I like this list. Only thing is to many PFire and I don't know about Garruk with 3 Green mana.Quote:
Originally Posted by maharis
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I like this list. Only thing is to many PFire and I don't know about Garruk with 3 Green mana.Quote:
Originally Posted by maharis
Maybe easier, i posted that list from Dan Mercer going top8 during SCG. I tried to use the link, but it doesn't connect or something.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ganfar
Anyway, pretty standard list aside from the 0 Liliana and multiple Huntmasters and Witnesses.
Running 2 Huntmasters has been good in the past. Opponents always had more trouble removing the second copy. Also the clock it presents vs combo decks is solid.
I can understand running 0 Liliana, but i tried that and was actually missing her.
Also 4 PFire has been pretty nice.
The sideboard looks more interesting. It feels like it is missing some fundemental numbers like more slaughter games and golfari charm (or toxic deluge). Also Choke and Mindbreak Trap are standard.
Really nice that PFire NicFit has made T8 at a SCG event.
Creatures (14)
1 Deathrite Shaman
2 Eternal Witness
2 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Primeval Titan
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thragtusk
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
Planeswalkers (1)
1 Garruk, Primal Hunter
Lands (23)
3 Forest
2 Mountain
2 Swamp
1 Badlands
2 Bayou
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Taiga
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wooded Foothills
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
Spells (22)
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Punishing Fire
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Maelstrom Pulse
Sideboard
1 Pithing Needle
1 Dryad Militant
2 Choke
1 Golgari Charm
2 Mindbreak Trap
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Life from the Loam
1 Slaughter Games
2 Thoughtseize
In almost all cases, I see Nissa as a better Wood Elves. I can't think of too many instances where Wood Elves putting the land directly into play separates both cards enough. I know that's the ramp-difference, but again, I can't see this point pushing wood elves > nissa given all she does. Remember, there will be times you cast her for 3 then make the land-drop she gave you (making her an improved Wood Elves in my mind).
The bigger issue is whether she's needed in the deck in the first place. I can see her making an impact for sure.
Lol, and here I was thinking how shitty Nissa was compared to Wood Elves. Not in the weird world of NicFit she ain't! I can see her replacing a Wood Elves in Scapeshift builds. Gives you another permanent with some potential.
However, the immediate land provided by Wood elves could be a matter of life or death. Casting a Tusk/scape a turn sooner can be mandatory.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanti
I would also point out that the main issue (as already stated by others) I see with Nissa is the "search for a basic forest".
The need for "mountains" in Scape is real when it comes to combo.
I truly don't see a use case where I would GSZ for Nissa rather than a Wood Elves. Period.
Anyway, the card does have some potential but I would rather use it in a straight G/B shell where you can effectively use its ability and where ramping is not a matter of life or death.
My 2 cents.
I can't wait to try 1 copy of the new Nissa in my straight B/G Nic Fit. She seems like an excellent fit for a grindy deck with Veteran-ramp, several basic forests and full Green Sun-package.
Whay is best Vraska or 5 drop Garruk? Vraska is easy to cast and have removel. Garruk draw cards and Make a 3/3 every turn. Hmm..Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobmans
While Garruk, PH provides raw power to the field and can give you very raw cardadvantage, it is kind of linear. Flat as you may. The card draw is conditional and can put you in situations where an opponent can prevent you from draw (keeping the creatures away) plus it does not provide an answer now. Now is often what is critical in some matchups. Vraska does remove a non land permanent now. Also does Vraska provide negative cardadvantage once your opponent will start attacking in while she has "deathtouch". Also this is conditional. Opponent can still choose to attack you instead of Vraska, keeping situations out of reach that has to be dealt with sooner or later. The good news is that she will win the game ignoring her to long dodging lifepoints even. Garruk also wins the game if he sticks. I will also add that (2)GGG casting cost shouldn't be that hard in a standard manabase. So there is not a defenitive answer to which is best. I think you might want to imagine either against different archetypes and figure which would do more work. Ie against Miracles, OmniTell, BUG Delver or D&T.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ganfar
Here is my first try at the NicFit world, I think I am hedging a little too much on the years of Junk that I played. I am choosing to play dark confidant as it is a criminally underplayed card right now and when paired with the Divining Top will minimize life loss and maximize value. Dark confidant also gives us a great turn 2 when our explorer gets swords/countered.
Gaddock Teeg/Discard/Liliana is a decent plan against combo and Miracles while discard and pernicious deed is our hedge against aggro decks.
From limited testing, very few decks can hang if we get our manabase established and that seems to be the benefit of playing a NicFit list.
The goal of the deck is to stabilize mana, ramp to PrimeTime to assemble the two towers and then use Thragtusk/Siege Rhino recursion to seal the deal. I have a Thragtusk/Sigarda flex depending on the amount of red removal/white removal in the meta.
The list:
Creatures(16)
4 Veteran Explorer
4 Dark Confidant
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Primeval Titan
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Thragtusk
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Acidic Slime
1 Siege Rhino
Spells(23)
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Liliana of the Veil
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Abrupt Decay
Lands(21)
3 Windswept Heath
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Marsh Flats
3 bayou
2 savannah
3 forest
2 swamp
1 plains
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Phyrexian Tower
Sideboard(15)
3 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Path to Exile
2 Gaddock Teeg
3 rest in peace
2 surgical extraction
3 choke
Thoughts?
