Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
@Climax
I love your list, i'm a MUD player of the Kuldotha list (no Welder) but i would like to try new ways of building the deck; i have some questions for you:
- i own all the cards of your list except Batterskulls (price manageable) and Rishadan Ports (quite expensive); if i replace Battleskulls with Phyrexian Revoker/Trinisphere and Rishadan Port with Crystal Vein the deck will change drastically? is the mana denial so important in this kind of list? the Kuldotha list just run 4 Wastelands
- Why Trinisphere in the sideboard? i run 3 in my Kuldotha list and i absolutely love it against 90% of the decks i play
- the worst problem of MUD imho is that sometimes the deck just starts to do what he wants and you will only get horrible hands and crappy topdecks no matter what; do you think your list helps to mitigate this problem?
Enought for now, i'll wait for your report to understand more how to play this kind of list
Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Samsunait
@Climax
I love your list, i'm a MUD player of the Kuldotha list (no Welder) but i would like to try new ways of building the deck; i have some questions for you:
- i own all the cards of your list except Batterskulls (price manageable) and Rishadan Ports (quite expensive); if i replace Battleskulls with Phyrexian Revoker/Trinisphere and Rishadan Port with Crystal Vein the deck will change drastically? is the mana denial so important in this kind of list? the Kuldotha list just run 4 Wastelands
- Why Trinisphere in the sideboard? i run 3 in my Kuldotha list and i absolutely love it against 90% of the decks i play
- the worst problem of MUD imho is that sometimes the deck just starts to do what he wants and you will only get horrible hands and crappy topdecks no matter what; do you think your list helps to mitigate this problem?
Enought for now, i'll wait for your report to understand more how to play this kind of list
It's doable to swap the Batterskulls for Revokers but you loose one of your most important cards against Control and Aggro that way. Further more it's the second link besides Lodestone Golem between mid- and lategame.
Unfortunately Ports are necessary because Manadenial is what wins your games against Esperblade and Miracles. If you really need a replacement use Mishra's Factory. Theese have a nice synergy with Voltaic Keys at least and should help at the Batterskull problem.
You see, this version is not a lockdown deck. It's a pure and simple Manaramp deck. Therefore i prefer to play my ramp early, instead of cards, which try to lock out the opponent. It has been tried earlier to combine the lockdown and the aggro mode of MUD but so far, no satisfying results have been created.
Therefore I try to be the better aggro deck preboard and Trinisphere is hindering that too much.
(Just think of Ancient Tomb--> Monolith. Land--> Wurmcoil Engine compared to either Ancient Tomb--> Monolith--> Sphere--> Do nothing for the next 2 turns or Ancient Tomb--> Monolith. Land--> Sphere. Land--> Engine)
Also Trinisphere becomes weaker with every Lodestone Golem we play.
Besides that, you loose on threatdensity, which is also very important against control. Cuz they are by lots better at the topdecking game, than we are.
Hope that helps.
Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
I agree with Climax. I think Rishadan Port is integral with the MUD Stompy strategy. It stalls the opponent in the early game as we try to ramp up. It gives a late game soft lock once we have a tank out, especially combined with Thran Dynamo. A full set of Thran Dynamo is needed because it is our most stable form of ramp. Thran Dynamo and Rishadan Port has been consistently good for me.
In my opinion, this is the core of MUD Stompy:
Lands (22-23)
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
4 Mishra's Factory
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
2-3 Buried Ruin / Dust Bowl
Tanks (8)
4 Wurmcoil Engine
4 Lodestone Golem
Ramps (11)
4 Thran Dynamo
4 Grim Monolith
3 Metalworker
Tools (7)
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Voltaic Key
Flex (11-12)
X Sundering Titan
X Steel Hellkite
X Razormane Masticore
X Platinum Emperion
X Phyrexian Revoker
X Karn Liberated
X Crucible of Worlds
X Batterskull
X All is Dust
By the way, once I brought in Sword of Vengeance as a 1-off, purely as a joke. Also because we were having the discussion in this thread regarding other useful equipment, outside of Jitte, Batterskull, SoFI, and SoLS. But it actually worked out really good with all the creatures. It made Lodestone Golem much harder to trade against and makes Wurmcoil Engine an absolute monster due to the interactions of First Strike + Deathtouch and Trample + Deathtouch. It is not necessary by any means but it is effective when you want to finish your opponent off or want to kill a protected Planeswalker.
Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
I'm curious about Thran Dynamo. I've never tested it, as it seems very slow to me. You're banking on it doing something next turn. It's great that it untaps for free but I don't know if its worth the slots (my list is pretty tight as it is). What do you guys think? Does it solve the consistency problems this deck often seems to have? I've found MUD to be a fairly unforgiving beast, as it's very easy to get a poor hand full of stuff you couldn't play before your opponent kills you. Still, when the deck works, it's fun.
I don't have rishidan ports so I run the forgemaster variant. The artifact lands are necessary fodder for forgemaster and welder so you can't really run ports anyway.
One of the things I don't understand is how people can only play 20 lands. Sure the deck has metalworker and grim monolith for fast starts, but I've found consistently making your land drops is really important if you want to be able to cast your big spells. If they swords your metalworker or otherwise remove it you'll be looking pretty silly with a hand clogged full of high CMC artifacts and not much land. I also think having 23 lands helps to mitigate the problem this deck has with bad mulligans. Nothing sucks worse than going down to 5 or 6 and only seeing one land.
Here's my list:
Lands (23)
4 Wasteland
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cavern of Souls
3 Darksteel Citadel
4 Great Furnace
Creatures (21)
1 Sundering Titan
1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Myr Battlesphere
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Wurmcoil Engine
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Metalworker
4 Goblin Welder
Artifacts (16)
4 Grim Monolith
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Voltaic Key
1 Staff of Domination
1 Staff of Nin
1 Spine of Ish Sah
2 Lightning Greaves
1 Mox Opal
Sideboard:
4 Trinisphere
4 Tormod's Crypt
2 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Duplicant
1 Platinum Angel (Probably should be Platinum Emperion)
2 Phyrexian Revoker
1 All is Dust
I'm glad metalworker seems to be winning more these days, it gives the deck a bit more credibility.
Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
kingtk3
I think that relying on metalworker (and thus bait his counters on something else) is not good against a deck that plays 6 ways to remove it and many cantrips.
Your best plays against canadian are chalice of the void@1 and any taxing effect as soon as possible in order to prevent their cantrip and to stop their Tempo plan. Obviously if you lay a Wurmcoil engine they have no way to remove it unless the use multiple cards, and if they don't they just loose.
In your situation I would have bait the opponent with metalworker in order to lay trinisphere or golem (possibly playing around daze), and I would have keep the monolith for the wurmcoil.
I was sure I miss played that whole match, this plan sounds really good, the metalworker is a lightning rod once its out and if i can land the trini/chalice fast he could be worth dropping. but not until hes protected. playing around daze and baiting FOW and baiting with metalworker seems right to me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
lilevo
I only played the RUG Delver match a handful of times but for what I see playing around their counterspells only works against the not super aggressive hands, if they have delver on t1 and let's say a FoW and Daze in hand I think you should be thinking about naming wurm for cavern of souls and hopefully you will draw one the other way is a lightning greaves on pretty much anything.
I wish I could say that, but I know of four ppl piloting RUG delver at my shop so I play it all the time. I have been playing MUD every weekend since 09/2012 and I'm getting tired of it. This week I'm finishing nic fit and probably going to play it next time, just so i can change things up a little.
Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
My current list that I played at a small tourney at a friends house (about 8 people), I came in 2nd losing to reanimator.
Land/Accel
4x Dark Steel Citadel
4x Ancient Tomb
4x City Of Traitors
4x Cavern Of Souls
2x Wasteland
4x Crystal Vein
Utility Stuff
2x Voltaic Key
2x Lightning Grieves
Extra Ramp
2x Mox Diamond
4x Grim Monolith
Speed Bumps
4x Chalice Of The Void
2x All Is Dust
Creatures/Speed Bumps/Utility
4x Lodestone Golem
4x Metal Worker
2x Worm Coil Engine
2x Myr Battle Sphere
2x Steel Hell Kite
2x Phyrexian Metamorph
4x Kuldotha Forgemaster
1x Blightsteel Colossus
1x Platinum Emperion
Sideboard
2x Witchbane Orb
4x Trinisphere
4x Tormods Crypt
2x Surgical Extraction
1x All Is Dust
2x Ratchet Bomb
It performed well and will write a report later.
Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
How was Crystal Vein? Was the sacrifice clause to make 2 mana created problems? Would you consider Crucible of Worlds?
What about Mox Diamond? Would you wish that was Thran Dynamo instead?
How was All is Dust?
Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
Anyone found a good solution to the RUG decks postboard?
