Brainstorm IS the best spell in the format.Quote:
Originally Posted by Machinus
Printable View
Brainstorm IS the best spell in the format.Quote:
Originally Posted by Machinus
Because NQG wins with creatures. And Serum Visions found them immediately compared to Portent. That's what I meant with aggressive. But Sleight of Hand or Opt over Serum Visions, what the...? It's also about generating CQ, and Serum Visions can create a bigger CQ than Sleight of Hand or Opt (they actually don't generate any).Quote:
Originally Posted by Anti~American4621
Ponder and Portent do exactly the same thing, with the difference that Ponder draws the card right there.
@Blaukreuz: Ah, that's twice me, cool. Yes, we indeed have 3 free slots (the Needle slot). But 3 Needles are just too important here in Germany, since no one is playing combo (and IF they do, they play Belcher against which it makes nearly no difference if you are playing EE or Needle, but Needle then requires more attention because there's still the danger of getting pawned by 10 Goblins).
Needle has got soo many good targets if you just know against what you are playing. They are only dead in the mirrormatch.
But even the fact that it shuts down those stupid Wastelands makes it a valid cardchoice (a lot of people here are playing (Aggro)-Loam or 42-43Lands.dec). Single Wastelands don't hurt that much, but Wasteland-Locks are NASTY.
I also tested with 3 Enforcers and 2 Hoofprints of the Stag. I LOVE that card, but the deck actually has got a lack of space.
But imagine, with the amount of cantrips you are generating infinite Bolt-proof Sea Drakes that fly over enemy Tarmogoyfs.
Well, you can't really take these into account too much as they are all on a very local scale and do only show that Adan and me have agreed (more or less) on one list. Tobias Schein is playing my version of the deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by Blaukreuz
The differences between the two lists are basically in tha landbase where I prefer to play 3 basics so that you can just ignore stuff like Wastelock, Back to Basics or Blood Moon if you play carefully. I also like my 9th fetch as they synergize extremely well with the deck (Counterbalance, Brainstorm, Mongoose, Tarmogoyf) and I tend to always be flooded (the deckthinning provided is important imo).
There are a couple of other lists floating around (would be nice if someone could provide a link) which play no Mystic Enforcers at all but more cantrips (Opt) which supports the Counterbalance plan better but is lacking in my opinion as Enforcer is just winning every game it hits (well, most of them).
The only two things I'd consider cutting from Adan's/my current lists are a land and a Mystic Enforcer. Needle is just way too important in too many matchups, especially in your bad ones (Landstill, decks packing Deed etc) which makes it a slot set in stone for me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Blaukreuz
Saying that Mystic Enforcer is a game winning bomb and wanting to cut one might sound controversial but he is quite clunky (you don't always have ******** by turn4 when you want to cast him) and just clogs your hand sometimes which is not nice. Also he doesn't synergize with counterbalance... on rare occasions this is relevant.
And there are situations in which giving that Tarmogoyf that sits on the top of your library one turn more summoning sickness just looses the game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyachi
Also, Ponder is slightly better for hitting landdrops (you can play it immediately).
Also, Portent makes Pros laugh, just as an aside :wink: (scroll down to Reply#13).
That's not exactly rocket science... There are obvious scenarios in which Ponder is better than Portent, I'm not arguing that at all. It is better. All I was saying was that there are some instances in which the ability to wreck topdecks is nice. That isn't grounds for running Portent over Ponder.Quote:
Originally Posted by Der_imaginäre_Freund
And the manadrain is filled with drones and drivel... not what I'd call a credible place for quotation. Further, it should be common knowledge by now that the professional magic world has little to now knowledge of Eternal formats.
1) Ad hominemQuote:
Originally Posted by Der_imaginäre_Freund
2) That thread was made WAY before Ponder came on the scene
3) That is a defferent deck with defferent needs
4) He was dead wrong.
Serum Visions is meant to set-up your next turn... So basically, you're sacrificing this turn for your next turn thanks to the random card draw. I liked Portent because it got you an answer this turn, and sets up your next turn. Ponder is better now, because it gives you the choice this turn.Quote:
Originally Posted by Adan
Sleight of Hand and Opt is all about now. So yes, they do generate CQ because it gives you a card of a certain degree of quality... they just suck at chaining together properly.
