[Deck] Suicide Black

Another person who loves that sui hit DTB - Maybe it'll get the attention it deserves now :P.

Regarding Mox and Dark Confidant - Bau: your analysis is right in that if you're running Chrome Mox you don't run the small creatures, you want to power out game winning threats they have to deal with. Confidant is one of those creatures however. He goes right along with Specter, Negator and Shade in that category. Actually, one of the best turn 1 plays with Mox is into a confidant. If they don't have an answer to Confidant turn 1, I can almost guarentee your chances of winning are huge. You might also note, that the builds using Sarco, Carno, and pump knights tend to exclude Confidant (check out Taco's list et al.) There's also a reason for this: drawing into those weenies or discard later game is worthless. Instead the mana is better invested in pump creatures. With builds that have Specter, Negator, and the likes (those with fewer but larger creatures, and slightly more disruption elements), Confidant is right at home. You need to draw into those things if your first wave was destroyed.

Regarding Tombstalker: Simply put, he's probably too slow. Tombstalker at earliest will be down turn 3. More commonly he'll be coming down turn 5. Chrome Mox really doesn't help, because even though it nets you one mana, the card you pitch won't be heading to the graveyard. I could see the possibility of Tombstalker as a 2x. Maybe in creature slots 17-18. I'll have to test it a little. I typically run a bit of hate in those slots, like Plague Spitter or Yixlid Jailer, but those are luck-sack plays that aren't as effective in a diverse meta. Tombstalker might be the right choice there. I'll give it a bit more though :).

Just for some clarification: This deck is NOT a DTBeat. It's been classified as a Deck to Watch (DTW). According to this site, there are really only three DTBs which are Goblins, Landstill, and Thresh. All of those three have made multiple appearances in many regions. Sui has made no American T8s.

My gut feeling is that Sui can T8 in less "mature" metas, but will likely be hated out in a field of Goblins, Landstill, Thresh, and Stax decks. But, Hell, maybe I that is just an American point of view.

Currently im trying to fill the last three slots of my sideboard. what i currently have is:

4 Dystopia
4 Engineered plauge
4 Planar void

I used to run cabal therapy but I came to realize that the card sucks here. In tournament play it was always the weakest card and it was always the card i sided the least. One great strength of sui is that all the cardse in the board are game winning/swinging. The one matchup that my deck needs to improve on is survival/zoo so i was looking at bad moon but the card isnt that good. What does everyone else here think i should put in the last slot of my SB.

Also seing as how this is DTW now we have a different audience so i want to ask what everyone thinks is the best color to splash. Red no longer is good enough because it cant answer goyf. White answers goyf with stp and grunt and green gives you goyf instead of getting rid of it.

Edit: i want to say now that although white gives you the option of vindicate, testing shows that the card does not fit the deck. Its a 3 mana answer that doesnt work well with ritual and if you have gotten rid of the LD approach ,which alot of the new builds have been, it gets alot worse.

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Originally Posted by technogeek5000

Currently im trying to fill the last three slots of my sideboard. what i currently have is:

4 Dystopia
4 Engineered plauge
4 Planar void

I used to run cabal therapy but I came to realize that the card sucks here. In tournament play it was always the weakest card and it was always the card i sided the least. One great strength of sui is that all the cardse in the board are game winning/swinging. The one matchup that my deck needs to improve on is survival/zoo so i was looking at bad moon but the card isnt that good. What does everyone else here think i should put in the last slot of my SB.

Also seing as how this is DTW now we have a different audience so i want to ask what everyone thinks is the best color to splash. Red no longer is good enough because it cant answer goyf. White answers goyf with stp and grunt and green gives you goyf instead of getting rid of it.

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Green splash ftw, but then I don't think the deck could be considered the same deck but maybe I'm wrong. Nightwolf9 has been playing around with a suicide variant that plays goyf which is extremely scary every time I've seen it played. I'll see if he is willing to post his list.

