and multiple grindstones or welders, you can grindstone yourself, then grindstone your opponent and have a tormod's crypt or nihil spellbomb or something to weld in in response to the eldrazi shuffle, activate the crypt and clear the graveyard in response to the eldrazi trigger. I've done that several times.

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Hmm ... true (particularly with the Tormod's Crypt bit; that would save me a lot of hoop-jumping).

I like Progenitus because in a worst-case scenario it can be pitched to Force of Will.

Also, just realized with infinite mana and basically my entire library going into my graveyard then my hand with infinite Bauble activations means I establish a win via the combat step over any number of turns as long as I abuse Pyroblast and Cyclonic Rift (note: that one is mostly there for any 'haha all my permanents have hexproof' shenanigans that may crop up, such as double Sterling Grove if that is still ran). Therefore, Laboratory Maniac easily gets cut.

Also Pt. II, Unburial Rites synergizes well with LED, allowing me to dump anything that is stuck in my hand into the graveyard, including Proggy, Salvagers, and Rites itself while allowing me to combo off this way with only three mana from lands (which, incidentally, is what I need to combo off with the main combo to get to this point).

It's going to be a good year or so before I can build this, so A) there may be more support and B) the meta will undoubtedly shift a good deal by then. But as janky as that four-card package may be, I'm going to just absolutey enjoy dominating the one game out of maybe a hundred I pull this off before I move it completely to the sideboard (perhaps in favor of Swords to Plowshares?)

Only thing I'm not sure on is the blue count for Force of Will: outside of Painter's Servant on the battlefield, I would only have 20 blue cards.

4 Painter's Servant
4 Grindstone
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Auriok Salvagers
1 Conjurer's Bauble
1 Nexus of Fate
1 Unburial Rites
2 Imperial Recruiter
3 Goblin Welder
2 Trinket Mage
4 Force of Will
3 Pyroblast
1 Cyclonic Rift
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Intuition
2 Academy Ruins
2 Volcanic Island
1 Tundra
1 Plateau
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Flooded Strand
1 Mountain
1 Island
4 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors

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Originally Posted by EpicLevelCommoner

Hmm ... true (particularly with the Tormod's Crypt bit; that would save me a lot of hoop-jumping).

I like Progenitus because in a worst-case scenario it can be pitched to Force of Will.

Also, just realized with infinite mana and basically my entire library going into my graveyard then my hand with infinite Bauble activations means I establish a win via the combat step over any number of turns as long as I abuse Pyroblast and Cyclonic Rift (note: that one is mostly there for any 'haha all my permanents have hexproof' shenanigans that may crop up, such as double Sterling Grove if that is still ran). Therefore, Laboratory Maniac easily gets cut.

Also Pt. II, Unburial Rites synergizes well with LED, allowing me to dump anything that is stuck in my hand into the graveyard, including Proggy, Salvagers, and Rites itself while allowing me to combo off this way with only three mana from lands (which, incidentally, is what I need to combo off with the main combo to get to this point).

It's going to be a good year or so before I can build this, so A) there may be more support and B) the meta will undoubtedly shift a good deal by then. But as janky as that four-card package may be, I'm going to just absolutey enjoy dominating the one game out of maybe a hundred I pull this off before I move it completely to the sideboard (perhaps in favor of Swords to Plowshares?)

Only thing I'm not sure on is the blue count for Force of Will: outside of Painter's Servant on the battlefield, I would only have 20 blue cards.

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As cool an idea as this is, I'm a little confused about what you gain by doing this. If you're that worried about Sneak and Show/Big Eldrazi, you can easily run graveyard hate. You can even get away with running a singleton Relic of Progenitus in the maindeck.

Assembling the combo to mill yourself and then win in a convoluted and disruptable way seems a little odd to me.

20 blue cards for Force should be fine, though.

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Originally Posted by CptHaddock

What? All painter decks are combo focused...

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The distinction combo/stompy just refers to the fact that some decks have stompy elements where others do not. Think of it as 'pure combo' vs. 'combo+stompy'.

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Originally Posted by jasper

As cool an idea as this is, I'm a little confused about what you gain by doing this. If you're that worried about Sneak and Show/Big Eldrazi, you can easily run graveyard hate. You can even get away with running a singleton Relic of Progenitus in the maindeck.

Assembling the combo to mill yourself and then win in a convoluted and disruptable way seems a little odd to me.