I see what you mean, Opt and Sleight both are manipulating BEFORE the draw, so the odds to draw a critter is higher than teh odd's of finding a critter with Serum Visions, yes, but Serum Visions is still better than those catrips since Serum Visions indeed is also better for the next turn since it can show you up to 4 cards until the next mainphase (the 1 drawn, 2 scryed away, 1 draw at the next drawphase).Quote:
Originally Posted by Anti~American4621
But you will agree with me - and that's what I actually meant - that Ponder is superior to all those cantrips.
Jesus Somersaulting Christ people! Step back from your personal bias for just one second and analyze the cards in an objective manner. Both generate CQ (given you have top or brainstorm) as note acts like a fetch by milling away the two worst cards you put on top with brainstorm, or the worst two you saw with top. (top possibly included) Predict gives you slightly less CQ, as it only mills away the single worst card after you storm/top, but it does generate CA provided you know what card is on top.Quote:
Originally Posted by Adan
Just as a shot in the dark, Note is better than Predict, as it costs U instead of 1U, and it gives you thresh faster and has a higher probability of milling an art/enchant/sorcery to grow goyf. Predict also requires you to have at least 2U or 1UU open to storm/top and cast it in the same turn, that or 1/U EoT your opponent, then 1U your turn to name the card you didnt draw. Predict also sucks hard if you are mana-screwed or if you never see top/storm.
Both have their strong/weak points, but can we please get over our personal bias and work on improving the deck rather than having a two-card discussion in a thread about a 75 card deck?!?!
Insult removed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Media314r8
There is one reason why Predict is better than Mental Note. Predict generates Cardadvantage. And CA > CQ. There's nothing to discuss about it. I'll flame and insult everyone who's questioning that. xD - Then you'll be warned. So don't. - Bardo
NQGw has established as a more control-oriented aggro-control with fattie-finishers (Enforcers) and the inclusion of a very strong Engine, the Counterbalance-Top-Thingy. Counterbalance as well as Sensei's Divining Top both reveal cards, so Predict becomes less blind.
The short comparison is:
A blind Predict is as bad as a blind Mental Note. None of them generate CQ.
Mental Note costs 1 mana less, but it mills away the actual answers you are probably looking for. Additionally, since we got tarmogoyf nowadays, there's no need to have Threshold early. Nimble Mongoose is already dangerous as a 1/1, simply because he's untouchable. But there's no need to generate Threshold at the cost of less CQ because we already have tarmogoyf as a early 3/4 beater (average). Also, Mental Note doesn't fit into the control-oriented concept of NQGw.
But a well-played Predict is clearly superior to a well-played Mental Note, because Predict then generates CA while Mental note is still just a cantrip that is good then because you had a setup. But the need to have a setup for Mental Note makes it suck for me, because IF you play properly, you can get rid of your "crap-card-on-top"-problem just by sparing your shuffling effects for those cases.
In THE PASt Mental Note WAS good because you still had to play with them shabby 1/1 Werebears you couldn't apply pressure with them, but that changed thanks to the world-famous Tarmogoyf.
So everyone, stop playing Mental Note, 2008 is coming.
Play nice or don't play at all.
Altough in the past I have not been liking the moderation on the source I have to agree with Bardo that this tone of discussion is completly inadequate and will not lead to any constructive results. This is even more annoying since the topic Mental Note versus Predict has been discussed in such detail here before and basically will lead nowhere since the inclusion of Mental Note in a declist heavily defines how you play the dec.
Thus I believe there is no right or wrong on this topic, altough the consesus as of late seems to be that Mental Note is no longer needed as the dec only plays 6 ******** critters.
That's actually everything what I meant, but some people seem to be to lazy to inform theirselves about that. And so it was the reason for my rather aggressive tone, I apologize.Quote:
Originally Posted by mackaber
It has simply no sense to take something that's good the way it is and wreck it by including out-dated/worse/contraproductive cards.
There's also no reason not to play Counterbalance in UGW Threshold, because it's the concept the W-Splash can support the most. R-Splash can support the concept of aggressive tempo and B-Splash the Landdestruction/Manadenial concept. That's the reason why I clearly make a difference between NQGw, NQGr and NQGb, because (to me) it would make no sense if you try to build a NQG around a concept with a Splash that is inferior to another Splash for supporting that concept.
For example Extirpate is devastating in the mirrormatch, together with Stifle-Waste. It's also freaking strong with Thoughtseize (not really needed imo). Confidants help you to have a more constant draw so you won't run out-of-gas while trying to keep your opponent's resources low.
Concering Thresh, white is clearly THE controlcolor since it offers Mystic Enforcer (still the fattest creature in the format? 6/6 Flying, resistant to Demise and Vindicate and Tombstalkers is sweet.) and most important, Swords to Plowshares as the most efficient removal in MTG.