@ Peter Rotten - Forgive any unclarity. I think everyone here understands it is not a deck to beat, rather when the acronym DTB was used, it was in reference to the DTB forum.

I also wanted to voice opinion that I believe Suicide Black has a better change against the top tier decks in our meta than the many various decks which compose the lower tiers. I hold two reasons for this opinion. First, suicide black has possibly the best hate tools against the top tier decks, and it it sideboards for these decks while foregoing the lower tiers often giving it an edge against top placing decks, more so than it would against many less commonly played decks. Second, suicide black has had greatest issue with fast aggro decks and burn. These decks see little play in metas that are more 'mature'. Suicide black is so much more at home ripping apart control, combo and even aggro-control. In contrast Goblins, Landstill, and Threshold positively feast on less mature combos.

Of course, much of this may change if the top tier decks began to run hate in their boards for suicide black.

I toy here, and there, and just can't keep a list for more than one day.
This list is playing really well. I like it's mana curve a lot.

16x Swamp
4x Chrome Mox
4x Dark Ritual
4x Duress
4x Thoughtseize
4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Diabolic Edict
4x Carnophage
4x Dark confidant
4x Withered Wretched
4x Nantuko Shade
4x Hypnotic Specter

Most of my testing was against NQG and Armageddon Staxx. On the play the staxx was pretty easy. Mox's helped a lot here, the 8x 1cc discard shined also. But they have hands that just can't be beaten without a FoW. Having 1, 2 and 3cc creatures is needed.
7-3 record

Against NQGw the Wretched was really good. Most times they answered immediately to it. Needle or StP. Sometimes top decked (oh luck...). But when he had a turn or 2, he did the dirty job pretty well. 2/3 goyfs and 1/1 Mongooses. Edict was great also. Killing anything even the pro:black Mystical Enforcer. I died out of Confidant one game. I was at three and revealed a Hyppie. ouch.
5-5 record

I think it had good results.

Even though edict can kill enforcer and geese its probably not better then snuff out or smother. With your build i guess you could run either although with a playset of both bob and snuuf along with TS the loife loss could become a issue. Either way snuff out and smother are probably both better options so you should test them out in your build and see which you like best. Diabolic edict just doesnt seem to cut it anymore.

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Originally Posted by technogeek5000

Currently im trying to fill the last three slots of my sideboard. what i currently have is:

4 Dystopia
4 Engineered plauge
4 Planar void

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This gives me a very convenient opportunity to advertise Serum Powder. Serum Powder plus Leyline of the Void is really strong, and having higher chances of grabbing some Plagues could be a boon too. Dystopia, EP, and Planar/Leyline are most likely the strongest pieces of SB tech black have available for the current meta. After that, there are 3-4 slots that get a bit tougher to fill with quality answers. With Serum Powder, you skip that and just increase your chances of getting those answers. Of course there problems with the card and its effect is mostly for Leyline of the Void, but increased chances of uncounterable GY hate seems reasonable enough.

I'm right on board with LordEvil. If you think you have a sold mainboard that can take most of the lower tier decks, then this is exactly the sideboard I'd be running (and was for quite sometime - I tinker with it still, but it's pretty much the same). It addresses exactly what needs to be addressed.

By far your worst matchups are graveyard decks oriented decks like Ichorid, Cephalid Breakfast, 43 Lands and even Reanimator. Leyline fixes this.

Red based aggro decks tend to be the next greatest problem. They run a clock a little faster, and direct damage is really bad for Negator, Hyppie, even Confidant. While Goblins doesn't pack much direct damage, it's too incredibly powerful to ignore with a consistent and fast clock. Engineered Plague has long been considered the best hate out there against Goblins. And you'll want it for this matchup.

Finally, while I think the Threshold matchup is roughly even, even with the the inclusion of Tarmogoyf, it is still the most commonly played deck, it often packs direct damage, and is without doubt the single most successful deck in the format right now. Dystopia - you can place money that you'll be boarding this card in more than either of the other cards. While it may not be necesarry to beat Threshold, when I know I'll be playing Thresh probably atleast twice in any moderate to large size tourney, I want to know I'll win those games.

