[DTB] Vial Goblins

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Originally Posted by TheCramp

I have been testing Warren Weirding (-1 Gem Palm, -1 Piledriver, -1 Mogg F. I run 2 Wort and 1 Siege Gang.

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I'd never cut Piledriver or Fanatics for Weirding as it doesn't fill the same role. Weirding is IMO a substitute/addition to Gempalms, that took the creature removal slots in the last years. Piledriver is sort of "finisher" in the deck and Fanatic is general utility (against grave-based combo decks, fish decks, Jitte, etc)
As I suggested a couple of pages ago, I'd play that list:

// Lands
4 [TE] Wasteland
4 [b] Badlands
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
3 [7E] Mountain (1)
4 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
1 [P3] Swamp (2)
2 [MM] Rishadan Port

// Creatures
4 [7E] Goblin Matron
4 [AP] Goblin Ringleader
1 [LE] Gempalm Incinerator
4 [ON] Goblin Piledriver
4 [SC] Goblin Warchief
1 [SC] Siege-Gang Commander
4 [US] Goblin Lackey
2 [LRW] Wort, Boggart Auntie
4 [10E] Mogg Fanatic

// Spells
4 [DS] AEther Vial
4 [MOR] Warren Weirding

Note that the list is 58 cards so you can add 2 goblins of choice depending on meta (Goblin tinkerer, Sharpshooter, more Gempalms, Mad Auntie...), but I see no reason to cut Fanatics, Piledrivers and Matrons (especially Matrons from the deck)

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Originally Posted by TheCramp

After testing, I came to the following conclusions:

1) Put in a basic swamp.

Wasteland kept me of Warren Weirding a number of times. Vial and Lacky obviously don't fix mana for Warren Weirding, and this change had a notable effect. I cut a port for it, so as to not effect my red count.

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I'm with you on this, I didn't find port that effective anymore in this meta. I'm down to 2 at the moment, but maybe I'll cut one or both in the future, depending on cards I decide to run and meta.

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Originally Posted by TheCramp

2) I'm thinking of cutting a matron for the 4th Warren Weirding.

I was tutoring for it so frequently, this seems like the right move, but I would rather test against decks where Warren Weirding is weaker before making that sort of move.

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Don't do it. Matron is the Demonic Tutor of the deck, it allows shenanigans with warchief and Piledriver, tutors for Removal against aggro-control, but it's great too vs control, where it's part of your card advantage machine (tutors for Ringleader/Wort).

What results did you put up in youre testing? Bad thing Weirdings sucks hard in the mirror, but I can see the aggro-control matchup much become a lot better.

I really like this recent list, but I'm going to run Rgb version for 4x Krosan Grip sb to stand a chance against those Plagues and Explosives, which are really popular in my meta.
I aslo like to play 2x of both Wort and Commander to have a better late game.

List that I'm testing:

// Creatures
4 [7E] Goblin Matron
4 [AP] Goblin Ringleader
2 [LE] Gempalm Incinerator
4 [ON] Goblin Piledriver
4 [SC] Goblin Warchief
2 [SC] Siege-Gang Commander
4 [US] Goblin Lackey
2 [LRW] Wort, Boggart Auntie
4 [10E] Mogg Fanatic

// Spells
4 [DS] AEther Vial
4 [MOR] Warren Weirding

4 [TE] Wasteland
3 [b] Badlands
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
5 [7E] Mountain
4 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
2 [b] Taiga

SB:
4 Krosan Grip
3 Pyrokinesis
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Leyline of the Void

I'll post my testing results a bit later.

My list with black after morningtide:

// Lands
3 [MM] Rishadan Port
3 [RAV] Mountain
4 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
4 [TE] Wasteland
3 [ON] Wooded Foothills
3 [U] Badlands
2 [A] Taiga

// Creatures
1 [ON] Goblin Sharpshooter
1 [PLC] Stingscourger
1 [LRW] Wort, Boggart Auntie
4 [ON] Goblin Piledriver
3 [TE] Mogg Fanatic
4 [SC] Goblin Warchief
4 [7E] Goblin Matron
4 [US] Goblin Lackey
1 [GP] Tin Street Hooligan
4 [AP] Goblin Ringleader
2 [LE] Gempalm Incinerator
2 [10E] Siege-Gang Commander

// Spells
4 [MOR] Warren Weirding
4 [DS] AEther Vial

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [DK] Blood Moon
SB: 4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
SB: 4 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 4 [US] Planar Void

Its 61 cards, so what is the best to cut...
And should Frogtosser Banneret be good enough, since it cost 2 mana. As 5th "warchief"?
And what about the SB? I cant choose between Void/Tormods Crypt(/Leyline)

Mvg

I know someone mentioned it, but I don't remember the reasoning for not including the card... But wouldn't Hull Breach be considered for the SB? Kills enchantments, kills artefacts...

