Chinese fakes

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Originally Posted by Dzra

Honestly, I didn't read most of what you wrote. I sort of have a headache and am not in the mood for a lot of what I suspect is rationalizing (I apologize if I'm incorrect). However, I will say that buying counterfeits is not actually moral according to a utilitarian ideal. You are buying cheap fakes for your own personal benefit. Not only does this not contribute to the group as a whole in any way, but it actively hurts the group. Buying counterfeits directly results in the printing of more counterfeits; the eventual result of which is that Magic the Gathering can no longer be supported by Wizards, SCG, and local gaming stores. Buying counterfeits benefits the buyer (short-term at least) in that they've gotten cards for cheap but is at the expense of everyone else who plays Magic. That is not utilitarianism.

I suppose you might prattle on about how counterfeits bring down the price of cards and how cheaper cards are better for everyone, kumbaya. That might be reasonable if that were the actual endgame. Unfortunately, the real endgame of excellent counterfeits permeating the market is that Magic disappears because it ceases to be profitable for Hasbro and gaming stores to support.

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1. Doing something for your own personal benefit doesn't preclude the possibility of it being beneficial to the group. Given that economics is about the distribution of resources, if counterfeits improve the ability of the market to allocate resources to consumers (so long as the fake is a effective substitute for the real thing), then the net result is beneficial. Given that we're talking about a minority of cards that Wizards no longer prints, these counterfeits have the capacity to expand the market. It would have been better had they done it themselves, but here we are; the market is sorting it out.

2. There's no evidence to suggest that this will kill magic; I can't think of a single example of counterfeits causing the kind of market crash people are afraid of in this thread. Limited cannot be touched by definition, and is one of the biggest formats, if not the biggest. New cards take time and money to get right, especially with new anti-counterfeiting measures coming in this year. Meanwhile, the counterfeiters can't even get 20 year old cards right, using public domain fonts. Modern, legacy, and EDH will be affected, but Wizards makes no direct profit from the secondary market anyway. Your LGS might be affected, though I don't know of any LGS that doesn't do the bulk of its trade in limited and standard anyway.

3. If we don't get new cards into circulation, legacy is stuffed as a format. The price bubble will eventually burst when SCG moves over to modern, which will almost certainly happen at some stage, unless something goes catastrophically wrong with modern within the next year or two. When that happens, we lose the bulk of the tournament scene, card value, and the format becomes an oddity played in small groups at your LGS.

You are possibly correct, but more likely delusional. I've been playing t1.5/legacy since before FoW rotated out of extended and while the price of cards considered staples in this format have risen in value over the years, this particular format has never been more popular, despite the price to play it. I think the format's cost is a sign of its health, not its demise.

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Originally Posted by Illusions

1. Doing something for your own personal benefit doesn't preclude the possibility of it being beneficial to the group. Given that economics is about the distribution of resources, if counterfeits improve the ability of the market to allocate resources to consumers (so long as the fake is a effective substitute for the real thing), then the net result is beneficial. Given that we're talking about a minority of cards that Wizards no longer prints, these counterfeits have the capacity to expand the market. It would have been better had they done it themselves, but here we are; the market is sorting it out.

2. There's no evidence to suggest that this will kill magic; I can't think of a single example of counterfeits causing the kind of market crash people are afraid of in this thread. Limited cannot be touched by definition, and is one of the biggest formats, if not the biggest. New cards take time and money to get right, especially with new anti-counterfeiting measures coming in this year. Meanwhile, the counterfeiters can't even get 20 year old cards right, using public domain fonts. Modern, legacy, and EDH will be affected, but Wizards makes no direct profit from the secondary market anyway. Your LGS might be affected, though I don't know of any LGS that doesn't do the bulk of its trade in limited and standard anyway.

3. If we don't get new cards into circulation, legacy is stuffed as a format. The price bubble will eventually burst when SCG moves over to modern, which will almost certainly happen at some stage, unless something goes catastrophically wrong with modern within the next year or two. When that happens, we lose the bulk of the tournament scene, card value, and the format becomes an oddity played in small groups at your LGS.

