It will always baffle me how gamers cannot spell "lose".Quote:
Originally Posted by useL
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It will always baffle me how gamers cannot spell "lose".Quote:
Originally Posted by useL
Yes, because that is how I spend my time on the MTG-forums. Spell checking all the words before I post so that I might not offend you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Malakai
This is the Esper Stonblade list I've been playing with lately, and likely playing at SCG Cincinnati. I'll just give a little rundown on some of the cards, especially the one-ofs.
// Lands 23
1 Academy Ruins
4 Flooded Strand
2 Island
2 Marsh Flats
1 Plains
4 Polluted Delta
1 Scrubland
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
2 Wasteland
// Creatures 8
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Stoneforge Mystic
// Instants 14
4 Brainstorm
1 Counterspell
3 Force of Will
1 Intuition
1 Spell Pierce
4 Swords to Plowshares
// Sorceries 9
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Lingering Souls
2 Thoughtseize
1 Vindicate
1 Supreme Verdict
// Artifacts 3
1 Batterskull
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Umezawa's Jitte
// Planeswalkers 3
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Sideboard:
SB: 2 Path to Exile
SB: 1 Force of Will
SB: 1 Hydroblast
SB: 1 Disenchant
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Sword of Feast and Famine
SB: 1 Inquisition of Kozilek
SB: 1 Cabal Therapy
SB: 1 Perish
SB: 3 Geist of Saint Traft
I have been extremely happy with it as of late. I've tested against Junk, Jund, most BUG variants, RUG Delver, and some other Tier decks (though I should probably play more against combo).
First and foremost, the pair of Wastelands have been all-stars for me, as it allows another angle of attack. Usually games 2 and 3, my opponent tries to play around Wastelands by fetching for basics, which can make for a pseudo-mind-trick / mana screw. I know of at least a couple games where they've fetched for basics, and a timely Vindicate puts them so far back that they can't catch up. On that note, the one-of Vindicate has been great. I know some people have been opting out of having it, but I couldn't imagine leaving home without it.
I definitely think 3 Lingering Souls / 1 Intuition is the right way to go, even in a Meta full of Deathrite Shamans. Intuition is especially great after sideboard; being able to grab 3 Surgical Extraction is amazing.
The miser Spell Pierce and Counterspell are really good, and again play more "mind-tricks" on your opponent, so they never really feel safe tapping out when I have U or UU open for Pierce and CS, respectively.
Supreme Verdict has pulled its weight for sure, especially against RUG, BUG, Jund, etc. (and if nothing else it gives me a blue card to pitch to Force).
As much as I'd like to fit the 4th Force in the MB, I wouldn't know what to cut, and I'm overall satisfied with it in the SB.
I used to play 1-2 Vendilion Clique (along with 3 Snapcasters), but I finally decided to cut it and I haven't looked back. It allows me to cut the Karakas as well. I might put them back in if Show and Tell decks become a little more popular, but I am still not overly satisfied with having a non-tutorable, Wastelandable Plains in my deck. The fourth Snapcaster has been much better so far.
For the Sideboard:
Most stuff is pretty basic. The Hydroblast I usually bring in against Jund, Goblins, Storm (usually if it's running Burning Wish). Disenchant has been good, with Sylvan Library being my favorite target to hit with it. The Geists have been good, though I'm still not sure what matchups exactly to bring them in against. Just any deck that plays StP? They're good against Miracles, the mirror-match, and most control matchups, but other than that I'm not real sure when to bring them in. Regarding the Sideboard, I would really like to play another Perish, but I wouldn't know what to cut.
Anyway, I'd appreciate any feedback you guys have, negative or positive. I was running Dark Confidants, but a few FoW and Jace flips, and I realized that they needed to go.
Thanks!
--
Jacob
Not a big fan of Wasteland in this deck here. While the deck can operate well with few lands, it can operate even better with more. Randomly screwing someone doesn' sound like it will work often, with only 2 Wastelands. Having an answer to manlands and Maze of Ith is nice though, but I wouldn't expect many Mazes in the next weeks. It's just too few Wastelands to cripple someone and the deck is not fast enough to take advantage of it.