I'm planning on bringing it in instead of shattering spree or some other remover since enchantments is the greatest enemy to the deck IMO.

Will test it first...

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Originally Posted by Don Tamac

I know someone mentioned it, but I don't remember the reasoning for not including the card... But wouldn't Hull Breach be considered for the SB? Kills enchantments, kills artefacts...

I'm planning on bringing it in instead of shattering spree or some other remover since enchantments is the greatest enemy to the deck IMO.

Will test it first...

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How about because Krosan Grip is almost strictly better?
-Slay

This is going to be my list after Morningtide

6 Fetch
4 Badlands
4 Taiga
4 Waste
4 Mountain

4 Vial
4 Lackey
4 Fanatic
4 Weirding
1 Tin Street
1 Piledriver
4 Matron
4 Warchief
1 Sharpshooter
2 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Ringleader
2 Wort
3 Siege Gang

Board will look something like this:
3 Krosan Grip
3 Engineered Explosives
3 Pithing Needle
2 Tormod's Crypt
3 Xx

I'm not sure what's going to go in the open slots. I've got a lot of room now that I don't have to run Terminate out of the board. Maybe some actual Combo hate, but I doubt it. Storm combo still sucks.

Re: Hull Breech- If you're splashing green, why wouldn't you just run Krosan Grip instead?

Re: Mogg Fanatic- Don't ever run less than four. Ever. He's seriously that good. Probably better.

Re: The new warchief- it sucks. Don't play it.

Re: Basic swamps- In two color, maybe. In three color, no. Just no. Here's an idea, just run the fourth Badlands. Your opponent is running four Wastelands, there's no reason why you shouldn't run four badlands. I'd run Auntie's Hovel over a basic swamp.

Re: Goblin Piledriver- Still sucks. Don't be afraid to run less than four copies.

Yeah, i saw a time ago you played less then 4, I was thinking of 3 (maybe 2),, but 1 looks to "random" for me...

I think I gonna test your list, and change it to my meta..

Mvg

EDIT: o, I see you play 61 cards,, what should you cut ;)?

Great thing to see other people cutting Piledrivers, I've been playing with three since shortly after Tarmogoyf has become the nuisance that it is and I tinkered around with Mogg War Marshals (they are really good against any non-goblin aggro and Treshhold, while providing goblins in play for stronger Incinerators). I guess I would still like 2 Piledrivers to provide at least some clock against combo.

@Teenie-Bopper: 4 Siege-Gangs? Seriously? I know they're good, but still four seems like overkill. Are they really needed that much that two or three wouldn't be enough? Also your list screams Port. You have nothing to do in turn 2 so some Ports should be good. I don't speak about 4, just two or maybe 3 Ports, 3 Wastelands (seeing Port as a 2-drop).

On another note, has anybody considered Pernicious Deed out of the board? It can kill the whole board against ********, and removes multiple Engineered Plagues as well (+ nearly any creature your opponent has in play), basically it would work as a more brutal whie less subtile Explosives. Sure your Vials will suffer some collateral damage but as long as Wort and Ringleaders and Siege-Gangs (sometimes the 3-mana goblins too) will survive I'm fine with that.

- Van

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Originally Posted by TeenieBopper

This is going to be my list after Morningtide

6 Fetch
4 Badlands
4 Taiga
4 Waste
4 Mountain

4 Vial
4 Lackey
4 Fanatic
4 Weirding
1 Tin Street
1 Piledriver
4 Matron
4 Warchief
1 Sharpshooter
2 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Ringleader
2 Wort
3 Siege Gang

Board will look something like this:
3 Krosan Grip
3 Engineered Explosives
3 Pithing Needle
2 Tormod's Crypt
3 Xx

I'm not sure what's going to go in the open slots. I've got a lot of room now that I don't have to run Terminate out of the board. Maybe some actual Combo hate, but I doubt it. Storm combo still sucks.

Re: Hull Breech- If you're splashing green, why wouldn't you just run Krosan Grip instead?

Re: Mogg Fanatic- Don't ever run less than four. Ever. He's seriously that good. Probably better.

Re: The new warchief- it sucks. Don't play it.

Re: Basic swamps- In two color, maybe. In three color, no. Just no. Here's an idea, just run the fourth Badlands. Your opponent is running four Wastelands, there's no reason why you shouldn't run four badlands. I'd run Auntie's Hovel over a basic swamp.