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If counterfeits become successful (ie near impossible to detect) and widespread it could very well ultimately mean the end of magic. I think many people tend to forget that what made mtg the remarkable success that it is today is that sweet fusion of collectability and a great game. Intrindically tied to the concept of collectability is scarcity and value.

Part of what makes players buy new product is the (qasi-illusory) notion that what they are buying has the potential to become valuable and could be sold at a profit. If it becomes known that every year hundreds of thousands of counterfeits will be pumped into the market at a six month delay from when wotc release a new set (due to them needing time to get the newest cards right) then people will lose the incentive to buy new product which will eventually mean no more new magic cards.

Apologies for typos, writing from my phone.

The Case For Passable Proxies

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. This is my opinion, my case, and defense of passable proxies. These proxies are great, and I see no ethical problem with them provided people aren't selling or trading them as real cards. Unfortunately, there are some people who will do this. But players who are just using the proxies for gameplay shouldn't be shamed or judged.

The proxies are good because they allow players to have a good paper Magic the Gathering experience without having to spend a small fortune. These proxies also don't hinder or affect gameplay unlike handwritten or low quality proxies (crappy proxies encourage players to gawk, double take, and squint at cards. These cards often have inferior resolution, or no picture at all, which makes it harder to identify and recognize certain cards. All of these things slow down game play).

Passable proxies eliminate an arbitrary barrier to entrance that has nothing to do with gameplay. They allow players that don't have thousands of dollars to play magic still have a good paper magic the gathering experience and compete with players that invest a lot of money in cards. If Jasmine has a $2500 American Control deck, and I have a $3000 Stoneblade deck, but it is made from passable proxies, I only have to pay $100 but I can still have competitive pick me up games with Jasmine at a LGS without having to spend thousands of dollars. This is a good thing because it makes a game about competition rather than money.

The proxies don't hurt wizards at all because they don't print these cards anymore and they don't sell singles anymore. The proxies won't kill the secondary market for real cards because some players like supporting wizards of the coast and their LGS. Many players like having real cards. Some players don't like buying cards online. Some players don't like the fake cards, because even though they are passable, they still are distinguishable, etc.

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Originally Posted by HonorBasquiat

The Case For Passable Proxies

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. This is my opinion, my case, and defense of passable proxies. These proxies are great, and I see no ethical problem with them provided people aren't selling or trading them as real cards. Unfortunately, there are some people who will do this. But players who are just using the proxies for gameplay shouldn't be shamed or judged.

The proxies are good because they allow players to have a good paper Magic the Gathering experience without having to spend a small fortune. These proxies also don't hinder or affect gameplay unlike handwritten or low quality proxies (crappy proxies encourage players to gawk, double take, and squint at cards. These cards often have inferior resolution, or no picture at all, which makes it harder to identify and recognize certain cards. All of these things slow down game play).

Passable proxies eliminate an arbitrary barrier to entrance that has nothing to do with gameplay. They allow players that don't have thousands of dollars to play magic still have a good paper magic the gathering experience and compete with players that invest a lot of money in cards. If Jasmine has a $2500 American Control deck, and I have a $3000 Stoneblade deck, but it is made from passable proxies, I only have to pay $100 but I can still have competitive pick me up games with Jasmine at a LGS without having to spend thousands of dollars. This is a good thing because it makes a game about competition rather than money.

The proxies don't hurt wizards at all because they don't print these cards anymore and they don't sell singles anymore. The proxies won't kill the secondary market for real cards because some players like supporting wizards of the coast and their LGS. Many players like having real cards. Some players don't like buying cards online. Some players don't like the fake cards, because even though they are passable, they still are distinguishable, etc.

