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@chatto, no land problems. At least not that my weak mind remember :smile:
I have found that 23 is ok, but 24 is to be a little on the safe side.
BTW, it just occured to me, it also allow you to put in extra cards when sideboarding with no ill repercussions.
I tend to do that and so far i have not been mana screwed by running 61+ cards in duels two and three.
Hey guys, I've been running a w/b pox deck that has been a lot of fun playing around outside of competitive so far. Thinking I might try to play it once i get the Vindicates off proxies. I found it on a list of pox decks that did well recently. Seems like a great splash.
2 Nether Spirit
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Vindicate
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Lingering Souls
4 Sinkhole
4 Smallpox
3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Cursed Scroll
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Bloodstained Mire
3 Flagstones of Trokair
3 Scrubland
4 Marsh Flats
4 Wasteland
7 Swamp
4 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
2 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
3 Dark Confidant
3 Extirpate
1 Ensnaring Bridge
What do you guys think?
For those that didn't see, Reid Duke played Pox at the SCG Invitational. His article today had his list. He ended 34th. His list is quite interesting though.
Interesting inclusions are the large number of Cursed Scroll (which makes sense give the other cards), Night of Souls' Betrayal, and Ensnaring Bridge. His explanation:Quote:
4 Liliana of the Veil
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Smallpox
2 Night of Souls' Betrayal
4 Innocent Blood
13 Swamp
1 Engineered Plague
2 Nether Spirit
4 Dark Ritual
3 Cursed Scroll
4 Wasteland
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Sinkhole
Sideboard
2 Surgical Extraction
3 Relic of Progenitus
1 Darkblast
2 Pithing Needle
3 Engineered Plague
3 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Chains of Mephistopheles
He goes on to talk about how it helps your edict effects stick and stops you from getting swarmed. What he doesn't mention is that is dodges Abrupt Decay.Quote:
Some of Legacy's defining creatures include True-Name Nemesis, Snapcaster Mage, Vendilion Clique, Delver of Secrets, Lingering Souls, Mother of Runes, and Dark Confidant. Simply serving as a one-for-one answer to these cards is already a reasonable effect. However, Night of Souls' Betrayal has the potential to wipe out several creatures at once and has the effect of "Extirpating" these creatures for the rest of the game, making them uncastable dead draws once the enchantment is in play.
I don't want to quote the whole article because it is premium, but I thought you all might enjoy looking at the list.
http://www.starcitygames.com/article...act-Cards.html
I do worry about the basic land count. The occasional Blood Moon stompy was uncommon, but a lot more decks run it now, particularly worrisome are the Sneak and Show decks packing it. However it has not caused two and three (or more!) color decks to disappear from the format. Mox Diamond and land destruction and discard may help keep them from playing it and Ratchet Bomb can help, so can keeping a green open for Abrupt Decay. But those are unsavory options that are bad for your line of play. Price of Progress is bad news too. Ideally I would like to run two Swamps and a Forest, but against any other deck I dont think I would like drawing a basic forest. A lot of spells still cost two skulls as well. The idea that you can hope to draw or fetch the basic lands before a Moon comes down is helpful, but no guarantee either. I still run two Cabal Pit because the lock with Loam is a nice adjunct to a Scroll. Maybe if I didnt run Entomb I could replace it with a basic. Sometimes even just a simple wasteland taking out a green is a problem, or getting a Mox decayed. But these things happen to all decks which dont run all basics, which is most decks. That is why if you are going to splash another color you need to make it count.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chatto
Hello all,
First of all, I'm quite new to the legacy format and just started browsing around this forum.
After reading up the Pox decks, it seems to be quite interesting so I made the following deck which has DD combo + living wish to bring out threats:
25 LANDS
1 Swamp
1 Forrest
2 Barren Moor
4 Bayou
1 Dark Depth
1 Wooded Foothills
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Thespian's Stage1 CREATURES
1 Nether Spirit28 INSTANTS and SORCERIES
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Living Wish
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Innocent Blood
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Entomb
2 Life from the Loam
1 Raven's Crime
4 Sinkhole
4 Smallpox6 OTHER SPELLS
4 Liliana of the Veil
2 Mox Diamond15 SIDEBOARD
1 Vampire Hexmage
1 Phyrexian Obliterator
2 Tombstalker
2 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Wasteland
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Thespian Stage
1 Dark Depths
1 Karakas
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Pithing Needle
But after playing a few games with a friend (a much better player, playing his UWR tempo deck) , I find that I'm having mana issues after dual get wasted or fetch get stifle, then eventually get beat down pretty badly :(.