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Originally Posted by EpicLevelCommoner

Hmm ... true (particularly with the Tormod's Crypt bit; that would save me a lot of hoop-jumping).

. . .

It's going to be a good year or so before I can build this, so A) there may be more support and B) the meta will undoubtedly shift a good deal by then. But as janky as that four-card package may be, I'm going to just absolutey enjoy dominating the one game out of maybe a hundred I pull this off before I move it completely to the sideboard (perhaps in favor of Swords to Plowshares?)

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Paraphrased quotes from both myself and Jasper for clarity; really what I'm most worried about is Enchantress/Solitaire, but that may very well be an unfounded fear, and Tormod's Crypt easily takes care of Eldrazi Titans while just waiting an extra turn would normally suffice against Natural Order into Progenitus or some shenanigans with Darksteel and Blightsteel Colossi. In hindsight, there is nothing to gain with those four cards (five if you include Cyclonic Rift, though I'm liking that more as an ace-in-the-hole should I need to reset their side of the board) from a tournament perspective except some wtf reactions though; my first instinct if I wanted to take this to something higher than the local level would be to just replace Salvagers, Rites, and Bauble with Swords to Plowshares while Nexus and Rift get replaced for more cantrips (most likely Preordain), maybe a singleton Gamble or Whir of Invention if I feel inclined.

@ELC: I'm also confused by this. I'm not sure what your actual alt win con is in your list and I'm confused by your "multiple attack steps" comment. It's not like the bauble gives you multiple consecutive turns. And you only get to use the unburial rites once no matter what as it is exiled after you flash it back. As for the solidarity matchup, I don't know if I've ever lost a match to that deck with painter. Just save your blasts and FoW for the important stuff. It's also like a 1/100 deck in the field these days. Although you might have someone who is on it locally I guess. If you are that worried about it, you are playing white. Just play 1-2 copies of cleanfall in your board.

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What is the point in even preparing for decks that haven't been relevant since like 2010? Imo the problem with the bomberman plan is that it's the vulnerable to the same things that the painter plan is vulnerable to. Surgical is a commonly played card especially since BR reanimator is a deck, people are keeping their removal spells in and will probably bring in more if they have it postboard, and you can randomly be blown out by artifact hate. Bomberman's mentor plan makes sense since it's effectively attacking from another angle that naturally fits into the deck so you won't end up in these situations where you have 2/3rd of the bomberman combo and then a grindstone.

I think that people get too cute about alternative win conditions, really alt win conditions should provide you a way to win while still supporting your primary game plan. The best "alternative" win conditions for this archetype are probably walkers or something along the lines of wurmcoil against tempo decks. Both somewhat invalidate a bunch of removal and synergize well with what painter is doing anyways. Game 1 the best thing to do against random Eldrazi (or other shufflers) playing decks is just comboing off. Most lists are playing some amount of cantrips, and then tutors like intuition, transmute and whirl so it's not that unreasonable to cycle through your deck to find your piece of yard hate and if you don't have those there is always the classic grindstone yourself + welder combo. Sometimes you can't find it, or lose because your opponent was just playing random cards.

If there is a lot of shuffling effects in your area I would actually just say play another deck.

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Originally Posted by drude1

@ELC: I'm also confused by this. I'm not sure what your actual alt win con is in your list and I'm confused by your "multiple attack steps" comment. It's not like the bauble gives you multiple consecutive turns. And you only get to use the unburial rites once no matter what as it is exiled after you flash it back. As for the solidarity matchup, I don't know if I've ever lost a match to that deck with painter. Just save your blasts and FoW for the important stuff. It's also like a 1/100 deck in the field these days. Although you might have someone who is on it locally I guess. If you are that worried about it, you are playing white. Just play 1-2 copies of cleanfall in your board.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

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Originally Posted by CptHaddock

What is the point in even preparing for decks that haven't been relevant since like 2010? Imo the problem with the bomberman plan is that it's the vulnerable to the same things that the painter plan is vulnerable to. Surgical is a commonly played card especially since BR reanimator is a deck, people are keeping their removal spells in and will probably bring in more if they have it postboard, and you can randomly be blown out by artifact hate. Bomberman's mentor plan makes sense since it's effectively attacking from another angle that naturally fits into the deck so you won't end up in these situations where you have 2/3rd of the bomberman combo and then a grindstone.