I'm not as happy with the matchup as I'd like. Sure, we win if we land a Wurmcoil Engine or something, but it's getting to that mana without dying that's always the problem.
I'm currently playing the more Stompy (no Forgemaster) version.
I thought Spheres in theory would be good, but I've been finding them to actually be more restrictive on my mana than on theirs.
Stupid flying bugs!
Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Esper3k
Anyone found a good solution to the RUG decks postboard?
I'm not as happy with the matchup as I'd like. Sure, we win if we land a Wurmcoil Engine or something, but it's getting to that mana without dying that's always the problem.
I'm currently playing the more Stompy (no Forgemaster) version.
I thought Spheres in theory would be good, but I've been finding them to actually be more restrictive on my mana than on theirs.
Stupid flying bugs!
Defense Grid is the card you're lookin for
Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Climax
Defense Grid is the card you're lookin for
Grid and chalice on one turn off the whole deck for 4 mana...
Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
dillonkbase
Grid and chalice on one turn off the whole deck for 4 mana...
Chalice @ 1 is powerful, but very difficult to get down early, especially if you're on the draw. You need to have a Sol Land + Chalice, while they can stop you with Force, Daze, Spell Snare, or Spell Pierce.
RUG also gets Ancient Grudge to deal with it and BUG gets Abrupt Decay.
It's really good, but often times they can get down say a Delver before it comes down (if it even makes it through their countermagic).
Defense Grid sounds good, but I'm hoping I can find something a little less specific.
Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
I have 4 Wurmcoil Engine, 2 Platinum Emperion, and 3 Batterskull to deal with RUG. Once they use up their permission, Platinum Emperion usually seals the deal, assuming they don't have artifact removal. If they do kill Platinum Emperion, hopefully you would be at a board position where that would not matter. Mishra's Factory does a fine job at blocking Mongoose. An early Sphere of Resistance, Trinisphere, Chalice, or Thorn of Amethyst may be enough to stall them out. What is your current list?
Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Esper3k
Anyone found a good solution to the RUG decks postboard?
I'm not as happy with the matchup as I'd like. Sure, we win if we land a Wurmcoil Engine or something, but it's getting to that mana without dying that's always the problem.
I'm currently playing the more Stompy (no Forgemaster) version.
I thought Spheres in theory would be good, but I've been finding them to actually be more restrictive on my mana than on theirs.
Stupid flying bugs!
I also play the stompy version and have never dropped a game to RUG. Weirdly enough, I use the spheres and find them to work out very well post-board. I think this is because I run the full 8pack of Sol lands, plus two Crystal Vein, and will aggressively mulligan until one of the following is in my opener: Chalice of the Void, Trinisphere, Sphere of Resistance, Thorn of Amethyst or a Speedy Lodestone. So, usually I'm getting a T1 sphere effect out there, often with a second incase the first gets countered. I'll also up my Batterskull count in the matchup in order to up the lifelinkers making racing more difficult for the RUG player. Usually I find that if my T1 sphere effect is countered, it's not such a big deal because then they can't counter a Turn 2 fatty.
Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
L10
I have 4 Wurmcoil Engine, 2 Platinum Emperion, and 3 Batterskull to deal with RUG. Once they use up their permission, Platinum Emperion usually seals the deal, assuming they don't have artifact removal. If they do kill Platinum Emperion, hopefully you would be at a board position where that would not matter. Mishra's Factory does a fine job at blocking Mongoose. An early Sphere of Resistance, Trinisphere, Chalice, or Thorn of Amethyst may be enough to stall them out. What is your current list?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Cross Game
I also play the stompy version and have never dropped a game to RUG. Weirdly enough, I use the spheres and find them to work out very well post-board. I think this is because I run the full 8pack of Sol lands, plus two Crystal Vein, and will aggressively mulligan until one of the following is in my opener: Chalice of the Void, Trinisphere, Sphere of Resistance, Thorn of Amethyst or a Speedy Lodestone. So, usually I'm getting a T1 sphere effect out there, often with a second incase the first gets countered. I'll also up my Batterskull count in the matchup in order to up the lifelinkers making racing more difficult for the RUG player. Usually I find that if my T1 sphere effect is countered, it's not such a big deal because then they can't counter a Turn 2 fatty.
Yeah again, Wurmcoils, Platinum Emperions, Batterskulls are mostly all great if you can get one down, but the problem I've always been having is getting to enough mana to do it. A good RUG player counters our mana stones and prevents us from getting to enough mana to cast our bombs alltogether.