Now I am considering the following:
26 LANDS
3 Swamp
1 Forrest
2 Barren Moor
4 Bayou
1 Dark Depth
1 Marsh Flats
2 Mishra's Factory
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Thespian's Stage1 CREATURES
1 Nether Spirit29 INSTANTS and SORCERIES
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Living Wish
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Innocent Blood
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Life from the Loam
1 Entomb
1 Raven's Crime
4 Sinkhole
4 Smallpox4 OTHER SPELLS
4 Liliana of the Veil15 SIDEBOARD
1 Vampire Hexmage
1 Phyrexian Obliterator
2 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Nether Spirit
1 Tombstalker
1 Phyrexian Walker
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Thespian Stage
1 Dark Depths
1 Karakas
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Pithing Needle
Changes:
LANDS
+2 Swamp
+1 Wasteland (from SB)
-2 Mishra's FactoryINSTANTS and SORCERIES
+1 Inquisition of Kozilek
+1 Innocent Blood
-1 Living WishOTHER SPELLS
-2 Mox DiamondSIDEBOARD
+1 Phyrexian Walker
+1 Nether Spirit
-1 Wasteland (to the MB)
Please advise if this Pox deck will work?
Also a couple of questions:
- I'm thinking of removing Mishra's Factory completely for basic lands/fetchs since I can use living wish to get creatures... bad idea?
- Should I consider running Cabal Therapy? Pox?
- Will more Loam help this deck?
- Any SB suggestions that can help here?
Any comments is greatly appreciated!
@ Beez: I like the Chalice list, so I've been trying it out. I'm not convinced that it is the best, but I still like it. I haven't seen a lot of Daze decks in my meta, but powering through seems to work. As a deck attacking the manabase, I don't mind them setting themselves back a turn. Since the Chalice is alongside all of the usual hand/land destruction, I can generally punish them for slowing themselves down. I am careful to play around it when casting my Moxes though. I don't need that blowout! If they Force my Turn 1 play, I just pretend it was a Hymn that hit Force and some cantrip:). I'm the sort of player that Dredge players love! I have zero gameplan for them. I board in all of the creature hate and cross my fingers. The Bog is useful enough, and comes up enough that I like it in the main. I Wastelocked myself with the Bog vs. Reanimator to force a scoop recently:) The Tabernacle is there on the same principle. If I start to see a lot of Dredge, I will be forced to change my tune, but I don't like to devote too much SB space to single decks. If I were headed to a larger event, I might wedge a couple of Surgicals or Crypts in there as a hedge, but in the local meta I will continue to live on the edge until punished for it. The 4 point swing from the Syphon Life is pretty awesome incidentally, and it pitches really well to Lili or Smallpox, and I'm often happy to just cast it with a land off the top. Bloodghast would be more efficient, but Syphon Life is a bit of a hedge vs. Ensnaring Bridge/Moat, and it helps stabilize with the lifegain. I hope this helps!
@ Chatto: I would love to run more, but I can't find room! If I was running into Blood Moon decks more often, I'd probably squeeze one in, and You have to be careful of Price of Progress out of DelverBurn and Burn decks, but Wastelanding your own Bayou is a real play:) I took 8 from a PoP vs. Burn recently, but I won the game. I Wasted my own Bayou vs. a lethal PoP, and won that one too. Be careful of Wasteland taking away your colored sources! I lost to that vs BUG Shardless. I lost to maindeck Back to Basics in a High Tide deck, but that was a punt more than anything. I feel the utility lands provide too much extra reach to replace them with basics, and the Factories, Bayous, Wastes, Fetches, and Urborgs are fairly vital. The one Toxic Deluge in my list is kind of a flex slot, where I try different things out. Basic Swamp is one of the options. Abrupt Decay is very castable from my basics and Moxes too. So I would say that an unstable manabase is a characteristic of B/G pox, but not a major problem.
@Kenco: Crop rotation might be worth considering, can be a nice tool to fetch some of the "answer lands" or get the combo, it can also be used if oponent tries to waste you.
Ofc, cards has its downside (liek getting forced and you lose a card and land)
Probably a jank idea, but what about Cabal Ritual and Mox Diamond to supplement Dark Ritual in Loam Pox? Seems like a lot of the spells we run are 2 CMC to 3 CMC at least and the extra bit of acceleration seems like it would be back breaking against any kind of deck.