Re: Goblin Piledriver- Still sucks. Don't be afraid to run less than four copies.

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Yeah Umm, 1 Piledriver, piledriver has been goblins finisher and always should be.. wort should be a one, Piledriver should be a 4 of it is what wins goblins a lot of its games

Blah blah blah, piledriver can get a big front end, he r0xx0rs my s0xx0rs, blah blah blah.

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Originally Posted by TeenieBopper

Insert everything I said about Goblin Piledriver being the worst goblin in the deck here.

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I'm not an avid Goblins player, though I've always appreciated what it brings to the format. One question though: why is Thorn of Amethyst not a mainstay? Wasn't there more than a little testing showing how good it was? I've been considering building a mono-red version of the deck with including Thorn of Amethyst. Suggestions?

Why not to run the damn 4x Piledrivers? :mad: (even the Tarmogoyf can't block it and survive ussually), Piledrivers eat all the decks that can't stop them in time and they also have a lot of sinergy with Weirding: sac my 1/1 for two 1/1s with haste, swing with huge Piledriver... Yes, today's Goblins need some inovations, but cutting one of the most imporatant cards of the deck is not the way to go...

What about running some Ancient Tombs in the space freed by cutting Ports?

Galroth: The problem with Thorn was that it came down too late and didn't affect Tarmogoyf, IIRC.

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Originally Posted by MadManMax

Why not to run the damn 4x Piledrivers? :mad: (even the Tarmogoyf can't block it and survive ussually), Piledrivers eat all the decks that can't stop them in time and they also have a lot of sinergy with Weirding: sac my 1/1 for two 1/1s with haste, swing with huge Piledriver... Yes, today's Goblins need some inovations, but cutting one of the most imporatant cards of the deck is not the way to go...

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I can't believe I'm doing this. Again. I should probably type up like a 5 page thing on why Goblin Piledriver sucks balls and just copy and paste it every couple weeks.

Goblin Piledriver is not one of the most important cards in the deck. In fact, it's one of the least important. The only card I'd even consider cutting before Piledriver is Sharpshooter and/or Tin Street, and that's only because of metagame considerations.

Look, here's what it comes down to: in the situations where Goblin Piledriver is really good (where you're swinging unhindered with 2+ dudes and Piledriver), you were already going to win anyways. He's awful on his own, and does nothing but turn sideways. He doesn't offer any utility whatsoever. He could be a Goblin Balloon Brigade and you'd hardly notice the difference. In fact, I'd almost rather have Goblin Balloon Brigade because at least he has evasion.

But you know what? Goblin Piledriver is a good finisher. Oh, hey... how many copies of Tendrils of Agony does TES run?

@ Ancient Tomb- That's not a totally awful idea, but the reason I cut Port in the first place was to increase color consistancy. You probably could add Tomb, but I think you'd have to take the deck in a different, "non-vial" direction with all the big goblins (Goon, maybe Mutant, 4x Siege Gang), with Chrome Mox and possibly Seething Song to help power them out. I guess a suicide goblins list. But at that point, I don't see why you wouldn't just play Dragon Stompy.

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Originally Posted by TeenieBopper

@ Ancient Tomb- That's not a totally awful idea, but the reason I cut Port in the first place was to increase color consistancy. You probably could add Tomb, but I think you'd have to take the deck in a different, "non-vial" direction with all the big goblins (Goon, maybe Mutant, 4x Siege Gang), with Chrome Mox and possibly Seething Song to help power them out. I guess a suicide goblins list. But at that point, I don't see why you wouldn't just play Dragon Stompy.

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I don't think the second part is necessary. It does encourage you to run bigger guys, but why should that necessarily mean dropping Vial or adding Seething Song?

I have been playing legacy gobs for nearly three years now, and I have no idea how people can justify cutting drivers for edicts. I see MB sharpshooters, who are even LESS useful than drivers, as well as one-ofs tin-streets. WTH are you going to do with tin street as a one-of?!?! By the time you matron for him, you probably (darn well better) have warchief on board, in which case tin-street is just a 2/1 for R, and if you are playing him turn four/five after matroning withOUT a warcheif, you probably just lost that game.

