I vary from 24-26 lands, depending on what I want to run that day. When I run 26 land, just +1 Wasteland -1 Battlegrace Angel.
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I vary from 24-26 lands, depending on what I want to run that day. When I run 26 land, just +1 Wasteland -1 Battlegrace Angel.
Both your lists look pretty solid. The questions you ask here simply depend on your meta. From my experience, in a low combo, medium control, high aggro meta (my meta) I am now forced to run Oblivion Ring mainboard (it often goes to Dark Confidant, very important in the early game). I also notice you guys are running only 4 Armageddons. If you can't get your hands on Ravages of War, Cataclysm is recommended. Windborn Muse is currently in my sideboard, but likely to drop. I used to be a fan, but the only thing I like her against, is Trygon Predator. But there are more ways to deal with Trygon Predator besides Muse. Muse often gets killed, and when she doesn't, 90% of the time your opponent is already locked in, and she's just a beatstick. I myself like Smokestack as a 3-of in my deck. A fourth Smokestack wouldn't be bad, but there is just too much other stuff I want to fit in that slot, that has prio over Smokestack. So in my case, no fourth Smokestack. If you happen to find yourself in a meta where Smokestack isn't really a problem (Aggro Loam, Goblins, The Rock etc.; decks that draw alot of cards and poop out permanents like diarrea) you really don't want the fourth one. Instead get Cataclysm for that slot imo.Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Hammer
Glad you like the list.
To the people running 25 or more land, why?
Unless one of the lands is Tabernacle of Pendral Vale (it doesn't generate mana), I see little reason to go above 24 lands.
We devote enough slots to mana as it is.
An important debate we need to have is...
Wasteland vs. Mishra's Factory.
Which card would you cut below playing a full playset first. Since there's simply no room to play playsets of both.
I play 25 land (no Tabernacles) and I do it because I will play 5-6 Armageddon's depending on the expected meta. I find the ability (or at least a favorable probability) to recover after an 'unprotected' 'Geddon (no Crucible) to be very important in several key matchups.
I don't play full playsets of either Wasteland or Factory. With Wasteland, I found that without Crucible recursion, Wasteland is simply a tempo tool until you hit the much more efficient Armageddon. With Crucible recursion, you really only need one. My preference is to play 3, but I tested 2 and while it's not quite as consistant as I would like it's not horrible. If I don't expect a ton of non-basics (sometimes it happens locally), I'll drop down to 2. Factory is pretty much the same situation. With a Crucible, you only need 1 (2 or more is nice to finish with, but not necessary by any means) and without a Crucible, it's merely a chump blocker or colorless mana. I again prefer 3, but will drop to 2 if I choose to play Angels because of meta-considerations.
This deck is very adaptable to both playstyle and a given meta. I would disagree with Skeggi, though, in that Cataclysm is not a reasonable substitute for Ravages of War. Cataclysm has nowhere near the same effect on the board and it will require you to rework your entire gameplan (and probably your deck) accordingly. I'm not at all saying that you are 'required' to buy Ravages to play this deck, but do not expect Cataclysm to be even remotely close. The bottomline is, what you choose to add depends entirely on your meta. What decks are you trying to beat?
-FB...
I go from 24-26 lands depending on what I have as my business spells. Also, 24 lands is really bleeding edge minimum if you're running 4x Mox Diamond. 25+ lands ensure that I will almost always have a land drop in at every step of the game, a permanent to sac to Smokestack, or to reload after an Armageddon (if my Crucible gets Gripped in response or something stupid like that).
Re: not running full sets of Wasteland, I agree with Fred Bear. However, with Battlegrace Angel, I've found running 4x Factory's a nice thing; I don't always swing with my Angel, but I want max damage out of my attack phase. Multiple Factory's do this for me.
The people who have run Cataclysm in their deck, in the Ravages spot, have been very optimistic about it. In fact, some were considering cutting an Armageddon for an extra Cataclysm. I'm not saying it is a substitute in a real sense; ofcourse it does something different. But the different might not be that bad. I personally also favour Ravages. I also have a very nice near mint English copy of it, so yes, ofcourse I play it. But the people who don't have this luxury may want to try Cataclysm. Armageddon and Ravages are big bombs in this deck. Running less than 5 bombs is almost a crime. But unfortunately you're limited. Cataclysm can be another bomb. A different kind of bomb, but a bomb nonetheless.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fred Bear
I'm running 24 mana producing land myself, and have been wanting to expand to 25. I just don't think I have anything to cut for it. My deck is as tight as it is.