Example decklist:
3 Bloodghast
2 Life from the Loam
2 Raven's Crime
2 Worm Harvest
4 Dark Ritual
2 Cabal Ritual
3 Mox Diamond
4 Innocent Blood
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Sinkhole
4 Hymn to Tourarch
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Liliana of the Veil
4 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Bayou
1 Forest
1 Swamp
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
Ran a slight variation on the list posted/piloted by Reid Duke recently in our weekly tournament. Only pulled an 8-man (holiday season, etc.) but had a good pedigree of players within the event.
Ended up going 3-0, with the decks in the event posted below with notes showing my match-ups and rounds.
Mono Black Pox (Myself)
UWR Delver (Round 1, 2-0)
Sneak and Show (Round 2, 2-1)
Jund (Round 3, 2-0)
UWr Miracles
Elves!
BUG Delver/Team America
Esper Stoneblade
Creatures (2):
2x Nether Spirit
Artifacts, Enchantments & Planeswalkers (9)
3x Cursed Scroll
1x Engineered Plague
1x Night of Souls' Betrayal
4x Liliana of the Veil
Instants & Sorceries (24):
4x Dark Ritual
4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Smallpox
1x Pox
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
3x Sinkhole
4x Innocent Blood
Lands (25):
4x Mishra's Factory
4x Wasteland
3x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1x Bloodstained Mire
13x Swamp
Sideboard (15):
1x Crucible of Worlds
1x Surgical Extraction
1x Darkblast
1x Chains of Mephistopheles
2x Pithing Needle
3x Ensnaring Bridge
3x Relic of Progenitus
3x Engineered Plague
I've been reading about Pox, and tinkering with it through testing, but never really committing to playing it much. I really enjoyed it, and it was a nice break from casting Brainstorms and Stoneforge Mystics. I will definitely stick to playing this archetype, and look forward to playing around with it. I feel like the Crucible of Worlds might be a tad cute, and cuts a card that I feel is better having multiples (Surgical). I also wasn't entirely confident with my sideboarding, so please point out if you would do otherwise.
UWR Delver (On the Draw)
-1 Night of Souls' Betrayal
-1 Engineered Plague
-1 Pox
-1 Nether Spirit
+3 Ensnaring Bridge
+1 Chains of Mephistopheles
Plague and Souls didn't feel like they did enough to justify keeping in. Pox seemed a tad expensive, and a bit unnecessary. I could have only brought in 2x Bridge, but I figured I wanted the whole three, as an EoT Wear // Tear can end up being game over if I'm too carefree. That requires us to remove one more card, and I figure I'm just killing my opponent with Cursed Scrolls as opposed to a Spirit.
Sneak & Show (On the Draw)
-1 Night of Souls' Betrayal
-1 Engineered Plague
-1 Pox
-1 Dark Ritual
-2 Nether Spirit
+1 Chains of Mephistopheles
+2 Pithing Needle
+3 Ensnaring Bridge
Here I feel like either take out all my Rituals on the draw or take out Sinkhole instead. Admittedly, I was at a loss.
Sneak & Show (On the Play)
-1 Night of Soul's Betrayal
-1 Engineered Plague
-1 Pox
-1 Sinkhole
-2 Nether Spirit
Similar to being on the draw. That said, Ritual is much better when you only really have to worry about Force/Misdirection. Still somewhat at a loss as to what to properly do.
Jund (On the Draw)
-1 Night of Soul's Betrayal
-1 Engineered Plague
-1 Liliana of the Veil
+3 Relic of Progenitus
Just wanted to attack his Goyfs and Deathrites. Seemed like the singletons were the easiest cards to take out in matches they didn't absolutely dominate.
Please feel free to voice any questions, comments and concerns.
Hey everyone,
My brother is building Reid Duke's version of this deck. He understandably doesn't want to pay for the Chains of Mephistopheles. What card would you recommend putting in the sideboard over it?
I've been wanting to play Legacy for a while and I'm considering giving Pox a go. It appeals to my desire to lock down my opponents and just keep wiping away their board.
This is the list I'm currently planning to build
Creatures
2x Nether Spirit
1x Tombstalker
Artifacts, Enchantments, and Planeswalkers
3x Cursed Scroll
1x Night of Souls' Betrayal
4x Liliana of the Veil
Instants & Sorceries
4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Innocent Blood
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Sinkhole
4x Smallpox
4x Dark Ritual
Lands
2x Bojuka Bog
4x Mishra's Factory
12x Swamp
3x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4x Wasteland
Sideboard
4x Engineered Plague
2x Extirpate
2x Leyline of the Void
2x Pithing Needle
3x Spinning Darkness
2x Toxic Deluge
The main deck Bojuka Bogs are because I'd like some main deck graveyard hate and the Night of Soul's Betrayal is because TNN is going to be everywhere and it shuts down top decked Delvers among other things.