I think that people get too cute about alternative win conditions, really alt win conditions should provide you a way to win while still supporting your primary game plan. The best "alternative" win conditions for this archetype are probably walkers or something along the lines of wurmcoil against tempo decks. Both somewhat invalidate a bunch of removal and synergize well with what painter is doing anyways. Game 1 the best thing to do against random Eldrazi (or other shufflers) playing decks is just comboing off. Most lists are playing some amount of cantrips, and then tutors like intuition, transmute and whirl so it's not that unreasonable to cycle through your deck to find your piece of yard hate and if you don't have those there is always the classic grindstone yourself + welder combo. Sometimes you can't find it, or lose because your opponent was just playing random cards.

If there is a lot of shuffling effects in your area I would actually just say play another deck.

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Originally Posted by EpicLevelCommoner

Paraphrased quotes from both myself and Jasper for clarity; really what I'm most worried about is Enchantress/Solitaire, but that may very well be an unfounded fear, and Tormod's Crypt easily takes care of Eldrazi Titans while just waiting an extra turn would normally suffice against Natural Order into Progenitus or some shenanigans with Darksteel and Blightsteel Colossi. In hindsight, there is nothing to gain with those four cards (five if you include Cyclonic Rift, though I'm liking that more as an ace-in-the-hole should I need to reset their side of the board) from a tournament perspective except some wtf reactions though; my first instinct if I wanted to take this to something higher than the local level would be to just replace Salvagers, Rites, and Bauble with Swords to Plowshares while Nexus and Rift get replaced for more cantrips (most likely Preordain), maybe a singleton Gamble or Whir of Invention if I feel inclined.

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Quoting the three of us, just for reference:

1. It was a cute idea, nothing more; CptHaddock is more likely than not right in that Walkers or Wurmcoil is the way to go; I was mostly banking on using Painter's Stone as both the primary combo as well as an engine to get the secondary combo started, but once again, too cute for its own good.

2. For the record, for those that might be interested in this in whatever format or deck (not this one since I'm dropping this idea now), the sequence would be as follows:
--Assemble Painter's Combo with three mana from lands and either an active Welder or LED ready.
--Activate Grindstone (w/o using LED) targeting self, dumping Nexus of Fate into the library via replacement effects and the rest of the library into the graveyard, including LED (if it isn't ready), Rites, Salvagers, and Bauble.
--Get LED back by sacrificing Grindstone to Welder if needed before cracking LED for WWW.
--Pay 3W to flashback Rites for Salvager, then generate infinite mana by doing bomberman things.
--From here, you can go grab bauble and place your entire graveyard into your library and then your library into your hand, which enable infinite recursion of any spell that isn't exiled (including nonland permanents via Pyroblast destroying your own permanents). This also means that you can have a full grip of blasts and fows against an empty board. NOTE: Obviously, this is win-more
--To top it off, Nexus of Fate can be cast indefinitely as it will be the only card in your library as long as it hits the graveyard, meaning infinite turns for you. NOTE: Again, for emphasis that I am sorry I even brought this up, this is win-more

3. Anyhow, like I said before, without this convoluted contingency plan, what are some good options for back-up plans/additional control?

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Originally Posted by felipe_tardoqui

I'm playing with the list below. I am currently 13-1, but only games before the ban.
Change I think of doing, is to replace 1 Imperial Recruiter for something, I'm not sure what yet, depends on the course of the meta game.

1 Academy Ruins
2 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Badlands
1 Swamp
1 Mountain
1 Island
4 Polluted Delta
3 Scalding Tarn
3 Bloodstained Mire
1 Seat of the Synod

3 Goblin Welder
3 Baleful Strix
2 Painter's Servant
2 Imperial Recruiter
1 Trinket Mage

4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
3 Lightning Bolt
1 Kolaghan's Command
1 Transmute Artifact
2 Pyroblast

2 Search for Azcanta

1 Grindstone
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Smuggler's Copter
1 Ensnaring Bridge

1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
1 Dack Fayden
1 Daretti, Ingenious Iconoclast

Sideboard:
3 Thoughtseize
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Abrade
2 Flusterstorm
1 Spell Pierce
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Meekstone
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Pithing Needle

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I played with my list for the weekend in an IRL tournament (changes: -1 Transmute Artifact +1 Ponder, I don't have Transmute Artifact). Final result 2-2-2.
Below is a short report and soon after some considerations about the performance of the list.