I've tried Cataclysm for a little while. It can be quite good if you're playing 3 Angels. But it's functionally very different from Armageddon IMO. You usually lose several artifacts to Cataclysm (which sucks), but your opponent often loses multiple threats, and almost all their lands making it much harder for them to recover, or deal with the 5/5 angel they are facing down. It's basically an Armaggedon + Wrath of God, which is a pretty devastating combo and perhaps the best one card reset switch this deck could ever ask for (unless the DCI decides to unban Balance that is).
I subbed out the Oblivion Rings from my list (the last post on the prev page), to make room 2 Cataclysm. I'll try this out some more and get back to you.
I guess a 3/3 split between Factory and Wasteland sounds solid, I'll try it out.
I run Battlegrace Angel, so I see no point in playing 4 Factories. Battlegrace encourages me to attack with only one threat at a time. So playing too many threats doesn't really help.
Meh, I've always run 4 Factories in my various builds. Just a personal preference.
The deck staples ie. Land Count/Angels/Trini/Smokestack/Metagame Slots always comes down to preference and playstyle. It as been discussed before (I'm to lazy to look up the page), and it would always be open for discussion, unless someone would come up with an uncontested list, which is highly doubtful.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arsenal
Anyway, I've played with Cataclysm and I would say I like it. It gives you ways out of situations that Armageddon can't handle on its own (ie. A board without a Magus or a ghostly vs a horde of critters). But in order to use it effectively you need to be very well prepared for it, and you also need to have a deeper knowledge of both your deck and your opponent's deck, or you'll end up even more screwed that you already are. At worst it's a dead card, but that's only in certain situations where in you already have a favorable board position, and you're only waiting to drop a Geddon to win.
hey
i didnt play stax a lot and now im building it for a large tourney. so i have some questions:
1. karmic justice - is it really good? i mean pithing needle prevents us from deed do but also stops a lot of other cards while justice doesnt. bad sinergy with chalice at 1, but imo we dont really need chalice at 1 turn 1 against decks playing deed, do we?
2. oblivion ring. what exactly is it for? i understand its a good card with goog cc, but cant find enough place. do we need it? sometmes i see it in sb, what decks is it there against?
3. tabernacles. how more of them do u run? now im testing 3 magus + 1 land, what do u think?
4. if i expect burns, is sphere of law the best sb option agains it? do i really need sthg in sb against it or mu is already good with all my chalices, trinis and geddons?
thx.
1. I've kicked Karmic Justice out of my sideboard. I only sided it in against Deed, and even there it didn't prove useful enough.
2. Oblivion Ring is spot removal. Can be used on anything that is hampering: Deed, Tombstalker, Goyf, Dark Confidant, Trygon Predator. If you're not running them mainboard you should run them in your sideboard at least.
3. I run 4 Tabernacle effects mainboard, 4 Maguses. I got the land in my sideboard; but this is because I'm running no more angels. If you are running angels, I guess the land would be better since you don't need the body as much.
4. If you expect burns, sit back and let the chalices and trinispheres do there work, and smile as you lock them out of the game. No real sideboard required as they have no chance against you anyway.
Good luck :)
I'll throw out an opinion too...Quote:
Originally Posted by ykpon
1) Karmic Justice requires a certain playstyle. I don't play that way. I put Needles in my sideboard and never looked back.
2) O-Ring hits any singular threat. If you expect to need to remove Tarmogoyf's or anything with CC>3, they are much more useful than EE or even Powder Keg. I second Skeggi's comment that if you don't maindeck them, they should be in the side.
3) I play 3 Magus and haven't needed more. I would add the 4th if I expect a lot of aggro. If there's so much aggro that I'd want to start adding the lands, I'd want to know more about what kind of aggro.
4) If you expect a ton of burn, put 2-3 Sphere of Law in the sideboard. Laugh maniacally when you play it. Otherwise, as Skeggi points out, every card except Prison pretty much plays against Burn.
-FB...
Skeggi, Fred Bear, thx for ur opinion
heres my actual list:
4 Flagstones of Trokair
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
6 Plains
4 Wasteland
3 Mishra's Factory
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
3 Magus of the Tabernacle
3 Exalted Angel
4 Trinisphere
4 Smokestack
4 Armageddon
4 Mox Diamond
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Ghostly Prison
SB: 4 Sphere of Resistance
SB: 4 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 4 Suppression Field
SB: 3 Oblivion Ring
my meta is: a lot of ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh/fish/dreadstill decks, 2-3 belchers, 1-2 dragon stompys, 1 spring tide, 2-3 agroloam, 1-2 ichorid, at least one landstill, about 2-3 burns, 1 bg control, 1-2 goblins and some random decks
what do u think about this build depending on described meta?
thx
I don't quite get those 4 Sphere of Resistance.Quote:
my meta is: a lot of ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh/fish/dreadstill decks, 2-3 belchers, 1-2 dragon stompys, 1 spring tide, 2-3 agroloam, 1-2 ichorid, at least one landstill, about 2-3 burns, 1 bg control, 1-2 goblins and some random decks
what do u think about this build depending on described meta?
thx
You have enough in the way of combo MD and that's the only MU I see Spheres can really shine.