Intuition might be too cute, but it also might be pretty good in all these grind mirrors that you will have to play.
Hydroblast in the sideboard sounds terrible. Definately exchange it with a card that does something, maybe Spell Pierce. Or the 2nd Perish that you want to play.
Geist is awesome. Whenever you feel like "counterspells and discard will probably suck, I need strong topdecks" board it in. Also board it in against any combo deck. Best clock you can get and FOW fodder is always welcome.
Well the Wastelands are obviously not mainly for trying to mana screw somebody. Being able to take out problem lands is just so good, along with the possibility of randomly screwing them. I was actually running 1 Dust Bowl before, but the Wastelands have been so much better, so for now I'll be keeping them in. I'll be testing more, however.Quote:
Originally Posted by dunkle_stille
The Intuition is great. I'd definitely recommend testing it to see what you think for yourself.
I can see taking out the Hydroblast, though I do really like it against Bloodbraid Elf, goblins, sulfuric vortex (which destroys us), etc. I might try a spell Pierce, spell Snare, or a flusterstorm in that slot.
And alright, I'll try that with Geist. I just feel like I shouldn't board it in against any decks with a lot of creatures, as it becomes 4 damage for 3 mana at that point. Is this correct?
On a side note, has anyone been having trouble with Jund? I don't get completely blown out, but a turn 1 thoughseize, turn 2 Hymn, followed by a threat is really hard to deal with, and really common in a deck that plays 4 Thoughtseize and 2-4 Hymns.
Thanks for the input!
thra1l, most lists I've seen so far running that many 1 ofs like Vindacte, Verdict in the main tend to also stick a Ponder there to increase their chances of finding that one answer. I'm also running with 2 Wastelands, thus 23 lands, so it doesn't leave me with enough space to squeeze both the 1 ofs and a Ponder. How's that working out for you without the additional cantrip?
Main Deck:
Regarding Wasteland:
Wasteland is needed to win against Maze of Ith (though this card has become a lot rarer).
More importantly, it is not used as a tempo play or to screw people. It is very powerful to just cut down mana for a single turn so you can ignore certain hand cards in opponents hand. For example, you waste the single red untapped mana post board to play around REB before resolving Jace or you waste the single blue to ignore the spell snare. Wastleand also enables taxing counters to work quite a bit longer and gives you more time in the combo match ups.
Regarding Explosives:
While Explosives is a flexible card, it was always the anti Mongoose card in this deck. With RUG playing 4 Stifle now (they used to play stifleless for quite some time) I have come to dislike the card. I am now playing a third equipment maindeck instead to account for the influx of discard and Abrupt decay into the meta.
Regading Vindicate:
Strongly agree. This is an awesome card, would never cut it form the main and board it out very rarely.
Supreme Verdict:
I dislike it as a one off in the Main deck. I feel Esper blade is more of a (slow) mid range deck. I want to disrupt my opponents early creatures and then gain board presence with a few souls token and threaten the equipment win. I play a fifth spot removal over this (atm Disfigure) so I can handle DRS, Lackey, Mother of Runes, Dark Confidant more reliably.
Intuition:
Also also do notlike intuition because I feel it is too slow.
Regarding SB choices:
Vendilion Clique/ Geist:
I strongly feel each Esperblade deck include either Clique or Geist. I like Clique because it kills Mongoose in Combat and is powerful vs Combo. I feel Geist is too slow in Legacy especially without mana acceleration. Nevertheless the card attacks for 6 a turn and is a true beatstick. I guess I dislike the variance of the card too much.
Hydroblast:
I never thought about the application vs Vortex. I think this will make me play this card in the future (it is also great vs lackey, burn, Burning wish combo, and Jund).