My biggest issue is that Pox doesn't really have a source of card advantage and while it can easily get to a desirable board state, it doesn't seem able to capitalize on it very well. Most of the time you top deck into a land or a discard spell rather than a threat. Is there any way to speed up Pox's clock?
Hey All, I have posted this deck in the developmental section and I look for help for more knowledgeable pox players. I'm new to the forum and I hope this isn't considered thread hi-jacking but here is my most current list:
4 Smallpox
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Liliana of the Veil
3 Life from the Loam
3 Wasteland
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Badlands
2 Bayou
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Swamp
3 Punishing Fire
2 Innocent Blood
1 Barren Moor
1 Mishra's Factory
1 Thespian's Stage
1 Dark Depths
1 Marsh Flats
1 Raven's Crime
3 Entomb
2 Bloodghast
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Darkblast
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Forest
1 Worm Harvest
Sideboard
SB: 3 Pyroblast
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Ensnaring Bridge
SB: 1 Zuran Orb
SB: 2 Pernicious Deed
SB: 2 Golgari Charm
SB: 2 Dystopia
I'm looking for mostly sideboarding help, but any general thought or input on the deck would be appreciated. Thanks.
2013, Pox, & the numbers:
Overall for the year, Pox declined compared to the previous, 2012. However the deck still had showings at the open series and other large scale events. Including a couple lists that were the G/B versions of Loam Pox. Technically however, none of the 4 lists that made higher noted placings at the open series, actually made top 8, but they came close.
The deck itself, has largely remained the same, Liliana of the Veil, Sacrifice / Discard / Disruption effects. Finishing off with a Mishra's Factory, some Cursed Scroll damage, or a creature that recur's from the graveyard as sometimes, the sole creature in the entire list.
For all those pushing Pox into 2014, best of luck and hopefully for Pox lovers everywhere, the deck will have more success in the format at the turn of January.
Also, a personal thank you/congrats to the thread itself, just as a thread. Out of the 7 archetypes I made new/updated threads for in March 2013, this one has had the most responses/replies/views/etc by far, people really love their Pox deck!
Chains is in the SB against any deck that runs brainstorm, although I would imagine that it functions better against decks like Storm. I would likely just put in another card that fills out that matchup. You will never get something as flexible, though, since Chains is a direct counter to brainstorm.Quote:
Originally Posted by ryanghall
Chains of Mephistopheles is very good vs. BUG Shardless because it hits Brainstorm, Jace, and Ancestral Visions. It makes Ponder and G.Probe worse in Storm or Tempo matches too. The only place I really want it though is against Jace, since Pox has a hard time with planeswalkers. I don't think it's crucial, just an effective option. Use Pithing Needle vs. Jace until you win the lottery. I was about to spring for some, then TNN made Jace worse, then Reid Duke made the price go up, and now I'm having second thoughts. I play Chalice main, which helps against Brainstorm decks, so my evaluation of Chains' importance is potentially skewed. Chalice also bolsters my Storm matchup, so, again, potentially skewed perspective.
That is true. I forgot how good Chains is against Jace as well. I just have not played against him is a while. Just goes to show you how flexible Chains is. There is no other card that will give you even close to the same deck coverage. Pithing Needle is an option for Jace and other walkers, but it doesn't cover storm in the same way.Quote:
Originally Posted by ntropy
...Not to mention just how good the Chains are against Griseldaddy. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Kihashi
Thank you for the compilation of the archetype! It's just fun going back to basics with Black.Quote:
Originally Posted by feline
http://fc00.deviantart.net/fs71/i/20...es-d6ysr0y.jpg
Alright, I am not sure if i have posted on this specific thread of pox before, but it seems to be the most recently active so here it goes.
I have been attempting to create a pox list for the past 8 months and I have finally think I have got my list where I want it.
It is a pure discard control deck for a list of reasons.
Reasoning: Wasteland is expensive and I attempted playing a list with just sinkhole and smallpox along side some discard, but it just didn't get the job like I wanted it to. The fact the win conditions were mana intensive like cursed scroll, or I couldn't win the game fast enough and it gave too much time for my opponent to find the answers, that was the major problem i had with mishra's factory. I know it works, but to play it the way I wanted, I needed crucible of worlds and/or to splash green for life from the loam alongside wasteland for it to be a viable strategy. I also don't like having a creature on the field with so many sac effects, like liliana of the veil, innocent blood and smallpox, it just made the game go on too long. so i tried a different route and I think It's where it needs to be.