Edit 1: - 1 Eternal Witness +1 Thragtusk
Edit 2: -1 Eternal Witness +1 Acidic Slime
Edit 3: -1 Eternal Witness +1 Courser of Kruphix
Notes: Deck is actually tons of fun, cabal therapy is pretty busted. Veteran Explorer starts are pure win. Hymn to Tourach is a must have against anything unfair.
This seems much more powerful than any Junk deck I have played in a few years. Trying acidic slime over restoration sage for the additional value. You will cast LOTS of green suns zeniths with this deck.
Need to find room for a courser of kruphix as a fifth dark confidant that is also GSZ-able.
Sensei's Divining Top is pretty much broken in this deck... just decided.
You might even wanna consider Maelstrom Pulse in that slot as a catch all.Quote:
Originally Posted by lavafrogg
4 Dark Confidant, tricky. Personally i wouldnt choose that, but be sure to let us know how those turn out.
Also i find the lack of MD Path to Exile or Swords to Plowshares a bit iffy, might be a meta choice.
And last, you could also swap a fetch for Karakas. The card is pretty solid against Marit Lage, Reanimate and Sneak/Show. Also it can protect Sigarda or Teeg. Or also to sneak in a GSZ under an active Teeg.
Eternal Witness has already completely been cut from the deck, lets see what happens. I imagine that I will cut something to put a singleton back in but as of now she seems like overkill.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobmans
The Dark Confidants have 3 Tops to guide their way and Thragtusk/Siege Rhino and Courser to help regain any lost life. We also have plenty of ways to kill a run away dark confidant.
I feel like confidant is the best way to shore up the unfair matches as we need a way to keep up the pressure with discard.
I almost want 4 tops in the list already but have not made the move yet.
Karakas is an easy move if that interests you, would increase the value of a PrimeTime to give eternal Sigardas(she is already hard enough to kill).
@lavafrogg:
Maybe the 21 lands are a bit greedy. I think you rely heavily on Explorer starts to get to your Hymn/Liliana Mana in time.
You can safely add a 4th Bayou.
With five 4cc+ drops, Dark Confidant it kind of a liability. I understand that Top/Courser+Fetch kind of protect you from the evil ones - I would have to test this. Please tell us your experiences with that.
Where would you bring in 3 Rest in Peace? Dredge, Reanimator?
I am testing currently and the lands have been working as well as I could hope, I could cut a 5 drop for another land if needed but I do not know yet which one I would like to drop. The land count could easily go up to 22/23.Quote:
Originally Posted by emuhell
Dark Confidant has not been a liability as of yet, with limited testing, and actually lets the deck keep up/move past other decks in the format.
Rest in Peace is a catch all against all of the rouge/teir 2 strategies that abuse the graveyard...ie lands, dredge and nerfs any goyf/mongoose based ground assaults to a halt. RUG is a pretty bad matchup if you can't get started.
21 lands looks way too greedy. I think 22 would be the sweet spot. I really like that concept overall.
If you run the 2 towers, what is the rationale behind 0 witness? Space?
I think removing either gaddock, ooze or slime would be best to make room for the extra land, depending on the meta. Acidic slime recursion seems like the danger of cool things when I have decays and deeds.Quote:
Originally Posted by Warden
Eternal witness just seems too slow and too win more at this point in testing. I started with 3 eternal witness and have cut down to 0 as they do not help us when we need it the most. A thragtusk/siege rhino will stop the bleeding or apply pressure, teeg and ooze help in unfair match ups, courser is a GSZ able dark confidant and prime time/sigrada are over the top threats to make sure we win fair matchup.
Witness does not do enough in her own... Which makes me sad.
The 2 towers have enough to recur in siege rhino and thragtusk, in addition to protecting any other creature from removal.
Drop Acidic Slime for sure. Both Teeg as Ooze are to important cards against decks like Dredge, Reanimate and ANT. Also Teeg and Ooze are solid against control (teeg stops FoW/DTT) or tempo (can het bigger then goyf and gives life) . Plus their CMC 2 is good for the overall mana curve of the deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by lavafrogg
As of Eternal Witness i had the same feeling, but then i was able to retrieve answers lategame or relaunch an Slaughter Games vs combo during games and realized that is it such a good card if played. Also Eternal Witness can get back lands (like Stronghold or Karakas). But Eternal Witness might be excessive with 4 Dark Confidant.
Okay so -1 acidic slime, +1 scrublandQuote:
Originally Posted by Bobmans
and eternal witness is a slow card so I will replace another slow card in Pernicious Deed for
-1 Pernicious Deed, + 1 Eternal Witness
I feel like with all of the shuffling and toping, we will be able to find a deed when we need to, also, eternal witness and pernicious deed will be able to lock out a couple games for us.