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I did a little testing with 2x Tombstalker and found that I liked it. The chances of drawing into it with Confidant is rather low and I still haven't lost a game because of it (but I was damn close once). Suicide black can sometimes want for hard hitters. Hypnotic and Confidant are amazing with their abilities, but it takes a bit to see end of game. Even with 4x Shade and 4x Negator, sometimes games just don't end quickly enough. With 2x Tombstalker is was nice to see another huge beater who will put the opponent on a serious clock. The reliability of having a huge beater in play I think has me won over. Thanks to Baumeister for the little push of persuasion to try it.

My creature base is currently:

4x Phyrexian Negator
4x Hypnotic Specter
4x Nantuko Shade
4x Dark Confidant
2x Tombstalker

I play both 3x Mox and 4x Dark Ritual so these guys tend to come out a little early ;). I've found it's a solid base, much more so than any other configuration of creatures I've tested (and believe me, I've been through them all - wait... not the white splash).

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Originally Posted by Galroth

My creature base is currently:

4x Phyrexian Negator
4x Hypnotic Specter
4x Nantuko Shade
4x Dark Confidant
2x Tombstalker

I play both 3x Mox and 4x Dark Ritual so these guys tend to come out a little early ;). I've found it's a solid base, much more so than any other configuration of creatures I've tested (and believe me, I've been through them all - wait... not the white splash).

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That is exactly what I am running right now and I'm pretty satisfied. Although I'm a little nervous with Confidant. Whenever I draw into a Tombstalker, I nearly cry.

Galroth: Do you still run Sinkhole? I think with all your acceleration it fits pretty well. Also, do you run Duress or Thoughtseize?

Meh, I would love to fit some top action with Mr. Stalker but it won't fly in this deck. I think the chances of top decking the stalker are enough where I would feel a bit paranoid as well. Its tough, because he is arguably one of the best black creatures ever to see print.

Current List (for Baumeister and TeaCup primarily)

Creatures (18)
4x Phyrexian Negator
4x Hypnotic Specter
4x Nantuko Shade
4x Dark Confidant
2x Tombstalker
Discard (12)
4x Duress
4x Thoughtseize
4x Hymn to Tourach
Land Destruction (8)
4x Sinkhole
4x Wasteland
Mana Sources (22)
4x Dark Ritual
3x Chrome Mox
15x Swamp

To answer questions posed:

I do run Sinkhole - the tempo that can be generated with it is what suicide black (in this form, not with the 1cc zombies) needs kn order to seize a winning game state.

I also run both Duress and Thoughtseize. If's part of what gives the deck a winning matchup against almost any combo deck, it also helps to smoothe out the curve of the deck. Which without, was not 'smoothe' enough for my tastes; but then again I'm picky about the curves of anything I'm handling.

Notably I don't run creature removal. I was considering it for awhile, but then thoughtseize came out and I think thoughtseize is and autoinclude. It's more versatile, can preempt opponents creatures (almost like removal), and is crazy good against a great man decks out there. I've written very briefly on this matter before: in summary suicide black is an aggressive proactive deck, removal is less proactive then discard like thoughtseize, and only serves to get rid of creatures that are prohibiting you from attacking. Moreover, several forms of removal are particularly good against specific cards, but are not general enough (like discard or land destruction is) to be really effective all around. I choose to run my removal spells in the sideboard instead. Once you know what you're playing, then you can run an answer for it. Until that point, it's better to have threats in a deck that isn't trying to play the control game.

I should also addend that Jitte and Sword of Fire and Ice are perfectly good options with a different suiblack setup as removal that should go maindeck. Not here however. This deck runs less creatures which means less to equip, a higher cc for creatures which means equipment comes on later, and is in less need of it to make its creatures effective as it would be with the 1cc zombies.