It also offers multiple choices for the Sideboard, like Armageddon against Landstill; Meddling Mage against a lot of things, similar to Gaddock Teeg; Jotun Grunt as semi-Graveyardhate and weapon in the mirror; Tivadar's Crusade or Dueling Grounds in a Goblin-infested meta or whatsoever (but against Goblins the way you play and timing are most important).
Red Thresh (I'm thinking of the BTS-Thingy) has got the concept of being really tempoish. Enemy Goyfs don't get handled, but NQGr utilized Fire//Ice, Repeal and Shackles to race them. You also have the "ram Goyf into Goyf, then Burn"-thing as a backup plan (but very situational!).
That's why I don't like the counterbalanced UGR with Fledgling Dragon that much, because the red splash can't support the "controlish" concept because we got inferior removal and worse SB-Choices.
Except Pyroclasm, it's definitley better against Goblins than anything else White has to offer, but it's still overrated since it's only devastating of the Goblin player does the thing that's standing in Media314r8's siganture:
But I'm conviced a experienced Goblin player won't ever overextend unless he can deliver you the final blow.Quote:
"Throw enough goblins at any problem and it should go away. At the very least, there'll be fewer goblins."
You have to keep the Goblin player low to begin with, and that's only possible with spotremoval (Blueblasts and so on). Sweepers would be a waste.
That cant really stop Mental Note from being bad, can it? Look, if you want to improve Threshold, you mise well keep an open mind and play cards like Mental Note. For example, if I were to build a more aggressive version of Threshold, it will definitely include Mental Note. Now that Mental Note to some people may seem dead, we should still look into more Aggressive lists, for example; a UGBW Threshold deck based off Helmut Summerberger's build. Bardo attempted this, I should too, because we need to test Mental Note. If Mental Note doesnt work out, we could run Dryad to make up for it's lack of aggression.Quote:
Originally Posted by mackaber
// Lands 18
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
1 Hallowed Fountain
3 Underground sea
// Creatures 12
4 Meddling Mage
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Jotun Grunt
// Spells 30
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Portent
3 Mental Note
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Thoughtseize
3 Ghastly Demise
2 Smother
// Sideboard 15
2 Seal of Primordium
3 Krosan Grip
3 Dark Confidant
3 Extirpate
4 Engineered Plague
That's a deck where Mental Note could possible be gold. With it's speed, it can use Thoughtseizes, Daze, and MM to soft lock the opponent out, while Jotun Grunts and Goyfs go for the kill.
Of course, Predict will work in this deck too, considering the fact Grunts and Goyfs arent graveyard reliant.
But this deck is a powerful example that white in Tempo will work... of course, it should be better with Thoughtseize and such. White doesnt need to be control.
As for Red being a control color; I have expressed my opinion on this heavily already. I believe that Red should be helping your trouble match-ups, not your good ones. Why would it matter when you already have Counterbalance down? You should already be winning, even with White or not. The mirror is about whoever gets Counterbalance down, not an attrition war anymore (If Counterbalance is applied to only one deck, the other deck should be the aggressor then). Swords would appear as the bst thing ever if Counterbalance wasnt introduced to the deck.
Also, Threshold is truly at heart a Post-board deck. Yes, it has a powerful game Game 1, but once the board comes, it becomes stronger and better thanks to it's flexibility thanks to it's cantrip/CQ engine. That is why you can afford running random 2-ofs like some Jap. It really shouldnt matter as long as you have a great Sideboard.
w00t! No Mongeese!!! Mongeese would be the only argument for Mental Note in NQG and you post a list that doesn't even play Mongeese?! Go away! xD
You are not even playing Counterbalance Engine. If I would play NQG without Counterblance Engine, I would indeed play with notes, but not in the Counterbalanced one. If I would play without Counterbalance (which is not recommended), I would play it like this (raw List, can't guarantee for anything):
// Lands
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [RAV] Island (1)
4 [A] Tropical Island
4 [B] Tundra
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
// Creatures
3 [OD] Mystic Enforcer
4 [OD] Nimble Mongoose
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
// Spells
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [NE] Daze
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [B] Swords to Plowshares
2 [SOK] Pithing Needle
4 [LRW] Ponder
3 [JU] Mental Note
3 [BOK] Disrupting Shoal
4 [NE] Accumulated Knowledge
// Sideboard
SB: 2 [A] Armageddon
SB: 3 [B] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [FD] Vedalken Shackles
SB: 3 [PS] Meddling Mage
SB: 2 [CS] Jotun Grunt
Somehow like this. Sideboard is still the same, but it also has to be changed then, I think... But actually I would just play Lam Phan's List with Mental Notes instead of Predicts. And Ponder instead of Serum Visions and 17 lands.^^
@Anti American: I don't know where I was stating anything that contradicts what you said above. I was merely stating that the common consenus is that Mental is no longer needed. And as we all know the common consensus is not always a good thing. I am completly on your book that improving decs can only be done through innovation and that dogmatism (as it is widespread in this thread) leads us absolutly nowhere.