1: Mono Red Prison (2-1).
I lose game 1 for Blood Moon turn 1 (with only a swamp in hand) in turn 1, a Chalice for 1 in turn 2, and one Chandra, the Torch of Defiance on turn 3. Game 2 win with Welder controlling my opponent's artifacts, and using a FoW in Fiery Confluence. Game 3 my made a chalice for 1 turn 1, BMoon turn 2 and chalice for 2 turn 3. Now I have one fetland for Island in turn 2. In my turn 3 I made Dack Fayden, and start diging for something. Find one Recruiter, made recruiter for Tricket Mage, for explosives and use for 0 on chalices. Win this game with a combo, I don't remember exactly how.

2: Mono Red Prison (2-0)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SFPT5Blm5AU&t=69s

3: Miracles (0-1)
Game 1 took about 40 minutes. I believe I lost in a play where I lost a Copter and a Search for Azcanta for an explosive in turn 4. Because then my opponent managed to get many cards in his hand. We both did Jace TMS, but mine could not find good answers, he managed to kill my Jace with a Snapcaster beating for 3 turns. I did not see any Strix in this game either, and I think we ended up with less than 15 cards on the deck. I tried to fight once, on my last shift, but he had Snapcaster for Swords and FoW. Game 2 I was in the lead in the last round of the final five shifts, Azcanta on the table, and a card in hand and my opponent with no cards in hand and only with Lands in play. I think I have a great chance in this game because I have advantage of cards, but we did not have time to finish the game.

4: Lands (0-2)
Game 1 I lost with my opponent doing the 20/20 very fast, and I only managed to find one Strix, without Welders. Game 2 managed to bypass a Punishing Fire and a Loam because it had 2 Nihil in the hand, it took a long time for my opponent to get the combo, and I had a Meekstone on the table. He found a Krosan Grip, which hit the Meekstone and began to attack. At this point I had 2 Strix, 1 Painter, 1 Search for Azcanta and 4 lands, my opponent had some unimportant lands, the Marit Lage and a Tabernacle. At this point I chose to Leave the 2 Strix alive, flip the Azcanta and make a Dack Fayden, to try to find a Welder to regain control of the game. Said and done, I found the Welder, and a Pithing Needle. On his turn he only attacked, and I blocked with a Strix, leaving me only one Strix. On my turn I did the Welder and the Needle for Barbarian Ring, and I got FoW + a blue card in hand, I think a ponder. Here I made a shameful mistake that caused my defeat. In his turn he did Gamble ... And I did not use FoW, because at that very moment only the Punishing Fire came into my head ... When he started to shuffle that I remembered the Krosan Grip, he discarded any terrain, did the Krosan Grip at Strix and won the game. I just lost because a very ugly mistake. Anyway, we would not have time to play a game 3. If I had not been wrong in Game 2, it would have been a draw.

5: Grixis Death Shadow (1-1)
Game 1 did not take long, half normal game, he did 2 Death Shadow, it was 7 life, and I was with 2 Bolts in hand. I did a Daretti + Tezzeret, but he gave top draw on a takedown and won the game. Game 2 managed to control the game very well, with a Bridge + Strix + Copter. My opponent died for Copter, but this game took forever, and it ended 3 minutes before the end of time. We did not play game 3 because it would not give time.

6: Food Chain (with Emrakul) (1-1)
Normal games, I won game 1 in beatdown and it game 2 in beatdown. But it was really long games, especially the first, he won the game 2 in the last round of the final five shifts. Again no time to play the game 3.


Considerations: The deck is extremely fun to play, I liked it a lot, but unfortunately it is really very slow, there are very few effective ways to win the game, I played only in xMage, and there I did not have that problem of time. Conclusion is that in general, it is impossible to have time for a game 3 and I do not play slowly, no opponent complained of slow play, I play with miracles and this deck is much slower than Miracles, and therefore unfortunately the deck tends to draw too much. I think I'm going to have to go back to deckbuilding and try to put in more kill conditions. This really was the only negative of the deck, not having time to play Game 3, because I really enjoyed playing with it. There are lots of cool interactions with Welder (my favorite creature), Painter + Grindstone (my favorite combo), and it's a control deck (my favorite archetype).