Here's my current list (credit goes to Zirath because it's pretty much his list card for card with a few minor tweaks):
// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)
// Lands
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
4 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (1)
3 [M12] Buried Ruin
4 [MM] Rishadan Port
4 [MPR] Wasteland
4 [EX] City of Traitors
// Creatures
4 [SOM] Wurmcoil Engine
4 [MBS] Phyrexian Revoker
4 [WWK] Lodestone Golem
3 [UD] Metalworker
1 [ARE] Karn, Silver Golem
// Spells
4 [UL] Grim Monolith
1 [10E] Crucible of Worlds
2 [NPH] Karn Liberated
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
3 [M11] Voltaic Key
4 [ARC] Thran Dynamo
2 [NPH] Batterskull
1 [ROE] All Is Dust
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [10E] Crucible of Worlds
SB: 1 [NPH] Karn Liberated
SB: 1 [ROE] All Is Dust
SB: 4 [EX] Sphere of Resistance
SB: 3 [US] Smokestack
SB: 2 [MI] Cursed Totem
SB: 2 [SOM] Platinum Emperion
SB: 1 [US] Karn, Silver Golem
My considerations right now is to decide if I want to board -4 Revoker into:
+4 Sphere of Resistance
-2 Karn, Liberated
+1 All is Dust
+1 Crucible of Worlds
or
+1 Crucible of Worlds
+1 All is Dust
+2 Platinum Emperion
Again, while Sphere sounds good in theory, especially on the play, I've been finding that in practice, they have been hurting me more than them since it make getting our mana stones down even harder. If they get down a single attacker before our Sphere comes down, Daze and Spell Pierce become even larger problems for us since they can just sit and leave 1-2 mana open (respectively) and pretty much turn those two spells into hard counters under a Sphere.
Currently, I also tend to leave in Voltaic Key because even though they're a blue deck with countermagic, I think getting access to our big mana is the only way we can win the matchup.
Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
How has Karn, Silver Golem been? I always thought he would be interesting as a way to bring a large army in a stalled game.
Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Zirath
How has Karn, Silver Golem been? I always thought he would be interesting as a way to bring a large army in a stalled game.
I'm liking him as a 1 of in my non forgemaster list. In that list I run 3 Thran Dynamo, 2 Batterskull, 4 trinisphere. You need to have enough non creature artifacts to make him worthwhile. Also he's a great chump blocker and gets in for 4 when the board is empty.
Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Esper3k
Yeah again, Wurmcoils, Platinum Emperions, Batterskulls are mostly all great if you can get one down, but the problem I've always been having is getting to enough mana to do it. A good RUG player counters our mana stones and prevents us from getting to enough mana to cast our bombs alltogether.
Again, while Sphere sounds good in theory, especially on the play, I've been finding that in practice, they have been hurting me more than them since it make getting our mana stones down even harder. If they get down a single attacker before our Sphere comes down, Daze and Spell Pierce become even larger problems for us since they can just sit and leave 1-2 mana open (respectively) and pretty much turn those two spells into hard counters under a Sphere.
Currently, I also tend to leave in Voltaic Key because even though they're a blue deck with countermagic, I think getting access to our big mana is the only way we can win the matchup.
I find that many of the RUG players side out Daze against MUD, as usually the deck has decidedly more mana available to it than RUG. In most G2's and G3's I'll also play much more conservatively around the soft counters, and have no problems waiting till T2 to drop a rock so I've daze mana up or pierce mana up. I find that G2 and G3 wasteland and port become even more effective, as you can play them early, and effectively stripmine the RUG player out of the game in an uncounterable fashion. RUG's mana is so tight that I find that often they can't just sit on a single land or two lands because the early sphere effect shuts down their ability to cantrip into one of their 18 lands. There's no doubt that luck of the draw factors into the balance of threats, land, mana that MUD draws into and the amount of counters, threats, and lands the RUG player draws, but in my experience odds come up in favor of MUD. The density of spells that the RUG player must deal with is very high, and then there're the cards that cannot be dealt with via counter magic (Wasteland, Port, Cavern of Souls, Mishra's Factory, Mutavault, Sol Lands).
Voltaic Key is a card that I also rarely pull out of the deck, the tricks that it opens up with Mishra's Factory, crazy acceleration with Dynamo, Worker, Monolith, and Staff on Nin are pretttty sweet.
Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
(nameless one)
How was Crystal Vein? Was the sacrifice clause to make 2 mana created problems? Would you consider Crucible of Worlds?