On the other hand I am truly sick of constantly regurgitating topics which have been discussed extesively and to an exhausting extent elsewhere in the thread. While I personally don't think that the future lies in Mental Note, this is much more due to my personal preference and the way I like to play the dec than Mental Note being bad categorically.
I am truly sick of people telling others to stop discussing things now because they have been discussed in the past. If a consensus was never reached, the topic is still worth revisiting.Quote:
Originally Posted by mackaber
Also, would everyone please stop posting awful lists without Counterbalance in them? Thanks.
And I am glad. Another interesting option we could explore is not running Mental Note or Predict. UGB looks good at being completely reliant on Counterbalance just for Card Advantage.Quote:
Originally Posted by mackaber
It seems that now it is Counterbalance that is the future of this deck.Quote:
On the other hand I am truly sick of constantly regurgitating topics which have been discussed extesively and to an exhausting extent elsewhere in the thread. While I personally don't think that the future lies in Mental Note, this is much more due to my personal preference and the way I like to play the dec than Mental Note being bad categorically.
Also, it seems that we're too busy talking about what color is the best way to go... shouldn't you all be talking about what is the best approach to beating the mirror? Some say Krosan Grip, but I think there is much more to explore. Black for example has Extirpate. Pair that up with Krosan Grip and Thoughtseize or you could run cards with unorthodox casting costs and/or uncounterable cards like Shackles, Grip, Hoofprints, Nantuko Monastery, and such. There is so much to explore... and all we're doing is going off about color preferences and why we think it is best without Counterbalance being put into consideration.
To make this clearer than I have made it before. Consesus on the topic of Mental Note can NOT be achieved since the inclusion of Mental Note defines how you play the dec. Thus arguments about it are bound to lead nowhere since people from different camps will argue from completly different perspectives. If we want to start a constructive discussion we should maybe start thinking about which arguments (and builds) speak for the inclusion of Mental Note. Here are the ones I can think of from the top of my head:
1) The inclusion of werebear and mongoose in the maindec (or possibly even Jötun Grunt)
2) The inclusion of stifle and or spell snare in the maindec (since in such a build instant cantrips for U are better than sorcery speed cantrips)
3) Interaction with both BS and top (esentially functioning as a shuffle effect)
1) -> Werebear is stupid, because it's smaller than Tarmogoyf and Mystic Enforcer.Quote:
Originally Posted by mackaber
2) -> The inclusion of Spell Snare and Stifle would change the concept of the current UGW build. You could then also cut the Engine.
3) -> Interaction is not even the biggest thing, it's Nimble Mongoose. Nimble Mongoose is currently a very essential card and a fast Threshold helps to make him dangerour earlier. And Mystic Enforcer obv. But in a counterbalanced List it is not that good because Predict still has got more synergies with the concept and the cards.
If if I would play something with Mental Note, I'd play it like this (just to nag ObFreeley):
// Lands
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [PT] Island (2)
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [B] Tundra
4 [B] Tropical Island
// Creatures
4 [OD] Nimble Mongoose
3 [OD] Mystic Enforcer
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
// Spells
4 [NE] Accumulated Knowledge
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [NE] Daze
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [B] Swords to Plowshares
4 [LRW] Ponder
2 [SOK] Pithing Needle
3 [JU] Mental Note
3 [BOK] Disrupting Shoal
I tested it in MWS, it's quite smooth. But I would still not play without the engine and so I would not play without Predict. But actually the list is completley old-school.
Yea... there's a problem with Werebear... I mean... the mirror isnt even about attrition wars anymore; it's about whoever has Counterbalance down first and/or whoever has the higher quality threats, like Mystic Enforcer...Quote:
Originally Posted by mackaber
Reasons why we stopped running Spell Snares and Stifles is because they cant answer the better and stronger threats like Sea Drake, Enforcer, and Dragon. And Spell Snares are really narrow... like really... Spell Snares cant counter the things that matter against Landstill and Stifle is just a really bad answer a majority of the time.