@felipe_tardoqui: Your list is quite similar to the one I posted not so long ago, while Deathrite was around. Using different numbers but mostly the same cards, major difference being the Recruiters and some more planeswalkers (to some extent I guess all Grixis Painter lists are similar, but this was more so than usual). So I'm very interested in reading about your experiences and ideas.
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...=1#post1045949

I'm a little bit surprised the planeswalkers don't help you close out games. I'm wondering what could be done to help winning faster (a question I need to ask myself too).
- Copter is a card that may help winning games, so perhaps adding a copy of that? I imagine Recruiter is too slow without the sol lands, I would cut one for the third Copter.
- The Helm+LotV sideboard also helps win quickly, you could try it. Maybe if you truly want to be able to win quickly, you could add it to the maindeck (well, that would be more experimental than most would appreciate). Maybe with a second Transmute maindeck, to power out faster helms enabled by Welder.
- Search for Azcanta seems like a slow way to build incremental advantage, maybe you could change it into 2 Snapcaster Mages, with 3 Lightning bolts (that you play) and going up to 3 Copters you would be able to use Snapcasters to pressure life totals.
- Similarly Tezzeret can win a game quickly, pressuring life totals, while Jace wins slowly.

Well, just some ideas... Actually, the updates I'm making to my list are in another direction, but I keep changing from week to week so not much use going into that, which would be a much bigger discussion anyway.

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Originally Posted by pettdan

@felipe_tardoqui: Your list is quite similar to the one I posted not so long ago, while Deathrite was around. Using different numbers but mostly the same cards, major difference being the Recruiters and some more planeswalkers (to some extent I guess all Grixis Painter lists are similar, but this was more so than usual). So I'm very interested in reading about your experiences and ideas.
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...=1#post1045949

I'm a little bit surprised the planeswalkers don't help you close out games. I'm wondering what could be done to help winning faster (a question I need to ask myself too).
- Copter is a card that may help winning games, so perhaps adding a copy of that? I imagine Recruiter is too slow without the sol lands, I would cut one for the third Copter.
- The Helm+LotV sideboard also helps win quickly, you could try it. Maybe if you truly want to be able to win quickly, you could add it to the maindeck (well, that would be more experimental than most would appreciate). Maybe with a second Transmute maindeck, to power out faster helms enabled by Welder.
- Search for Azcanta seems like a slow way to build incremental advantage, maybe you could change it into 2 Snapcaster Mages, with 3 Lightning bolts (that you play) and going up to 3 Copters you would be able to use Snapcasters to pressure life totals.
- Similarly Tezzeret can win a game quickly, pressuring life totals, while Jace wins slowly.

Well, just some ideas... Actually, the updates I'm making to my list are in another direction, but I keep changing from week to week so not much use going into that, which would be a much bigger discussion anyway.

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Out of curiosity, would you recommend Rest in Peace or Leyline of the Void for Jeskai versions? I can always try for a Enlightened Tutor build if that's the case. (note, I'm actually somewhat concerned with Progenitus in Elves!, if they even still run that, as well as Eldrazi Titans in Sneak and Show and Eldrazi Stompy, hence why I am hesitant about going straight for Tormod's Crypt and such).

Hey EpicLevelCommoner! Ok, I haven't played Jeskai Painter yet, though I'm working on a list, but I'll happily provide my opinion anyway. I'm sure others can join in with their comments too.

I have the impression that Elves currently play Elderscale Wurm, but there is probably some experimentation going on so good to be aware of a possible Progenitus.

You can still use Tormod's Crypt with an Eldrazi/whatever shuffle effect on the stack, I'm not sure why you wouldn't want to use the crypt? Maybe I'm forgetting something. Only the replacement effects from Progenitus and Darksteel Colossus prevent it from entering the graveyard. But even with one of those two in the deck, the opponent's library will end up being 1 card only, which is still pretty useful. So, I think you can safely use Tormod's Crypt, I can't think of a major disadvantage over Rest in Peace [edit: well that would be missing the interaction between Helm and RiP]. I wouldn't play Leyline of the Void in a non-black version. I would try 1-2 Enlightened Tutors in the sideboard, 1-2 Crypts and 0-1 Rest in Peace depending on the amount of Welders in your list. Actually, if you play no Welders, which seems like a shame, Rest in Peace will have quite the effect vs Canadian Threshold so maybe even playing 2 would seem good.

Edit (I think CptHaddock wrote the next post while I was adding this): This question was more complicated than I first thought, at least from my view. The reason that I play Helm+Leyline in black lists is that I sometimes want to play 2-3 Leylines, and 1 Helm is then an easy addition. In white lists, it's a bit more complicated because usually I wouldn't play 2-3 RiP's. Playing 1 Helm and 1 RiP (and probably 1-2 Enlightened Tutors) just makes it a bit unreliable to put that combo together. You also miss the speed of having half of the combo put into play for free. I think you can try it though.