What about Mox Diamond? Would you wish that was Thran Dynamo instead?
How was All is Dust?
i would have loved crucible in here but I didn't have the card. I sent my play set away to get signed along with my wasteland set. They have been gone for about a month now... I hope I get them back soon. Mox diamond functions awesome but better with the crucible obv. I'm not a huge fan of dynamo. I really really tried to like it, running it as everything from a one of to a set and it just didn't do it for me. Crystal vein will be replaced with wastelands and I will be removing 1x All is Dust 1x Metamorph and 1x either voltaic key, mox diamond, lightning greaves, or ?. I will figure that out when I get my play set back and get to try out all the possible combinations. It takes me a really long time to figure out what is optimal. I used to run crystal vein as a 2 of and will also test more on that but have considered dropping it completely. Also i'm not 100 percent sure I want to drop one of the a.i.d.'s (lol) because it saved me from losing soooooo many games as a top deck. In my opinion it is one of the most undervalued cards in the deck.
Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Zirath
How has Karn, Silver Golem been? I always thought he would be interesting as a way to bring a large army in a stalled game.
He's been... ok. Mainly I'm playing him as an answer to Batterskull/Equipment. He's usually either really good or really meh. I'm going to be testing a pair of Steel Hellkites in the Karn slots next time I play the deck, although it's really funny (at least to me) when you get out both Karn, Silver Golem and Karn Liberated onto the board together (sadly they don't synergize that well together).
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Cross Game
I find that many of the RUG players side out Daze against MUD, as usually the deck has decidedly more mana available to it than RUG. In most G2's and G3's I'll also play much more conservatively around the soft counters, and have no problems waiting till T2 to drop a rock so I've daze mana up or pierce mana up. I find that G2 and G3 wasteland and port become even more effective, as you can play them early, and effectively stripmine the RUG player out of the game in an uncounterable fashion.
Daze is something a blue tempo player should keep in, especially on the play against us. We have the potential to drop scary things on T1 and they'll need every free counter they can to stop us from casting things they care about. Stifle is generally a much worse card for them in this matchup.
On T2, there is no way you can drop a mana rock with Spell Pierce mana unless it's a Grim Monolith or Metalworker off of 2 Sol Lands. It's pretty much impossible to play Thran Dynamo through Spell Pierce early.
I find Wasteland/Port actually less effective against RUG than against other decks. RUG decks these days pretty much only need 1 mana (Tarmogoyf is their only 2 mana spell) to function. If you're spending mana Wasteland/Porting them, you're making their Daze/Spell Pierces even more effective.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Cross Game
RUG's mana is so tight that I find that often they can't just sit on a single land or two lands because the early sphere effect shuts down their ability to cantrip into one of their 18 lands. There's no doubt that luck of the draw factors into the balance of threats, land, mana that MUD draws into and the amount of counters, threats, and lands the RUG player draws, but in my experience odds come up in favor of MUD. The density of spells that the RUG player must deal with is very high, and then there're the cards that cannot be dealt with via counter magic (Wasteland, Port, Cavern of Souls, Mishra's Factory, Mutavault, Sol Lands).
Voltaic Key is a card that I also rarely pull out of the deck, the tricks that it opens up with Mishra's Factory, crazy acceleration with Dynamo, Worker, Monolith, and Staff on Nin are pretttty sweet.
An early sphere effect that comes down before they can cast anything relevant is indeed powerful against RUG. However, my experience has been that usually they will be able to drop a threat or two before it comes down and then they can hold mana up to counter our relevant spells. In that case, our own Spheres actually hurt us more than it hurts them. Also, in terms of consistency, RUG is actually probably more consistent than we are since most cards in their deck are fairly redundant then you add in 4 Brainstorm / 4 Ponder to smooth things out. A single Delver can be very lethal for us since we don't usually have any way to deal with it without simply racing it with a Batterskull or Wurmcoil. Delver also cares nothing for any of our lands (and of course they run Wasteland on top of that).
Right now, I bring Key out generally against the blue control decks since they don't molest our mana or generally play many taxing counters (other than maybe some Spell Pierce), so we don't need to often generate more mana than exactly what we need to cast our bombs.
Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
@baghdadbob:
I don't think you'll need 3-4 Crucibles. Two should be enough.
I like Diamonds too as they accelerate you to early Chalice/3sphere.
Although Sphere of Resistance doesn't really help. In a format where a lot of decks can survive with 2 or less lands, it's not very effective.