Countersuite:
I also like to board one or two Negate vs. Combo and Control matchups. MD I usually play 2 Spell pierce but I am thinking about replacing one for a Spell Snare eventhough tis could make Liliana somewhat of a problem if you can not find Lingering Souls.
Discard:
I do not play more discard usually.
Sweeper:
2 Perish + 1 Zealous Persecution I like the most.
Everytime AV kicked in I won. I was down to 1-2 life points on several occasions but drawing 4 cards in a turn gave me a complete grip over the game. Losing black in favor of straight UW allows me to operate on basics, and I think that's really important against RUG. I have never felt like Esperblade was very strong against RUG and BUG tempo decks at all and I feel like a combination of basic lands, wastelands, and supreme verdict is a step in the right direction.Quote:
Originally Posted by bilb_o
RUG used to be scary, then they printed Rest in Peace.
* likeQuote:
Originally Posted by Malakai
It's actually been working out quite well so far. I originally wanted to put 1-2 Ponders in with all of my 1-ofs, but maybe I've just gotten lucky or something, because I really haven't felt the need for it yet. I would still like to test 1-2, because they become even better games 2-3, because you can dig for your Sideboard cards. I don't know what I would take out to even test it though. The Supreme Verdict or EE maybe? I dunno, what do you guys think?Quote:
Originally Posted by bilb_o
Yea, like I said, Wasteland has been great. I don't try to use it as a Tempo card, but sometimes it just happens that way lol. And it really does work well when my opponent tries to fetch basics after game 1. Also, I generally mull a hand with Wasteland unless i have 2 more duals/fetches.Quote:
Originally Posted by marax
Explosives: I've really liked EE so far, but maybe I can cut one for a Ponder, especially since I have S. Verdict to deal with Mongoose. I'm not entirely certain about this decision, because EE has never disappointed.
Supreme Verdict: It's been really good. I'm not entirely attached to having it main, so it's another possible candidate to replace with Ponder. I do want either EE or Verdict main, though, I think.
Intuition can be slow, but I've never really been unhappy to see it, unless I topdeck it when I'm behind anyway. Which even then it's not bad, being able to buy myself a few turns with all of the Spirit tokens it enables. And personally I love getting 3 Surgical Extractions lol. ;)
V. Clique, I used to love it, but I really do like Geist more as a sideboard card.
I think I am going to take out either the Cabal Therapy or Inquisition from my sideboard and put in another Perish. That should help my matchup against Jund, too.
What exactly is your Sideboard at the moment?
Thanks again!
Here are my thoughts on the discussion:
- Wasteland: Maybe I just don't see Maze of Ith decks in my meta, but this seems kind of loose. Our mana is really tight as-is, and we can almost always do something with extra lands. I do appreciate the applications against 12-post but I am not changing my maindeck to beat that deck.
- Supreme Verdict: I like having the singleton in the main. Even though it isn't relevant in every MU, having an uncounterable Wrath effect is really good against a sizable portion of the field.
- Engineered Explosives: It can be a little slow but the ability to handle anything from 0-3 is awesome. It is also a miser's G1 out to Storm/Belcher.
- Ponder: I would run a second one if I could fit it but I prefer to run a few more singleton bombs.
- Perish: While Perish is powerful, I don't know if I would double up on it because it is somewhat narrow and we need a flexible board. Unless I was certain to see a ton of Green decks I would run EE, Verdict, Humility, Path, Disfigure, Darkblast, Zealous Persecution, or any number of other things over the second copy.
- For the people considering Hydroblast, have you thought of Celestial Purge? While Purge doesn't do anything against combo it does handle all of the same permanents as Hydroblast plus Liliana, Confidant, Deathrite, Tombstalker, etc. etc.
I am pretty happy with Vidianto's maindeck but I am working on tweaking my sideboard and wanted some input.
Venser over V Clique: I have been running a 2nd Clique in my sideboard and it has been generally useful where I want it (combo/control) but I was thinking of replacing it with Venser. Venser is flexible and gives you outs to many situations that would be impossible otherwise. On the other hand he costs 4, is just a 2/2, and has no evasion. Clique is a pretty quick clock on its own but is a beating when combined with any equipment.