Unless you're playing a full on Helm/RIP deck with the painter combo i'd recommend just playing a crypt/relic in your main and then having the "harder" yard hate in your sideboard. You really only need 1 piece, and a lot of the times it might end up dead so you can shuffle it away. Welder is one of the best cards in the painter archetype and you probably don't want to completely disable him game 1.

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Originally Posted by pettdan

Hey EpicLevelCommoner! Ok, I haven't played Jeskai Painter yet, though I'm working on a list, but I'll happily provide my opinion anyway. I'm sure others can join in with their comments too.

I have the impression that Elves currently play Elderscale Wurm, but there is probably some experimentation going on so good to be aware of a possible Progenitus.

You can still use Tormod's Crypt with an Eldrazi/whatever shuffle effect on the stack, I'm not sure why you wouldn't want to use the crypt? Maybe I'm forgetting something. Only the replacement effects from Progenitus and Darksteel Colossus prevent it from entering the graveyard. But even with one of those two in the deck, the opponent's library will end up being 1 card only, which is still pretty useful. So, I think you can safely use Tormod's Crypt, I can't think of a major disadvantage over Rest in Peace. I wouldn't play Leyline of the Void in a non-black version. I would try 1-2 Enlightened Tutors in the sideboard, 1-2 Crypts and 0-1 Rest in Peace depending on the amount of Welders in your list. Actually, if you play no Welders, which seems like a shame, Rest in Peace will have quite the effect vs Canadian Threshold so maybe even playing 2 would seem good.

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Thanks for the input ^_^; I guess I'm stuck on the philosophy that only the killing blow matters, hence why I'm concerned about Progenitus (it actually was used a while back with Natural Order as an anti-control measure, but it looks like they favor an anti-tempo compliment to Cratehoof now though?). And yes, I agree with that sentiment on not disabling Welder; once it goes active, it becomes pretty difficult for the opponent to win, especially if you also have Painter on the field as well. I just don't want to auto-lose any game 1s; I have enough trouble with that concerning Company decks against Tron in Modern, and why I switched from Nic Fit to Painter despite having built Nic Fit three times over the past five years hehehe (for the record, I love Nic Fit, I just hate its combo matchups).

As an aside, I should really know that their are certain life/library thresholds one should be wary about in any format. Down to 3 life in Modern? You can't fetch for an untapped shock, and you better be wary about Lightning Bolt. Down to 1 life in Legacy? Better hope you already have enough mana to hardcast Force of Will, especially since you can't fetch for anything now.

Anyhow, enough rambling about lessons that should've been learned; here is a tentative list I'm looking at:


4 Painter's Servant
4 Grindstone
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Imperial Recruiter
3 Goblin Welder
1 Trinket Mage
4 Force of Will
3 Pyroblast
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Transmute Artifact
1 Enlightened Tutor
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Saheeli Rai
1 Tormod's Crypt
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Flooded Strand
1 Arid Mesa
2 Volcanic Island
2 Tundra
1 Island
1 Mountain
1 Plains
1 Academy Ruins
3 Ancient Tomb
1 City of Traitors


Really wanting to toy with the numbers for LED and Transmute, as LED can fuel Transmute's additional cost if needed (not mention also be used to activate Grindstone if I Transmute a spare artifact into that). I could probably go for a higher artifact count or at least artifact generators in other color schemes (straight UR with artifact lands and Grixis with Daretti seems the best for that), but I also like the idea of having Enlightened Tutor and Ethersworn Canonist as well. Not to mention the potential for the Modern CopyCat combo from the side with Saheeli Rai (before you ask, both Felidar Guardian and Saheeli Rai have some value by themselves with Welder, Trinket Mage, and Recruiter, and I don't think it's unreasonable to reach 3W with a partially stompy manabase for Guardian; could very well be wrong of course though).

Thoughts? I may have also miscounted the cards as I was trimming numbers.

