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Tolaria West seems meh.
If you're going to play lands that come into play tapped, play Treetop Village. Ironically, while I used to hate Treetop Village, I think it's now the best choice for a second non-dual/fetch land in UBG Landstill, due to its ability to cast Garruk Wildspeaker if your Tropical Islands get Extirpated.
Regarding Tolaria West, I hate to agree, but I do. I love that card and if transmute was instant speed than it would probably be worth it; otherwise Treetop Village is a fine replacement for Monastery in the U/B/g versions.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tacosnape
This is what I've been playing in the past week:
Vorosh Control
by Bardo
4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
2 Fact or Fiction
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
3 Chalice of the Void
4 Pernicious Deed
2 Vedalken Shackles
2 Crucible of Worlds
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Garruk Wildspeaker
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland
3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
4 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
2 Island
1 Faerie Conclave
1 Treetop Village
1 Academy Ruins
Sideboard
4 Engineered Plague
3 Smother
3 Duress
3 Extirpate
1 Mindslaver
1 Engineered Explosives
I realize that Chalice + Deed = :/ in the abstract, but it's only a problem on paper and works well when you actually play them together. Given the amount of non-CIPT lands, the 1/1 Village/Conclave rarely is a problem on the lands, and you have Garruk's trick besides, though that hasn't come up often.
I can't tell if the Vorosh deck is better than 4c, they're really close, power-wise:
Witch-Maw Landstill
4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
3 Fact or Fiction
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Pernicious Deed
3 Engineered Explosives
1 Crime // Punishment [flex slot]
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
4 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
4 Tundra
2 Nantuko Monastery
1 Island
Sideboard
4 Engineered Plague
4 Meddling Mage
4 Hydroblast
3 Extirpate
Taco - Your earlier 4c sideboard is awesome.
Anyway, these are the two decks I've been playing for the past couple of weeks.
These decks have come a long way from the U/r and U/w/r Landstill decks from three years ago. :)
Early game it plain sucks (we can agree on that). Late game I'd really rather get some good draw instead seeing as I'd probably get what I need plus some card advantage. Landstill doesn't need a tutor that only goes for lands at sorcery speed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Der_imaginäre_Freund
Also I realized why you seem lean toward tutors when I noticed no fact or fictions in your build. My eyes are still burning.
Bardo, if you already run Goyfs, isn't running 2 Monasteries as well kind of too much? And what do you think about Tombstalker over Goyf? It at least dodges your own Deeds, and is just a bit more synergistic with the deck - though I can't argue about the sheer power of Goyf by itself.
The reason that many people don't play with tombstalker is the fact that, hes only a 5/5 when goyf can be bigger, goyf always costs 2 mana when tombstalker can cost any where from 2-8. I have found that tombstalker is played once maybe twice in a deck, then you run out of cards to remove. Also, if you play tombstalker, you might as well take out any idea of loam or crucible, and nantuko monastery is just way out of the question with tombstalker. I have won many games because I dropped a goyf second turn and then went crazy dropping standstill and such, going on to win the game because of it. It is impossible to play tombstalker on turn 2 and for that matter its really hard to play him at all because of the 2 black, if you change your deck to make black the main color, it could be an option, but right now, blue and green have way more options, black is mainly for deed and side.Quote:
Originally Posted by kicks_422
As galeng puts it, early game is plain sucks.
also about the monestaries, If I was him, I would prob add 1 more, without garruk, you need a couple more kill conditions.
No it is not needed. Based on the current Meta, makes much more sense to run a LD package instead. Below is a build I would recommend.Quote:
Originally Posted by kicks_422
// Lands
2 Island
3 Flooded Strand
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Polluted Delta
4 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
3 Wasteland
// Creatures
4 Tarmogoyf
// Enchantments
4 Pernicious Deed
4 Standstill
// Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Counterspell
2 Fact or Fiction
4 Force of Will
3 Stifle
4 Swords to Plowshares
// Artifacts
2 Crucible of Worlds
1 Engineered Explosives
// Sideboard
SB: 3 Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 3 Engineered Plague
SB: 3 Extirpate
SB: 4 Meddling Mage
SB: 2 Spell Snare
I haven't try it myself, but seems interesting. Not only does it dodge Deed, but also CB. Here is a build that did play Tombstalker and came in 2nd place in a 100+ person tournament from about 2 weeks.Quote:
Originally Posted by kicks_422
i've got a quick question about your list, since you just popped up out of no where, what would happen if someone extirpates your goyfs????? do you think you could win that game? your deck doesn't have enough kills in it to win, and whats with the akward out of place 2 islands? if your worried about wasteland that much, drop your wastelands and put more duels and fetches in, straight blue is worthless for your deck, you have no way of winning with only blue.Quote:
Originally Posted by kabal
the rule of thumb for me and many other people I have talked to about landstill, is that your deck needs 3 different kill conditions, if its factory, monestary, and a third in side if need be, I have always felt that having 3 gives you a chance to keep people from extirpating, or maging away your win.