Against Gobs and Burn.dec I'd suggest 2 SB Sphere of Law (Also helps against D.Stompy, Belcher {Tokens} and Loam..a lil).
Your Thresh MU is positive already so no need to consider SB cards here.
Due to Dreadstill, D. Stompy and Aggro Loam I'd strongly suggest running 2 O. Rings main and -1 Smokestack (it's not overly superb in your meta anyway) and -1 Land (25 mana lands is 1 too many).
Your Ichorid MU is positive as well (Tabernacle effects, Prison) which is why I'd go down to 3 Crypts in the board (you really only need them against Loam).
With the free SB space you could add 3 Defense Grids (I love these guys), they'll help against Hightide, LS, Thresh/Fish and so on.
Hope that helps.
Klaus
Actually, klaus, I would disagree with your assessment of the Spheres for this meta. In the meta ykpon describes, Sphere of Resistance is probably very strong. Many of the decks that are outlined in this meta run very mana efficient or mana light. Sphere comes down fast enough that the disruption from it will often be enough to win several games due to 'virtual' mana screw over the course of a tournament.
I would second klaus on the inclusion of Sphere of Law. As I said in a previous post, it is very good against burn. In a meta with Dragon Stompy, Belcher (probably with Warrens), Burn, and Goblins, Sphere of Law would probably be very worthwhile.
Another card you may want to think about is Guardian of the Guildpact. It's not a 'wow' card by any means, but it will survive all day long in your meta.
Without making changes to the mainboard, I would suggest a sideboard of...
3 Pithing Needle (Deed, Belcher, etc.)
2 Sphere of Law (Any red win condition)
2-3 Defense Grid (Landstill)
3-2 Sphere of Resistance (Any low mana)
3 Oblivion Ring (You will probably board these in against everything)
2 Guardian of the Guildpact (Anywhere you need another blocker/win except BG)
Just a couple of thoughts,
-FB...
needles instead of suppression fields in ur sb. are they really better? i mean needle is better against a single deed in play and doesnt hurt our manlands, but decks running deeds also run a lot of other cards like fetchlands, tops, survivals, strongholds, sakuras, manlands etc. anyway a small quetion: should i board such cards in against goblins or i dont care about vial that much?Quote:
Originally Posted by Fred Bear
sphere of law. ok, thats what i had before u told me to remove it from sb and to play oblivion rings)
defense grid. it seems nice sb for landstill matchup instead of tabernacles but ls isnt that popular here. should i board them in against threshlike decks? they run about 10 counterspells and a lot of other instants but what exactly should i remove for grids after g1? and should i remove anything really?
sphere of resistance. obvious replacement for prisons or tabernacles vs any combo. like defense grid it also seems good against thresh but i dont know what to sb out again.
oblivion ring. as u have said it is a card i will board in against everything. i cant understand it. if i need it vs all decks but some combo ones then maybe to run it md? but i still cant find enough place: im satisfied with my manabase and dont want to cut it so the only thing i can remove is one of smokestacks. also playing rings now im depending only on ur words and deckcheck builds. personally i think i need rings only in loam matchup against assaults and megafat vores/crushers because there arent many predators and tombstalkers here. but ok ill try it)
guardian of guildpact. ill test this if i can find it. seems ok, mb unneeded though.
no grave hate. right, ichorid mu doesnt seem very difficult. but how is loam matchup now? i think our plan is to resolve fast chalice for 2 and then lock them with smokestack or something else. but if they play black (and here in snow-covered russia they usually do) then it looks like they can easily disrupt u and then kill u with one of their 17/17s before u have time to say "wtf", cant they?
i would be very much obliged to you (ok, i copypasted this from a dictionary) if u tell me ur sb strategy and general gameplan against thresh and especially agroloam.
thx)
I prefer Needle to Suppression Field, but I don't typically see enough decks that Field makes sense for me. Field definitely has a place in fetch-dominated metas.
Grid is good versus control, but it fills the same role as Sphere in your meta. I think Sphere is a stronger card for you, but Grid is better versus the tougher match-ups (like Landstill).
I would personally replace the Angels with the O-Rings, but that is definitely my personal preference. I would also think you could also go down to 3 Smokestacks in the meta you've described without too much difference.
I like Guardian, but I play a lot less 'win conditions' maindeck (I only play 3 Magus and 3 Factories).
If you resolve a Chalice for 2 and an Armageddon versus Loam, they will scoop unless they are wasting time (or have a very unconventional list).