Humility over Verdict/EE: I have 4 slots in my board dedicated solely to creature MUs (Path, Persecution, and Perish are the other 3) and I was thinking of running a Humility here as well. Humility can neuter a lot of the big stupid creature decks and is a beating with Lingering Souls. However 4 is pretty steep for a sideboard card. Thoughts?
So after the crazy amount of Jund that's been showing up lately, what are our best maindeck/sidedeck answers to "fair" decks like these?
In all honesty, 4 STP + Snapcaster Mages sucks balls to play. I know there's some loss in value with DRS everywhere, but at that point, I'd just run more 1 CMC removal.
-Matt
I think planeswalkers like Elspeth is pretty good to come in for this matchup. Thoughts? She can easily defend herself from other creatures, but punishing fire is such trouble against all our creatures.. I'm not sure if the 1 CMC removal is the right answer against that deck. More Explosives can get multiple creatures and permanents at a time, EE on 2 could be something.Quote:
Originally Posted by sdematt
I've been playing alot against storm using senseis divining top as their filter. This disables my discard as they will just play from the top. Any suggestions how to handle this? Should I swap discard into flusterstorms or do you have any other suggestions?
Another option you may wish to consider is 2 Baleful Strixes in the SB. There's also crazy synergy with Academy Ruins if you're running that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jessenator
They play Grim Lavamancer, Lightning Bolt, Liliana and Abrupt Decay. How can Baleful Strix be any good? They even get an artifact in the graveyard so that their goyf grows.Quote:
Originally Posted by Amazing Larry
Baleful Strix can also murder Goyf, and Bloodbraid Elf. It can recur with Academy out, and it replaces itself with a card draw. Card advantage is one of the best ways to combat Jund as they have plenty of it, and Stoneblade needs to keep up. As for an artifact going to the yard to grow their Goyfs, trust me when I say that Strix is not the first artifact of Stoneblade's that they want to blow up. Against Abrupt Decay, we are almost always going to have an artifact in our yard. The point of Strix is to fight them with a grindy, creature that replaces itself, doubles as removal, can possibly recur, and can pick up a sword/jitte and swing away.Quote:
Originally Posted by useL
I actually really like this idea. I'm going to try out 2 in my SB. Even if Strix dies to a Bolt or Abrupt Decay, they lose card advantage while we effectively lose none. And that just allows for a higher chance of our Stoneforge surviving.Quote:
Originally Posted by Amazing Larry
Also having 2 Perish in the sideboard is amazing. Though for me, I might replace one of the Perishes with a Baleful Strix. Either way, I'll be testing it soon, and I'll post what I find out.
Baleful Strix seems pretty terrible against P-Fire. Planning on recurring Strix with Ruins against a deck packing 4 Wastelands is a pipe dream. You won't have the mana to do so or they will just waste your Ruins. Either way the advantage created by Strix isn't significant enough to warrant a sideboard slot. Why would you cut a Perish for Strix? Perish has a much higher potential for card advantage and does a lot more in the match ups where you want creature hate.
Strix also doesn't address the fundamental problem against Jund, which is that their deck is really well designed to grind out card advantage. If you want to beat Jund you either look at ways of disrupting their card advantage or creating your own. You want cards that are flexible and can function to stop their engines (Relic, Rest in Peace, Hydroblast, Celestial Purge) or create card advantage for yourself (Souls, Timely Reinforcement, sweepers, planeswalkers).