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Dood, if you want to Proxy up a deck for playing, Inform your store and playgroup and make some with a 40$ Printer. We are cool with that locally. The only reason form making indistinguishable fakes is ripping off people or cheat on sanctioned event judges while you have marked cards in your deck as those cards feel different from the rest

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Originally Posted by nevilshute

If counterfeits become successful (ie near impossible to detect) and widespread it could very well ultimately mean the end of magic. I think many people tend to forget that what made mtg the remarkable success that it is today us that sweet fusion of collectability and a great game. Intrindically tied to the concept of collectability is scarcity and value.

Part of what makes players buy new product is the (illusory) notion that what they are buying has the potential to become valuable and could be sold at a profit. If it becomes known that every year hundreds of thousands of counterfeits will be pumped into the market at a six month delay from when wotc release a new set (due to them needing time to get the newest cards right) then people will lose the incentive to buy new product which will eventually mean no more new magic cards.

Apologies for typos, writing from my phone.

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This would be true if the duals were designed as collectibles, but the revised duals specifically weren't. That's the reason for them having a white border, because it indicated that their print run was effectively unlimited, and they were intended for use as game pieces. Black-bordered duals from alpha and beta were limited, and intended as collector's items because they were aesthetically superior. This is also the reason there are so many duals in existence; duals are not rare, but the supply is strained relative to the player base. This is exacerbated by the fact that speculators have bought in, because the reserved list means the price of duals never actually fluctuates, and only ever goes up.

Secondly, many players buy new cards because they're new cards. New limited formats will always have appeal, and standard has rotation built into it to ensure that people keep buying. That's the whole point of these systems. People won't stop buying cards, because they're the only source of new playables, and you can always verify that the card is real. Even with perfect counterfeits, there is still a lag between when new cards come out, and how soon counterfeiters can produce a passable copy. There's both time and cost involved. Pulling a sweet card is always good, but it's not the primary motivation for cracking packs.

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Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee

You are possibly correct, but more likely delusional. I've been playing t1.5/legacy since before FoW rotated out of extended and while the price of cards considered staples in this format have risen in value over the years, this particular format has never been more popular, despite the price to play it. I think the format's cost is a sign of its health, not its demise.

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I won't discount the possibility. At the end of the day, time will reveal all.

The problem with your line of thinking is that uncontrolled price rises are almost never a sign of economic health, and are instead an indication of a bubble. When bubbles pop, you do get the kind of economic collapse people here are afraid of. Incidentally, the presence of counterfeits is often a sign that there is a bubble, because the price of the commodity has detached from its inherent value, allowing counterfeiters space to operate within the market. As I mentioned earlier, the cost of buying into a format directly correlates with the number of people that play that format. That alone should be cause for alarm if the price of playing legacy keeps climbing ever higher. Eventually, a point will be reached where -- at best -- the population stays constant. More likely, it gradually decreases. If SCG ever moves away from legacy, the prize money dries up, the tournament scene takes a massive hit, people sell out, and card values collapse. Even Wizards can see that legacy right now is unsustainable without new cards.

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Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee

I think the format's cost is a sign of its health, not its demise.

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That's only partly true. Yes, prices have risen due to higher demand.

However, there are also the big dealers and speculators who drive prices sky-high for their own profit. SCG isn't providing Opens because they're nice guys, but cuttthroat dealers who abuse their quasi-monopoly to dictate the price of the secondary market. They've clearly shown that they're willing to drop Legacy in a heartbeat if something more profitable comes along (i.e. Modern). It's only a matter of time now since prices become more and more unsustainable with the rising prices. The old "corner the market and jack up the price" tactic has a limit before people say "Fuck it!" and we're probably going to see it soon, probably at the end of this year or next year with the current pace. I wouldn't be suprised if Underground Seas hit 500$ at the end of the year.

If a goddamn website bug causes Cabal Therapy to double in price and it stays high afterwards, you know there' something terrible wrong with the ecosystem.

Edit:
http://www.abugames.com/images/media...e/ABUG2002.jpg

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

The only reason form making indistinguishable fakes is ripping off people or cheat on sanctioned event judges while you have marked cards in your deck as those cards feel different from the rest

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Not true. Reread what I wrote.