This is probably a controversial decision, especially in face of Tarmogoyf running rampant through the format. But Tombstalker helps reinforce this decision. On a more general note, I see less successful pure aggro decks now that Tarmogoyf sees play in almost every aggro-control deck out there and virtually neuters every other small aggro creature that I would typcially run removal for - i.e. I'm actually seeing less of a need for removal in the present meta than in past times.

Dystopia works quite fine anyways ;).

I dont' see how mono black could be better than playing BG for Goyf. You lose practically nothing by doing so. And in reality you make cards like Tombstalker better.

a sample list might look like this:

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Nantuko Shade
4 Hypnotic Specter
4 Oona's Prowler (I personally love this guy) just don't play him in a metagame with a lot of ichorid >_<
3 Tombstalker

4 Hymn to Torach
4 Thoughtseize
4 Snuff Out
3 Cabal Therapy
2 ?

4 Dark Ritual
4 Bayou
4 Polluted Delta
4 Bloodstained Mire
8 Swamps

While I'm not going to make as definitive a statement as mono-black is better than a green splash, I think I'll list a few of the reasons it's quite possible to think so.

• Abuse of Dark Ritual - Negator and Hypnotic are likely the two most effective creatures for this, and neither is in the list you drew up.
• Manabase - Fetches can be stifled and cause you to lose precious life in a deck that already runs Thoughtseize and Confidant. Self inflicted life loss really can make a difference.
• More importantly Wasteland isn't really as viable an option which paired with Sinkhole offers a unique disruption strategy that can actually be effective in suicide black, mainly because no other deck effectively pairs huge accelerated beats with that kind of tempo disruption.
• Chrome Mox isn't as effective, which cuts your acceleration package slightly.

Almost worth noting is that you bypass all the hate directed at the single most influential card in the format, which incidentally is the only green card you're splashing for. That's a little absurd to me. Or maybe goyf is just that powerful. I'd think splashing for a color with other good options available would be the superior options (something akin to the white splash).

Is just goyf truely so much better than Negator, Specter, Shade, or Confidant that he requires a splash and the aforementioned drawbacks?

I'm not really certain how Tombstalker is better in BG goyf? Play Green death if this is your preference. Berserk and Rancor are worth the inclusion if you splash green.

Does anyone play a version that is closer to the deck lists from PTQ Flash.dec? I don't remember the lists off the top of my head right now, but I know that they ran 8 2/2s for :b: and then plenty of solid 2 drops too. This is along with the usual suite of disruption (ie Hymn to Tourach, Duress, etc). And then it ran jitte for clock speed and versatility. I'd say this might give the deck a much better aggresive clock which is always a plus. Personally with this sort of build I'd go with maybe 4-8 removal is all. Thoughts?

@ CheddarCaveman: That deck got played a lot more when there were more aggresive decks running around. True, it is slightly faster, but the 2/2's for :b: are kind of underwhelming after turn two. Nantuko Shade and Phyrexian Negator, while they come down a turn or two later, have way more staying power and can end the games by themsleves. Plus, the clock on the more controllish deck is not that much slower than the weenie versions thanks to explosive starts from Chrome Mox and Dark Ritual.

@ Galroth: Have you thought about dropping the fourth Thoughtseize for an additional swamp? This deck always seems pretty mana hungry and I think 20 lands plus 3 Chrome Moxes would allow you a little more stability. Besides, I never thought of Chrome Mox as a one-for-one replacement for lands, and I like playing 22 lands in this deck.

Urborg, tomb of yawgmoth is amazing with wastelands, phyrexian negator is not good with all those thresh and goyfs around, you better take the fast 1 black mana cost carnophage, tombstalker is not good in this deck if you run dark confidants, and without the confidants it is to slow.

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Originally Posted by Slayer001

Urborg, tomb of yawgmoth is amazing with wastelands, phyrexian negator is not good with all those thresh and goyfs around, you better take the fast 1 black mana cost carnophage, tombstalker is not good in this deck if you run dark confidants, and without the confidants it is to slow.