I would not cut Perish for Strix, I would cut some of the less important sideboard options some lists run, like extra discard or extra spell pierces. They do run 3-4 Wastes, but that is not an argument against running Ruins itself. It happens to be a nice synergy but Strix does not need Ruins to be effective, nor do Ruins only interact with Strix. Strix also plays really nicely against RUG as well, so there's that. However, I find that Esperblade is really favored against Jund anyway, and honestly Perish and Spuls are the best things against them, Strix is just a cool bit of tech that I've found to be decent.Quote:
Originally Posted by apistat_commander
I personally use 2 copies of Timely Reinforcements and 2 copies of Divert out of my sideboard to combat Jund. I have also added some Glacial Fortress, a Crucible of World and increased my Wasteland count for Punishing Fire and Choke. Here is the Stoneblade list I use after having adapted to Jund and BUG decks:
Creatures (10)
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendilion Clique
Instants (18)
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
2 Counterspell
Others (9)
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Detention Sphere
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Lands (23)
3 Wasteland
1 Academy Ruins
1 Karakas
2 Glacial Fortress
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Tundra
3 Island
1 Plains
Sideboard (15)
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Flusterstorm
2 Divert
2 Path to Exile
1 Disenchant
2 Timely Reinforcements
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Rest in Peace
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
For Jund, I do -2 Counterspell/Spell Snare (depends if on play or draw), -2 Pierce, -4 FoW, -1 Sphere for +2 Divert, +2 Path, +2 Timely, 1 Verdict, 1 Disenchant, 1 SoFaF. Divert is great for anything using Hymn and/or Decay
I agree Divert/Misdirection is also awesome against Jund, as well as Team America. I can see Timely Reinforcements as a good tool there as well. I still don't like running Wastelands in this deck, but I suppose if you're not splashing black, it may be OK. Hitting Groves can be nice.Quote:
Originally Posted by Qweerios
I use Timely Reinforcements (for my Miracle Control deck, but same theory applies) against Jund (and pretty much any aggressive-ish deck) and it's absolutely bonkers. The tokens give you outs to Liliana, the 6 life is HUGE in trying to stabilize, and if you Snap it back? DELICIOUS. I've been using Timely Reinforcements as a SB card in pretty much any deck that can support it (Junk, Blade Control, Miracle Control, etc).
I second this. It's extremely good in the Jund matchup and any decks of similar nature.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arsenal
Also against Jund, Ancestral Vision seems to be a good idea. Fight attrition with attrition. While they will be busy trying to discard your hand and land disrupt you, you just stall until it pays off.
I never had trouble against Jund with the list that won the last GP. Sure, sometimes they go Hymn Hymn and win, or have too many threats to be answered, but most of your board influencing cards generate enough advantage to overhelm them and well, you get to play Brainstorm while Jund doesn't. Unless some nut draws are involved the matchup should be favored for Esper. I don't really see a reason to tweak the deck for that matchup or add weird SB cards ( Timely is ok though ).
The Punishing Fire version eats us though. They sometimes lose for not being able to cast Brainstorm, but once they got the engine active there's no way out.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dunkle_stille
Surgical Extraction / Extirpate effects work well against Punishing Fire.
Grove of the Burnwillows is one of the top reasons why I up'ed the Wasteland count to 3 and threw in Crucible. It just happens to prey upon BUG and RUG as well. As far as losing the black splash, I only really miss it against certain combo decks and in the mirror really. Not going for a black source on turn 1 has been massive against anything packing mana denial. I think what I miss the most is Engineered Plague in the SB.
I'm aware of that. Problem is that you have to pull the trick early, otherwise they will just dodge it by recurring them.Quote:
Originally Posted by JimmyC27
While I still think Esper is superior, I definitly agree that having to get a black source turn one for discard, only to have it wasted, really sucks. I think I am going to put a basic Swamp in, which should help quite a bit. It would also help with Lingering Souls, as I've been wasted off of black mana and unable to flashback many times. I think I'll cut either a Polluted Delta or a Marsh Flats for it, going down to 9 fetches (which I'm fine with).Quote:
Originally Posted by Qweerios
How has the Crucible and 3 Wastelands been? I really like it on paper.