If you actually read what I'd wrote, you'd learn about other reasons why people want to play with passable proxies (they want an indistinguishable gameplay experience without spending thousands of dollars, they don't want to slow down the game with crappy proxies, they play in play circles where crappy proxies are frowned upon, etc.)

I read it and I call bullshit. I don't understand why you think that printed cut outs that are identical to the cards they are proxies of slid in front of basic lands in a set of 3.00 ultra-pro sleeves are less acceptable than non-destinguishable fakes that quite possibly threaten the entire tournament structure and even the game itself. Stupidity incarnate.

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Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee

I read it and I call bullshit. I don't understand why you think that printed cut outs that are identical to the cards they are proxies of slid in front of basic lands in a set of 3.00 ultra-pro sleeves are less acceptable than non-destinguishable fakes that quite possibly threaten the entire tournament structure and even the game itself. Stupidity incarnate.

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+1

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Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee

I read it and I call bullshit. I don't understand why you think that printed cut outs that are identical to the cards they are proxies of slid in front of basic lands in a set of 3.00 ultra-pro sleeves are less acceptable than non-destinguishable fakes that quite possibly threaten the entire tournament structure and even the game itself. Stupidity incarnate.

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Because home printed proxies are crappy and have inferior resolution, quality, and coloring. They encourage players to double take and gawk at cards which slows down and hinders game play. There are also white knights and haters who on principle refuse to play against proxies because they don't look like real cards.

Explain to me how passable proxies threaten the entire tournament structure when they don't affect game play at all. Be specific too. People aren't going to stop buying real cards just because there are counterfeits. You certainly aren't. People never stopped buying Gucci bags, Lacoste shirts and iPods.

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Originally Posted by HonorBasquiat

Not true. Reread what I wrote.

If you actually read what I'd wrote, you'd learn about other reasons why people want to play with passable proxies (they want an indistinguishable gameplay experience without spending thousands of dollars, they don't want to slow down the game with crappy proxies, they play in play circles where crappy proxies are frowned upon, etc.)

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Play pauper.

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Originally Posted by HonorBasquiat

Because home printed proxies are crappy and have inferior resolution, quality, and coloring. They encourage players to double take and gawk at cards which slows down and hinders game play. There are also white knights and haters who on principle refuse to play against proxies because they don't look like real cards.

Explain to me how passable proxies threaten the entire tournament structure when they don't affect game play at all. Be specific too. People aren't going to stop buying real cards just because there are counterfeits. You certainly aren't. People never stopped buying Gucci bags, Lacoste shirts and iPods.

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Oh I missed that fake Gucci bags and Lacoste shirts aren't sold to naive people ... wait ... what? They are?! Duh!

I only hate people that make proxies that are easily distinguishable within sleeves and use that for cheating. If you have some douches in your playgroup bitching around if someone wants to try deck x in a local 4-rounder before buying into the deck at last, get a new group.

I have no clue why coloring should hinder gameplay. That's a bunch of crap you posted here...

Wtf. Are you kidding me? Are you not familiar with inkjet? I'm done arguing about this. I'll post pictures this evening of my home printed proxies off a 4-in-1inkjet printer you could get at any best buy from over 2 years ago and then you can take your crappy, inferior resolution, double-take inducing arguments and try to not look like a fool to the entire magic community. Pathetic.

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So the price is still 25ish $ for 56 cards?

What cards do they offer? Do they accept paypal?

And then there's this guy...

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Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee

And then there's this guy...

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V1FFVWEQnSM

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Originally Posted by swoop

So the price is still 25ish $ for 56 cards?

What cards do they offer? Do they accept paypal?

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They offer free identity theft services, and they'll accept whatever form of payment you want to provide them.

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Originally Posted by Illusions

This would be true if the duals were designed as collectibles, but the revised duals specifically weren't. That's the reason for them having a white border, because it indicated that their print run was effectively unlimited, and they were intended for use as game pieces. Black-bordered duals from alpha and beta were limited, and intended as collector's items because they were aesthetically superior. This is also the reason there are so many duals in existence; duals are not rare, but the supply is strained relative to the player base. This is exacerbated by the fact that speculators have bought in, because the reserved list means the price of duals never actually fluctuates, and only ever goes up.