I really don't see why people like goyf in landstill. It's really random and unsynergetic. Also, Garruk is solid, but a little overrated I think.
A. Stalker actually helps make Goyfs smallerQuote:
Originally Posted by blac198990
B. Why would you take out lands with Stalker's delve?
C. Of course you'd take out Monasteries.
D. Landstill's supposed to go the long game anyway, that's the strength of the deck.
D1. Of course you'll never play Stalker turn 2.
D2. Sure, you can win with Goyf like that. But if you can do that to the deck you're facing, then you can win that game even without Goyfs.
E. With 4 of each dual and up to 6 fetches, BB isn't a problem.
Nothing good there...
What if someone Extirpated your Nantuko Monastery? :wink:Quote:
Originally Posted by blac198990
Looks like a new Radley in the making here.
I'm going to keep cool here just because I don't feel like getting red text on my posts.
Yes, I have tried Goyf. And yes, I have tried Tombstalker. Frankly, I feel like im just playing old-school Fish when I play Goyf Turn 2 then Standstill and counter everything else. Tombstalker, on the other hand, takes the deck to a more controllish route than Goyfs do, which is kind of the identity of the deck. Going aggro-control with an early Goyf is risky because you only have 8 spells (FoW and Counterspell) to protect him, and your primary answer (Deed) most often wipes Goyf away too. But hey, since your so keen on running them, go ahead. It's not like I'm twisting your arm or anything.
I'll just let everyone else answer the comments that you made to them.
What's the point of running Tarmogoyf if we're running Garruk, exactly? Garruk does most of what you want Tarmogoyf to do without being vulnerable to creature removal or Deed, meaning you can still leave their removal dead and yours optimal.
This is my UGB Landstill on that I'm tinkering for a while:
// Lands
1 [7E] Island (3)
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [B] Tropical Island
4 [U] Underground Sea
4 [TE] Wasteland
4 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (4)
// Creatures
2 [FUT] Tombstalker
// Spells
4 [OD] Standstill
4 [IA] Brainstorm
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [AP] Pernicious Deed
4 [FD] Engineered Explosives
4 [B] Counterspell
4 [SC] Stifle
3 [IN] Fact or Fiction
2 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
2 [LOR] Garruk Wildspeaker
// Sideboard
SB: 4 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 3 [5E] Blue Elemental Blast / Hydroblast
SB: 4 [DIS] Crime/Punishment
SB: 4 [US] Duress
23 lands is enough, especially with Garruk and Crucible. What I'm not sure about yet is, if I should play 5 Fetches and 2 Basic Islands or 6 Fetches and 1 Basic Island. At the moment I'm testing the last version as I guess, that it would be kinda hard to reach Stalker's double black castingcost and Garruk's double green.
I'd like to see one more Stalker in there - maybe 3 Stifle or 3 Explosives is enough? The Sideboard is at the moment...let's say...unusual. Crime/Punishment is basically like Explosives, but the lack of white makes it not strong enough for MB imho, but against green Decks C/P is boarded against Explosives because it dodges Krosan Grip. Duress is against Combo, Extirpate against recurring stuff like LftL or other cards that suck.
Well, and BEB is against red decks as Burn or Goblins are sometimes played in our local store.
Right now I'm thinking about cutting one Wasteland for the second basic Island - normally 3 Wastelands should be enough...?
Feedback would be nice :smile:
Unless you see absolutely zero aggro, I wouldn't rely on just EE for spot removal. With C/P in the board, moreover, it's absolutely overkill. As for the third Tombstalker, I don't think it's really needed with Garruk as another win condition.
I would make room for some Innocent Blood and/or Shriekmaw. And Plagues in the board, too: really, I can't see the point of C/P. Well, I can see it, it just seems a waste of four SB slots just to dodge Krosan Grip.