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Originally Posted by pettdan

@felipe_tardoqui: Your list is quite similar to the one I posted not so long ago, while Deathrite was around. Using different numbers but mostly the same cards, major difference being the Recruiters and some more planeswalkers (to some extent I guess all Grixis Painter lists are similar, but this was more so than usual). So I'm very interested in reading about your experiences and ideas.
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...=1#post1045949

I'm a little bit surprised the planeswalkers don't help you close out games. I'm wondering what could be done to help winning faster (a question I need to ask myself too).
- Copter is a card that may help winning games, so perhaps adding a copy of that? I imagine Recruiter is too slow without the sol lands, I would cut one for the third Copter.
- The Helm+LotV sideboard also helps win quickly, you could try it. Maybe if you truly want to be able to win quickly, you could add it to the maindeck (well, that would be more experimental than most would appreciate). Maybe with a second Transmute maindeck, to power out faster helms enabled by Welder.
- Search for Azcanta seems like a slow way to build incremental advantage, maybe you could change it into 2 Snapcaster Mages, with 3 Lightning bolts (that you play) and going up to 3 Copters you would be able to use Snapcasters to pressure life totals.
- Similarly Tezzeret can win a game quickly, pressuring life totals, while Jace wins slowly.

Well, just some ideas... Actually, the updates I'm making to my list are in another direction, but I keep changing from week to week so not much use going into that, which would be a much bigger discussion anyway.

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Maybe I just draw badly... I draw I think 1 time Jace and 2 times Tezzeret in intire tournament.
I think in replace Fayden or Azcanta for Tezzeret and test again. I replace one Bolt for Abrade, so now I use 2 bolts, 1 abrade and 1 k. command. Maybe new Tezzeret its a good option too, he have a "kill condition" in +1, a good draw engine in 0 and a kill condition in -9. Sadly its 5 manas, but... Maybe I test one.

@EpicLevelCommoner: There's so much to consider and comment on, not sure where to start and what comments are actually motivated. Try the list and see how it goes, that's probably the best advice. But based on my preferences and ideas (I like Bomberman and Copter), here are a few comments. Take this with plenty of grains of salt.

Some notable exclusions are Ensnaring Bridge and artifact removal. I tend to play some number of Abrades, Engineered Explosives, Manic Vandals or some other creatures to answer Chalice, Jitte and Vial that can otherwise often build up too much pressure. Also Null Rod can come in from the sideboard, and having answers to that is great. I would skip the Enlightened Tutor and add an Ensnaring Bridge. You have the two Transmutes to tutor for it, and 8 cantrips.

I haven't played Saheeli yet but I can't see the situations in which she'd be very strong, but I'm all for people trying things. If you want to try Felidar Guardian, consider trying Auriok Salvagers too for the Bomberman combo. Trinket Mage and Recruiter help finding the needed pieces, and they help with the Painter Combo too. Salvagers buys back Grindstone and goes infinite with a LED, which you're playing. To make Salvagers good you need a couple of more artifacts though so I guess it's nothing for your current list, just wanted to remind you of that alternative with the same casting cost. By itself, in the right deck, the Salvagers is not just hanging around waiting for the combo to turn up, he lets you basically draw cards for 2 mana each which is pretty great.

It seems like you aren't really utilizing the sol lands, but what do I know. They are great with Painter, Grindstone and the Recruiters, but I'd like to see more cards making use of that extra mana.
- I'd be tempted to add Copters, works great with sol lands, but your creature count is at 9 so that'd be too low.
- Maybe try a Nahiri, the Harbinger? Plainswalkers feel so much better when you can ramp them out. She can find the Felidar Guardian if you add it. Or Jace he's of course probably better..
- I guess Transmute Artifact may be a bit hard to play. Actually, Trinket Mage may fit better with the Sol Lands, unless you specifically want to tutor for some expensive artifacts (only Painter it would seem). Adding those two gets your creature count closer to having Copter playable.

I can personally never fit 4 StP's in a Painter list, it seems, there are so many sweet synergetic artifacts to try to get in there first. Like for example, a single Jitte can mow down endless armies from the opponent or gain life when that becomes an issue. I'd consider playing a Jitte over the 4th StP, you can also tutor for the Jitte with the Transmutes (4 mana available and opponent tapped out? Transmute, equip and attack) which increases the flexibilty of the deck (1 Jitte = 3 virtual copies of creature removal) while also being able to recur the Jitte with a Welder if needed. And with the sol lands in the deck you could be swinging with an equipped Jitte on t2, that wins a lot of games by itself. On the other hand, you have a low creature count so maybe Jitte isn't so great after all... And StP is a great card.

When playing the StP's, Snapcaster Mage becomes interesting. Being able to play a removal heavy deck, in the matchups where it matters, while also being able to flashback Pyroblasts (which is useful when StP isn't) is pretty great. Would also work great with Copter.