You can always just do it in response to the trigger, though, which shouldn't be too hard to do. I personally haven't played against Punishing Jund (just traditional Jund, which I obviously don't side in Surgicals for), so I have no idea if it's worth it to side in the Surgicals/Extirpates. I already have trouble trying to side in everything I want (1 Path, 2 Perish, 1 Hydroblast, 1 Disenchant, 1 SoFaF, 2 Baleful Strix) so siding in 3 more cards would be very difficult I think. It could be worth it, but I dunno.Quote:
Originally Posted by dunkle_stille
Haven't tested Baleful Strix against Jund yet (my testing partner dismantled Jund and built Junk instead, and I haven't got a chance to proxy it yet), but I did test it against Junk, which it definitly performed well against.
My sideboard at the moment is:
1 Force of Will
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Geist of Saint Traft
1 Hydroblast
1 Path to Exile
1 Disenchant
2 Perish
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
2 Baleful Strix
Overall, if I may give my output on this, I found the crucible to be too clunky for the deck, personally, but the wastelands are ok. My take is that you don't actually need all that to beat jund if you understand the matchup well enough, and make sure to survive their unslaught before they get hellbent. So I am kind of on dunkle_stille's side in this.Quote:
Originally Posted by thra1l
I can see that. I mean, I don't play the U/W version very often, and I think the Esper list is too tight to fit it. And yea, I just try to keep hands with good amounts of removal and I can do okay against Jund unless they get insane amounts of discard which just kinda rapes me. Either way, I'm okay with the matchup, as consistency is key, and that's one thing that Jund is not. Sideboard Disenchant is good, because a resolved Sylvan Library without a way to get rid of it usually means we lose. Wastelands have been really good overall for me. There are some matchups where I would rather just have colored mana, but it doesn't happen too ofter, as long as I keep hands with a good amount of lands. I don't understand how some people are going down to 22 lands; that just seems absurd to me. I love hands where I have 4 lands, because that means that I'll be able to cast my answers that I draw -- sometimes you just gotta have faith in a good deck. :cool:Quote:
Originally Posted by ThediscoPower
-Jacob
What are people doing for the mirror with UW (red splash)?
I think that's a better matchup for Esper-oriented decks. Solely due to Lingering Souls, that card is just bonkers against Control. I haven't had many problems against them. Try to hold your Stoneforges until later on in the game since most of them pack Spell Snares in the mainboard I think. Basically they can't really do anything progressive with their bombs (planeswalkers) without having to deal with Souls first. Planeswalkers are good, Geists are amazing here as well.
There has been a rise of Sneak Show with sb Leyline of Sanctity in my LGS so my hand disruption and Clique in response to Show and Tell or Sneak Attack has been rendered useless.
Any playing strategies or sb variations advice any one can offer?
for me i think you can sb, peacekeeper and humility if your meta is filled with Show and Tell Variants.Quote:
Originally Posted by Unsummon
I've been wanting to try 4 DRS instead of 4 Snapcasters in my main. Has anyone tried this yet, and if so how has it fared?
note: I use 3 Lili's over JTMS, so they could help me get her out turn 2.
I like venser-karakas against show and tell (especially against the omniscience variants), so you can show and tell venser for ever against what he throws at you. it's harder against sneak attack, but humility is better against it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Unsummon
I'm finding Show and Tell is not that bad to deal with, but its Sneak Attack, Griselbrand draw 14, drop a lotus petal sac for red, Drop Emrakrul: gg
Game 1 is not a problem with 4 main deck hand disruption and 2 spell pierce, 3 FOW, 1 counter spell, 2 Clique and 1 Karakas. The problem is Game 2 + 3 when Leyline is dropped pre-turn 1 and my hand disruption and cliques strategy are nullified.
My current SB is
1 Duress
1 Humility
2 Path to Exile
1 Extirpate
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Disenchant
1 Spell Pierce
1 Force of Will (3 in the main)
1 Pithing Needle
3 Geist of St. Traft
1 Pithing Needle
I need to have a solid SB against Sneak Show, so I'll take any suggestions. there are 2 actively played at my LGS. I need to board out the hand disruption and potentially the Cliques for games 2 + 3