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Wow. You offer no input as to why these statements are true. Would you like to explain a little bit? There is a lot of testing by multiple people that proves Negator is indeed good against many decks which is why he has become a near staple of this deck. Why should I play the one-casting-cost 2/2's? You offer no reasons. Tombstalker is a pretty good late game creature which is why he's a 2-of and Confidant doesn't actually speed up the deck; he just draws you into more cards.

Uhm. i'm not saying Negator is bad, but with all those tarmogoyfs around he isn't as good anymore as he used to be. I played him also when i first had this build, but when tarmo came in thresh, I cut him. tarmo is easily a 5/6 and do you want to sac 5 permanents. its just my opinion and I have tested also alot. you could put him SB against ***** and goyf sligh and the rest of the builds who use goyfs.

Tombstalker is to dangerous with Confidant, and confindant speeds the deck up alot why use him else if he doesn't do anything. I'm not saying that tombstalker is bad, its indeed one of the best black cards around but not in sui black. But that's my opinion.

and the 1 cc creatures are not necesarry but they are a nice addition, like if you have only 2cc spells, chalice at 2 kills you.

and Urborg is very good, your wastelands can now make also black mana and just an Urborg is as good as an swamp, but with wastelands he totally rocks.

But hey don't feel offended, I'm just saying what my opinion is. and who am I anyway :P

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Originally Posted by Baumeister

Wow. You offer no input as to why these statements are true. Would you like to explain a little bit? There is a lot of testing by multiple people that proves Negator is indeed good against many decks which is why he has become a near staple of this deck. Why should I play the one-casting-cost 2/2's? You offer no reasons. Tombstalker is a pretty good late game creature which is why he's a 2-of and Confidant doesn't actually speed up the deck; he just draws you into more cards.

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Which in turn speeds up the deck. Once he comes down your playing a extra card a turn most likely and that indirectly increases this decks clock. Also I am with slayer 100% on this one, Tombstalker does not in any shape or form belong in Sui black. Its not just the fact that hes terrible with confidant, its that tombstalker isnt the right theme. Sui black is a aggro-control deck that relies on explosive openings, a strong mid-game, and tempo disruption. On the other hand, Tombstalker is a late game card that comes down only after you have devoted the previous 3+ turns to answering threats and disrupting the opponent... all while not playing threats of your own. Sui does not want to do this and when you run him in your build, your deck will face conflicting gameplans and this will with out a doubt become a problem. Also 8 life to confidant, no matter how infrequently, is absolutely unacceptable.

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Originally Posted by Slayer001

Uhm. i'm not saying Negator is bad, but with all those tarmogoyfs around he isn't as good anymore as he used to be. I played him also when i first had this build, but when tarmo came in thresh, I cut him. tarmo is easily a 5/6 and do you want to sac 5 permanents. its just my opinion and I have tested also alot. you could put him SB against ***** and goyf sligh and the rest of the builds who use goyfs.

Tombstalker is to dangerous with Confidant, and confindant speeds the deck up alot why use him else if he doesn't do anything. I'm not saying that tombstalker is bad, its indeed one of the best black cards around but not in sui black. But that's my opinion.

and the 1 cc creatures are not necesarry but they are a nice addition, like if you have only 2cc spells, chalice at 2 kills you.

and Urborg is very good, your wastelands can now make also black mana and just an Urborg is as good as an swamp, but with wastelands he totally rocks.

But hey don't feel offended, I'm just saying what my opinion is. and who am I anyway :P

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The whole field isnt tarmogoyf no matter how much it may seem. This deck answers goyf easily so when you hit late game, negator is the best card in the whole deck. I remember back when I toped 8 at hadley that the thresh opponent I played in the swiss absolutely despised my gators. Often in that matchup you go on and answer each others threats until neither of you have cards left. in the 2 games I won that round, negator won me both of the games because I casted him, then shortly after he dealt lethal.