You could consider maindeck Relic of Progenitus over the Tormod's Crypt. I think I might prefer it in the maindeck since you can always sacrifice it to draw a new card, if it's in your starting hand you can probably blow it up before too much artifacts are lost that Welder wants to play with. Also, if you draw excessive artifacts you can user Welder and Relic to trade them in for fresh, new cards. Giving Welder the looting ability can be pretty nice.

AngryBacon had a sweet list which focused on comboing quicker posted on the Discord, have a look at it and see if you can use it for inspiration for a Jeskai list. It focuses more on LED+Transmute and it's a very interesting list.

Thanks, I think I have a new direction to go with this based on your advice (notably Bomberman, grave-hate, and creature count) although one with a very greedy mana base. Thoughts are still welcome however;

Grixis-Splash-White Painter's Stone (Heavy Control Element)

4 Scalding Tarn
4 Polluted Delta
2 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Tundra
1 Island
1 Mountain
1 Swamp
2 Seat of the Synod
1 Academy Ruins

1 Lotus Petal

4 Painter's Servant
3 Goblin Welder
3 Snapcaster Mage
1 Auriok Salvagers

3 Smuggler's Copter
1 Daretti, Ingenious Iconoclast

4 Grindstone
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Ensnaring Bridge

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
1 Transmute Artifact

4 Force of Will
3 Pyroblast
2 Kolaghan's Command


I will be attempting to try this at my LGS's proxy Legacy tournament next Tuesday before I actually invest in the auxiliary elements, but this looks like it covers my creature count for Copter with Daretti 2.0's +1, my removal suite with Kommand and Daretti 2.0's -1, alternative win-condition (or rather the same win-condition backed by the inevitability of infinite mana and/or infinite draw) with a 3-card Bomberman package, great recursive value with Welder, Ruins, Kommand, and Salvagers, and a a cantrip/looter/transmute suite designed for use with LED. Only apparent issue I have currently (outside of the 'how to sideboard' problem I have in all formats) is the mana base; I'd like to add more Mox Opals or Lotus Petals somehow.

My apologies for the double post, but I wanted to get some last minute feedback on a newer rendition of the previous list:

4 Scalding Tarn
2 Volcanic Island
1 Island
1 Mountain
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors

4 Painter's Servant
3 Goblin Welder
2 Imperial Recruiter
2 Trinket Mage
1 Auriok Salvagers

4 Grindstone
3 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Nihil Spellbomb
3 Smuggler's Copter

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Burning Wish

3 Force of Will
3 Pyroblast
2 Abrade

SB: 1 Infernal Tutor
SB: 1 Death Wish
SB: 1 Force of Will
SB: 1 Ensnaring Bridge
SB: 1 Toxic Deluge
SB: 1 Lost Legacy
SB: 1 Containment Priest
SB: 1 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Phyrexian Revoker
SB: 1 Hope of Ghirapur
SB: 5 Mudhole

Idea with so many Burning Wish and Lion's Eye Diamond is to help assemble either combo more reliably while also enabling a turn 2 or turn 3 wishboard if needed; one sequence I think would be particularly spicy would be the following

Turn 1: Ancient Tomb --> Painter's Servant
Turn 2: Mountain --> Lion's Eye Diamond --> Burning Wish [LED in response for BBB] --> Infernal Tutor --> Grindstone
Turn 3: Win via Grindstone activation

Or, if you start with Grindstone but no Painter's Servant

Turn 1: Mountain --> Grindstone
Turn 2: Ancient Tomb --> Lion's Eye Diamond --> Burning Wish [LED in response for BBB] --> Infernal Tutor --> Painter's Servant
Turn 3: Win via Grindstone activation

'Mudhole' is my filler for the rest of my wishboard atm; I have no idea what would be some great mono-colored 3 CMC or less haymaker sorceries that would be great hits off of an LED-fueled Burning Wish, let alone what is worth chaining an LED-fueled Burning Wish into Death Wish that would be Human, Red, Blue, or Colorless and worth waiting until turn 3 at the earliest to use. (btw, utilizing Bomberman's Stompy's mana base to help cast all of this seems good). Any advice would be appreciated.

On second thought, Death Wish is probably a bad idea outside of game 1 hedging.

Game against Mono Red Prison with my grinding list.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SFPT5Blm5AU&t=69s

Not sure which Painter thread is the right one, but anyone with any idea why Brian Durkin's Mono-U List is running Darkslick Shores, over, say Underground Seas? Is it to avoid Choke?