Hm, right. Shriekmaws would be nice.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nihil
That's right - as I wrote before, I didn't know what to put in there. But Plagues could be decent (few Goblins, and a few Elves!.decs that scoop to Plague or Deed)...Quote:
Originally Posted by Nihil
Shriekmaws as an additional Wincondition and Removal seems really good to me. But what would you cut? One Explosives, ok. One Stifle, ok. And then? This leads me to the following list:
// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)
// Lands
2 [7E] Island (3)
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [B] Tropical Island
4 [U] Underground Sea
3 [TE] Wasteland
4 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (4)
// Creatures
2 [FUT] Tombstalker
4 [LOR] Shriekmaw
// Spells
4 [OD] Standstill
4 [IA] Brainstorm
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [AP] Pernicious Deed
4 [FD] Engineered Explosives
4 [B] Counterspell
3 [IN] Fact or Fiction
2 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
2 [LOR] Garruk Wildspeaker
// Sideboard
SB: 4 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 4 [US] Duress
SB: 4 [B] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 3 [SC] Stifle
I packed Stifle to the Side (the only thing to cut I could think of) to maindeck a full Playset of Shriekmaws. I guess, three would've been enough, too but two Garruks and two Crucibles seems enough to me. I could add the 4rd Wasteland again, but I don't think that's necessary. By the way: Has anybody thought about Smother in Landstill? Looks like a vaible removal to me.
Cut some of those EE! Seriously, you don't need four with Deed already in the deck. EE is good because it's versatile and it handles hordes of tokens (Zombies, Soldiers, Goblins), but they're pretty underwhelming as creature removal, which is what you'll use them for 75% of the time.
By contrast, Stifle is pretty awesome against Goblins and pairs up *very* well with your Wasteland assault (Waste duals, Stifle fetches).
Not to mention you can (and likely should) run Academy Ruins to recycle the Explosives, and more importantly Crucible of Worlds.
Regarding Tolaria West:
Quote:
Originally Posted by galeng
Not really as it is a blue mana source rather than a colorless one (Wasteland) and so increases your color stability (eg. alowing you to fetch a Scrubland instead of another Tundra if you already have a blue mana source on the table) and makes your fetching decisions easier. I agree that it sucks in the mid-game when it is your only 4th land for Wrath of God though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nihil
Card Advantage in a land slot? Card Afvantage that gets you one-offs?Quote:
Originally Posted by galeng
The advantage of Tolaria West is that its versatile. Early on its a land drop that makes blue mana (an advantage not to underestimate) and in the mid-lategame it gets you removal/winconditions/lock.
It also fetches Engineered Explosives. Also, it doesn't only go for lands but for the win... if you fetch a Wasteland with a Crucible on the table, it's awesome. If you fetch an Academy Ruins with Engineered Explosives in the yard or in your hand, you're likely to win etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by galeng
Fact or Fiction just plain and simply sucks in my opinon. I played it for quite some time because I had your attitude and thought that it was an auto-include and stuff but then in the German Champs all it did was to pitch into Force.Quote:
Originally Posted by galeng
Fact is painfully slow, even moreso against Daze/mana denial and it will never make more than 1 card advantage if you're looking for a solution and your opponent isn't completely dumb.
Also, if you play carefully, you'll never need the weakish Card Advantage created by Fact as the UWb list has way more ways to create CA than your average other list. For lategame CA I've always felt that Brainstorm is enough if acompanied by the entire other deck (Humility, WoG, EE, CWish).
I don't agree here. I think that manlands formidably suck until the very lategame as I'd never attack and risk a land drop if your opponent has removal. At least Tolaria West allows you to clear the board (selectively) on turn 4.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tacosnape
I don't know... at first sight it looks pretty cool/good to me, but I don't have any data to back it up. I'll let you know when I do though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tacosnape
Regarding other stuff:
I have several problems with your list:Quote:
Originally Posted by Joon
- 23 lands seems royally low with so many top heavy spells (FoF, Garruk)
- I echo the sentiment that you don't need a full playset of Engineered Explosives as you already have Deed for board sweepings. I'd rather add in more cheap targeted removal.
- 4 Shriekmaw seems excessive as they are pretty bad removal overall: sorcery speed and unable to get rid of a Dark Confidant.
- I don't think you need Tombstalker with Garruk in the deck as additional wincondition as it's nothing but a beater (no utility) and slowish.