As far as sideboard strategy goes, it is my belief that you have to identify what you are comfortable playing without in certain match-ups. As an example, I will sometimes board out Smokestack (3) and Trinisphere (2) against Threshold and replace them with Sphere of Resistance (3) and Guardian of the Guildpact (2). I know a lot of people who would not subscribe to this method, but it has worked very well for me since I am very comfortable playing without Smokestack and depending on the opponent's knowledge of the match-up, Sphere can be back-breaking for Threshold. Once you know what you are comfortable doing with the deck, you will see pretty quickly how to board in and out.
-FB...
Hello,
Tezzeret + Armageddon,
i didn't know where to post but here goes
MANA
4 seat of synod
3 flagstones of trokair
4 tundra
3 wasteland
3 ancient tomb
2 city of traitors
4 island
23
4 talisman of progress
4 mox diamond
8
SPELLS
3 pendrell mists
2 propaganda
4 armageddon
9
4 trinishpere
3 chalice of the void
3 smokestack
3 crucible of worlds
13
BEATS
3 magus of tabernacle
4 tezzeret the seeker
7
some additional notes:
- the propaganda slots could be changed to sphere of resistance
- make 4 pendrell mists, remove magus of tabernacle, add 4 sphere of resistance
comments?
SB cards are still on the works
Hi. I don't really know where to start...first off: you have no chance if your opponent plays any kind of nonbasic hate: recurring wasteland, back to basics, blood moon, price of progress, ruination, the whole lot will simply mean your opponent wins. So I guess I'm trying to say: your manabase looks vulnerable :wink:Quote:
Originally Posted by _erbs_
Second; I don't think there's a good reason to run Pendrell Mists and Magus of the Tabernacle. The Magus is clearly the better of the two, but running 7 Tabernacle effects is simply ridiculous. Since I feel this list really wants to play Tezzeret, I would put in two Engineered Explosives and perhaps a Tormod's Crypt or Pithing Needle.
Third: you can take Mindlock Orb out of your list. Mindlock Orb + Flagstones / Tezzeret != combo.
Fourth: best to replace those Tangle Wires with taxing effects like Ghostly Prison, or what you have, Propaganda. Ofcourse these have absolutely no synergy with Tezzeret. They don't protect him, they can't be tutored by him, and they don't turn into 5/5's. But you will need them or you will die against most aggro match-ups.
Fifth: 4(four!!) Tezzeret seems much for a 'legendary'. I know it's a must-draw, but 3 is probably the best number.
Sixth: any Stax deck running Tezzeret seems to scream for Academy Ruins. Where's yours?
Seventh: Crucible of Worlds. You run Armageddon Stax without it? Good luck...
Eighth: Jester's Cap? That's a clear no. No no no. Not even in your sideboard, no. Did I mention 'no'?
Ninth: Wrath of God seems like a good hoser; but the power of Armageddon Stax lies in making things expensive and mana denial. Armageddon + Tabernacle effect clears pretty effectively; and what's more: more permanently. Also, with this manabase, you'll also find the :w::w: hard to get.
All in all I must conclude, as I've concluded before, that Tezzeret seems powerful, but not in an Armageddon Stax shell. Probably not in any Stax shell. Try Affinity perhaps. I hope this helps. Good luck :smile:
Ok, so i'm planning on playing stax this saturday, I have access to most cards, including two tabernacle lands, except for aura's of silence and some of the cards from the new set. Any suggestions overall? I've been out of the reading and testing for the last couple of weeks so are there any new techs that seems to be working for you in testing? I'm also trying to figure out what the meta will be like overall. I'm expecting decent amounts of thresh, survival, and landstill. My deck as of right now is as follows, but I'm up for some last min. suggestions, changes, or some quick playtestings:
4 Ancient tomb
3 City of Traitors
3 Flagstones
4 Wastelands
2 Mishra's Factories
1 Horizon Canopy
1 kor Haven
2 Tabernacle
6 Plains
(yes, i know its 26, but its been working well with the 2 tabernacles, i have no problem going down to 25 and then 1 tabernacle sb)
3 Exalted Angel
2 Magus of the Tabernacle
3 Windborn (windborn keeps going in and out, all depends on the meta, will most likely come out)
3 Smokestacks
4 Crucible of the Worlds
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
4 Ghostly Prison
4 Armageddon (don't have any ravages...)
(that leaves 3 spots unless I'm forgetting something completely, which I very well could be since I'm sitting at work) I had Cataclysm as a 2 of, but I seemed to sb it out in most matches.
I usually use Karmic Justice, Pithing Needle, S. Field and O. Rings almost always in the sb/mb. I'm just looking for a build that consistent, and decent for a deverse meta, and don't have all the time I'd like to test before Saturday. Thanks!