The pace of this deck is all dependant on when you land the win condition(s), if you can land two of them turn 4, you win by turn 8, if only one, turn 11, and that's pretty consistent.(depending on the pace of your oppnent ofcourse, sometimes you gotta play removal or lockout pieces first before you deal the damage to ensure a win)
So here's my list
Purely Discard:
2x cabal therapy
4x Hymn to Tourach
4x thoughtseize
2x unmask
4x wrench mind
Utility:
4x night's whisper
Win Conditions:
4x The Rack
4x shrieking affliction
Creature removal:
4x Innocent Blood
2x Smallpox
Lock Pieces:
4x liliana of the veil
3x ensnaring bridge
Mana Base:
2x bojuka bog
16x Swamp
1x verdant catacombs
And my Sideboard:
2x engineered plague
2x perish
4x pithing needle
3x planar void
2x ratchet bomb
1x tormod's crypt
1x zuran orb
So the win conditions are the rack and shrieking affliction and the strategy is just to be able to out tempo their plays with discard before they have the board stablized, and then stablize the board in your favor with a liliana of the veil and/or a ensnaring bridge
The most recent addition to the deck is 2x unmask and 2x cabal therapy and 4xwrench mind. This is primarily to grant a better turn 1/2 play by interacting unmask with cabal therapy or thoughtseize. If I know an opponents hand has multiples cabal really does work quickly, and being able to not have to worry about card type or CMC is great when I take the oppents first turn plays. the addition of wrench mind alongside hymn to tourach exponentially speeds up the game in my favor. Previous to that addition i was running 2x duress and +2smallpox and 4x funeral charm(which was primarily used to kill weenies and not used as discard, which is why I took it out, it wasn't working with the strategy, amazing card though). I dropped the smallpox off because i was primarily using it as a creature removal and not as anything else, granted when i did use it to hit their single land it was awesome, but i had so much targetted discard that hitting their land was unnessessary unless they had a creature out. It's a great card, but in this strategy it can hurt you more than help, it is my first card choice turn 1 to pitch to unmask.
Sideboard
the sideboard is pretty explanatory for a mono-black list,
1.engineered plague for tribal plays,
2.perish for tarmogoyf,nimble mongoose and any other green monster out there. (sweeping against elves mainly)
3.pithing needle for those pesky activated abilites such as planeswalkers, deathrite shaman, etc....
4.planar void(considering going straight leyline of the void here) and tormod's crypt for reanimator/dredge hate. the 1 of Tormod's is for those decks that are just good against a 1x sweep, like delver, which feeds of pumping from graveyard.(I am 2x running 2xbojuka bog main for any graveyard deck matchup because it's so bad for me considering i am just feeding their graveyard)
4. ratchet bomb primarily because it hits chalice of the void
5.zuran orb against burn, without a vortex in play, they lose most of the time. (My primary test partner plays burn, and he is very good at burn, so i know this to be true)
I may run dystopia for hitting leyline, but liliana gets around it as does innocent blood and smallpox, but not sure if it's worth taking anything out to run it, and leyline of sanctity isn't too prevalent.
future aspirations
The next step I want to take with this deck is to add fetches, and 3x sensei's diving top and drop the night's whisper altogether (it is just the best card I have in my arsenal at the moment, when i need a rack, liliana, or an ensnaring bridge to lock out/put a clock on the opponent, draw conditions are necessary)
Now, the most recent card I am thinking about putting in is Dimir Machinations because of the rampant use of brainstorm/ponder I like to be able to hit the cards they like to hide, or lock them into useless cards on top of their deck, as well as be able to go and grab an ensnaring bridge or a liliana of the veil when i really need it to lock the opponent out.
LET ME KNOW WHAT YOU THINK
I plan on playing a tournament at my local shop here in a week or two, I'll try and remember to write up a report. any suggestions i'd be welcome to hear.
I will point out that Chains isn't always good to throw out. I play Rock with a tutor board and slammed down my Chains triumphantly...but proceeded to get killed by a swarm of Goyfs over the next few turns. So use common sense when Chaining up.Quote:
Chains of Mephistopheles is very good vs. BUG Shardless because it hits Brainstorm, Jace, and Ancestral Visions.