My biggest qualm with where people are taking goblins is that there have been decreasing numbers of drivers, and NO (!!!) MB disruption other than mana-denial. How does goblins expect to win a game 1 vs combo with only 1 driver and no disruption??? Planning on winning games 2 AND three vs combo seems godaweful, especially since more of your SB will be devoted to beating said combo deck, as you will HAVE to open with a hate card or its a match loss. I must insist that anyone posting in this thread at least TRIES MB thorn of amethyst. I have found it useful in the thresh mathcup, (granted, not AS useful as a wierding or incinerator, but it does make thresh pay 1U for every cantrip, as well as helping you against FoW and daze.) at the least, its never a dead cards, and really only hurts your wierding. (which wil only cost 1B if you have both a thorn and a chief in play anyway) Thorn is a mediocre card against creature based decks, but it really annoys control deck, and is actually just a one-sided sphere of resistance vs combo. (nice lotus petal/rite of flame/chrome mox idiot)

The slowing of golbins clock ala removing drivers and the absence of disruption MB spells an almost auto-gameloss and possibly a matchloss vs combo, why rish this just to pack in more 'cool' into lists that have been top 8ing for years and years (with cabal therapy or duress MB, and certainly thorn or thoughtseize is superior)

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Originally Posted by TeenieBopper

This is going to be my list after Morningtide

6 Fetch
4 Badlands
4 Taiga
4 Waste
4 Mountain

4 Vial
4 Lackey
4 Fanatic
4 Weirding
1 Tin Street
1 Piledriver
4 Matron
4 Warchief
1 Sharpshooter
2 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Ringleader
2 Wort
3 Siege Gang

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After Morningtide, I would run the following list.

R/b/g Vial Goblins

4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Mountain
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Wasteland
3 Badlands
3 Taiga
4 Aether Vial
4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Ringleader
3 Goblin Piledriver
3 Warren Weirding
3 Gempalm Incinerator
2 Siege-Gang Commander
2 Wort, Boggart Auntie
1 Tin Street Hooligan

SB

4 Chalice of the Void
3 Pyrokinesis
3 Krosan Grip
2 Cabal Therapy
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Goblin Sharpshooter


I think after Morningtide becomes legal, its very important to cut port for more additional color sources of mana if your going to run Warren Wierding.

I don't like to play Chalice of the Void in the board, but I'm sick of losing to combo around here, so I added it back in.

I think the deck is pretty solid and still very good.

Because you're not going to beat combo anyways.

My teammate and I test the TES matchup regularly with goblins. I have an average of 40% wins pre board and 55% post boards against TES with the following list (the solidarity matchup was more favorable, but we stopped testing that long before I bothered to actually record match wins/loses):

// Lands
6 [UNH] Mountain
4 [TE] Wasteland
1 [UNH] Swamp
4 [B] Badlands
4 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
2 [ON] Wooded Foothills

// Creatures
1 [LRW] Mad Auntie
2 [10E] Siege-Gang Commander
1 [LRW] Wort, Boggart Auntie
1 [LE] Gempalm Incinerator
4 [SC] Goblin Warchief
3 [ON] Goblin Sledder
1 [MI] Goblin Tinkerer
4 [ON] Goblin Piledriver
4 [AP] Goblin Ringleader
4 [7E] Goblin Matron
4 [US] Goblin Lackey

// Spells
2 [10E] Cruel Edict (warren wierding)
4 [LRW] Thorn of Amethyst
4 [DS] AEther Vial

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [LRW] Mad Auntie
SB: 1 [MI] Goblin Tinkerer
SB: 1 [10E] Cruel Edict (warren wierding)
SB: 1 [10E] Goblin King
SB: 4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
SB: 1 [ST] Goblin Settler
SB: 1 [ON] Goblin Sharpshooter
SB: 3 [JU] Cabal Therapy

the Goblins settler is for the 43 land matchup and any other random decks packing tabernacle and or volrath's stronghold, ect. I find the 5 'goblin king' package better than splashing green for grips, as it allows for a more stable manabase. (5 kings > 4 plagues) Sledder is also better against bridge/jitte/goose blocking lackey/helping mad auntie survive pyroclasm, but worse against bob/mirror match/mom. (personal choice) Tinkerer > Tin street with warchief on the board, and kills the heck out of naughts, needles, and art lands all day.

I also had a favorable thresh matchup with this build, as my other team mate kyle paster can attest to with his UGr build. chaining cantrips + thorn + wasteland = fail

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Originally Posted by Media314r8

Sex list

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Could you benefit from more MD mad Aunties? Maybe 1 more in a Piledriver's slot (4 is a little excessive)? The Goblin Sledder is pretty solid, and I've always wondered why I haven't seen it more in Goblin lists. I must say,you list does look a little removal-lite. Is that metagamed, of have you just found that you don't need any more? How are the Cabal Therapy without having the 4th?