You could try something along the lines of:
-2 Tombstalker
-1 Shriekmaw
-1 Engineered Explosives
+1 Land (Bayou? If you add Bayou, make sure to cut a Flooded Strand for another Polluted Delta)
+2 Ghastly Demise/Innocent Blood
I also don't like Wasteland in builds without Stifle, hell, I don't like Wasteland at all in Landstill... here's why:
- It sucks with your color requirements making you more vulnerable to land destruction
- Its near to useless without any way to recurr it as the random land destruction effect will nearly never screw your opponent because mana bases are more stable than in the Goblin-era.
- You make "more" tempo by developing your manabase than by destroying your opponents as you are the guy with the expensive spells
This is why I'd replace one of the Wastelands with one Academy Ruins as it adds a lot of utility to your deck letting you recurr your Engineered Explosives (very strong play) and being savage in the mirror because of letting you win the fight over Crucible of Worlds.
It okay but I personally don't like 2 mana pin-point removal and prefer Ghastly Demise/Innocent Blood over it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Joon
If you're looking for a bit more expensive removal spells you could also try Vedalken Shackles as a 1 or 2 of.
You could maybe also look into Wastelands 4c build which is pretty strong and techy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bardo
I'd only aply these changes to above list (which is a little outdated):
-1 Nantuko Monastery
-3 Stifle
+1 Academy Ruins
+1 Pernicious Deed
+1 Crucible of Worlds
+1 Crime/Punishment
After testing a bit (if wrecking random people on MWS counts -.-) I figured out the following list:
// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)
// Lands
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [B] Tropical Island
4 [U] Underground Sea
3 [TE] Wasteland
4 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (4)
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
2 [7E] Island (4)
// Spells
4 [OD] Standstill
4 [IA] Brainstorm
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [AP] Pernicious Deed
2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
4 [B] Counterspell
3 [IN] Fact or Fiction
2 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
2 [LOR] Garruk Wildspeaker
4 [SC] Stifle
3 [OD] Innocent Blood
// Sideboard
SB: 4 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 4 [US] Duress
SB: 3 [B] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 4 [7E] Engineered Plague
My impressions:
Academy Ruins is godlike! I could punch myself for not recognising the power of recycled Crucibles and Explosives.
Garruk is a house! In addition to that, he operates well under Standstill. With him, no other Finisher (except Factorys ;)) are needed. I thought adding the third Garruk to the Maindeck but two are usually enough (as he lives on even after Deed etc.).
Fact or Fiction = teh nutz. It searches counterspells, finisher or draws 3 cards for one. Incredibly good in here.
I weren't able to test the Sideboard much as most of my opponents disconnected after Game 1 :rolleyes:
I'm going to test it on some Onlinetournaments and post then my opinion about the Sideboard. Thanks for the help.
Feel free to critize the list, but it works well at the moment. :tongue:
That's what I've been preaching for the last 2 or 3 months and nobody would listen to me *whine*Quote:
Originally Posted by Tacosnape
Anyway, I took this deck to the novermber tourney in Speyer and piloted it to a misserable 3/3/0.
I didn't run any Stifles (which really sucked against Solidarity) and played 2 Jace in the Fact-slot. I still think they are better than Fact.
I also ran 3 Damnations to clear the board and protect my planeswalkers, but it's probably better to just run big walls, like ... some Lhurgoyfs for example.
Ever heard of an island? Seriously.Quote:
Originally Posted by Der_imaginäre_Freund
I thought tolaria west was for the draw/tutor slot, not "crappy island" slot.Quote:
Originally Posted by Der_imaginäre_Freund
It's versitile, but both sides of it suck balls. Tapping out on the main phase for an EE or some random land isn't fun.
I was aware. I was also aware. Ok sure. Who plays academy ruins when the mana base is landstill's biggest fault. Engineered Explosives shouldn't be played, or at least not main deck when you already have 4 deeds.Quote:
Originally Posted by Der_imaginäre_Freund
Fact runs the deck, and it's the reason you seem to need tolaria west in your build. Fact or Fiction is the best card advantage draw in the format other than standstill maybe. It's also a bomb at finding what you need and its an instant.Quote:
Originally Posted by Der_imaginäre_Freund
Right, because landstill is an aggro deck. All you need to do is take the better pile, and assuming your opponent seperates perfectly, you get 1.5 average card advantage (2 or 3 cards) and at least one bomb.Quote:
Originally Posted by Der_imaginäre_Freund
Please realize that brainstorm is zero card advantage, and can never be greater than zero card advantage.Quote:
Originally Posted by Der_imaginäre_Freund
I don't see how you can jeopardize the mana base in return of a land that can either be a non basic island that comes into play tapped or a sorcery speed tutor for 3 that can only get lands.