Secondly, many players buy new cards because they're new cards. New limited formats will always have appeal, and standard has rotation built into it to ensure that people keep buying. That's the whole point of these systems. People won't stop buying cards, because they're the only source of new playables, and you can always verify that the card is real. Even with perfect counterfeits, there is still a lag between when new cards come out, and how soon counterfeiters can produce a passable copy. There's both time and cost involved. Pulling a sweet card is always good, but it's not the primary motivation for cracking packs.

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The way I see it, it doesn't matter what the duals were 'intended' as. Something might be intended to be a collector's item within MTG while something else is less so intended, but every magic card is in principle a collectable item. Magic cards are BOTH game pieces AND collectable trinkets.

I will agree with you that, in a vacuum, the few legacy staples that are on the reserved list being forged won't hurt wotc's bottom line or hurt MTG. But the problem is, that something like this doesn't exist in a vacuum. Even if the counterfeiters only forged cards on the reserved list, the mere fact that these forgeries exist and can be mass produced will be detrimental to MTG as a whole because it will drive a fear into the heart of the player base, because how can you know they are only forging reserved list cards? If they indeed have the tools to do this then why on earth would they stop there when Tarmogoyfs, Dark Confidants and other non-reserve list cards are worth so much that it would be tantamount to printing their own money.


If this truth gets to settle and fester: "you will NEVER know if ANY card you own, except if you actually pulled it out of the boosterpack yourself, is real or fake", then I'd say that would kill the game eventually. Up until now everyone probably will agree that in theory forgeries can exist that are so good that it would be impossible to know the difference. But the pivotal difference is the scale. This has never had to go beyond theorizing because the whole MTG world works under the assumption that counterfeits of the highest quality would never be able to be mass produced. We trust that WOTC would never allow this to happen, either by making their product so relatively hard to fake or by taking legal action whenever something like this props up.

Once this (admittedly illusory) notion crumbles then it fundamentally changes everything. In principle we could all just write the names of the cards we want to play with on basic lands with a magic marker. If the appeal of MTG was ONLY about the game as a bunch of interactions and a cerebral exercise then the aesthetics and collectability wouldn't matter at all. No, collectability and the illusion of value matters tremendously. The whole secondary economy is a huge part of MTG and that would effectively disappear if the above mentioned truth becomes so. Would MTG continue beyond that? Well it depends on whether you believe people would continue to pay $5 for a pack of 15 random games pieces that have no value beyond their function in the game. I don't think it would.

Hello,

did I get something wrong or is this a Game with is desinged to be played and not to bec collected as enshurence for your wellfare.

And pls try to understand that the guys you are protecting, the secound markets sellers are the ones who are actually threaten the Game.
they are the ones who are holding back cards and creating a price increase to get more money out of it and only
support the format because they can make money with it.
They are the ones who are creating the buble by keeping the supply low artificially.
This is not near to even the thought of a healthy market and we all have senn what happens when this lasts long engough, you maybe
know Detroit and I think you all know the property crisis.

the counterfeights are not a threat they are a chance to wake up and see what went wrong and that we maybe should overthinking
the attitude towards our cards and the game we are playing.
We have to get back to a healthy market were the difficulties to enter it are not a actually a reason why this format is in Danger.
So I sugest we all should thinking over the prices of our cards again and maybe take the counterfeights as a guideline to reavaluate
the prices for our cards byourself and then establish a new player to player trade organisation to avoid the high prices
of SCG and other retailers. In europe we allready have some.

all in all we have to rethink what we want from this game and if it is playing and not earining money, if it is overthink if this is the right place to do,
then we should try to decrease the price whith all tools aviable and therefore recreate a healthy market with actually can grow.
Because then we will have more tournements and fun as now, because more people will join the market.

Ah last word we are talking about ecomoics so moral is not a thing you should even concider to mention here.

Best Regards Teveshszat