Current list:
Creatures(16)
4 Veteran Explorer
4 Dark Confidant
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Primeval Titan
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Thragtusk
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Siege Rhino
1 Eternal Witness
Spells(22)
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Pernicious Deed
3 Abrupt Decay
Lands(22)
3 Windswept Heath
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Marsh Flats
3 bayou
2 savannah
1 scrubland
3 forest
2 swamp
1 plains
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Phyrexian Tower
Sideboard(15)
3 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Path to Exile
2 Gaddock Teeg
3 rest in peace
2 surgical extraction
3 choke
What do you think now? I will be able to play in a local this weekend if we can finalize a list.
Edit: I was just asked about switching out the pernicious deeds for spot removal i.e. Path to exile, and i feel that deed is such a big trump card against most of the format and many games will be won on the back of a board clearing pernicious deed and us dropping a large threat like rhino or tusk and just riding to victory. Very classic rock like.
Pernicious Deed is one of the most imprtant cards of this deck. Just like you just stated. I would never play less then 3 if not playing Birthing Pod. You do not run Swords/Path but that is the sacrifice you make for running Hymn.. which in its turn is less good when not running a deck with Wasteland.Quote:
Originally Posted by lavafrogg
Playing tonight and the pernicious deed has not been missed with Tops and Bobs to find it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobmans
Hymn is just a good card and in conjunction with cabal therapy can completely empty an opponents hand very early in the game. I am going for pure power with the discard, looking to get as much CA as possible and to lock opponents under a Lilliana as soon as possible.
http://i.imgur.com/BqwJ8lf.png
What do we feel about this? Worse than Primeval Titan, most likely. But still, it's kinda cool.
The best it can find is Eternal Witness. Or something cute like Fierce Empath to Tasigur/Gurmag Angler.
Might be worth testing as it can help you pull forward quickly in the late game, but I'm not sure if it's good enough. The fact that the creature needs to be green is a bit too restrictive to do actual cool stuff.
If we want to continue to play this deck in this metagame, we may need to take a long look at our sacred cow.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobmans
How viable is Deed in large numbers when many people are running things with 6 or 7 cmc (Angler/Tasigur/mandrills/etc)? Deed is, as ever, a good response to all of their little shit -- but at that point you need to also be running spot removal to clean up the big boys. We don't live in a Pernicious Deed-as-catchall world anymore, sadly.
As for Bellower:
It's a 6/5 with no evasion, protection, or anything OTHER than the fact that it brings a <=3-cmc green non-legend stapled to it.
Eternal Witness
KotR
Courser
Trygon Predator
Cold-Eye Selkie
Dauntless Escort
Sylvan Safekeeper
Reclamation Sage
Qasali Pridemage
Scavenging Ooze
I can't think of other useful cards at the moment, although I'm sure the list is much more exhaustive than this.
I will say this, though -- this list actually looks pretty restrictive so far. When I first saw the card I got pretty excited because I missed the word "green," and thought it just tutored any <=3 cmc nonlegend, which was fine -- grab TNN? Stoneforge? Sure! Forcing it to be green in addition to the other constraints is unfortunate.
It's something to keep in mind, and someone we should probably all acquire 1 copy of it to shove in our binders/boxes somewhere in case it ever becomes relevant, but I don't see it changing anything at this time, unless someone can dig up some hot tech that I'm not thinking of. And even then -- is it better than the other various 6-drops that exist? Doubtful.
Yikes, could they nerf this set any more?
It's basically all value plays since there's nothing really interesting to do with it combo-wise.
I guess if you have a food chain you could go this -> fierce empath -> Ulamog.
And in a Pod deck, you can pod into this and get a fresh 3-drop to start another chain with.
Nerf? They did print timetwister variant that will be playable in modern if nothing else and also a new tutor that storm might play.
I actually might look into a bug deck that uses the new liliana. I like saccing strix and snapcaster and getting them back for tons of value. Not sure if the reanimation is any better than the old liliana but may look into it.
I cannot see how this new 6 drop is any better than prime time. it doesnt bring any additional real raw power and 6 drops niches dont matter a whole ton anyway to be honest. I would run prime time over any other 6 drop still.
I think it's competing more with Sun Titan by virtue of its ease of access Witness trigger, but even then I think Sun Titan is still better.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom4ik
I do not expect us to get anything out of this set, and would be pleasantly surprised if we do. This is Origins. So far they've shown us a bunch of powerful spells. I feel like it idea was to take oldschool "spells > creatures" magic and put a modern day spin on it, in which case we basically get nothing because our spells are already about as powerful as they can realistically be. Nothing short of a Survival unban is going to replace Zenith, for example -- and even then I'm not sure if it's a straight replace or if we'd still run a couple Zeniths as backups.
If looking at this as a sun titan replacement than I agree its just worse. It adds gsz'able and puts a witness and 6/5 into play and I dont think that is worth the loss of recursive power that Sun Titan has.
This guy is "up there" on my list of pet cards from Origins. I think this guy CAN work within Nic Fit, but Pod and/or a different shell makes the most sense. Within the GSZ shell, he more or less replaces slots of shit he will dig up. In pod he has the ability to show up to the party after Acidic Slime or Thragtusk. His tutoring either resets pod (find a 1 drop ---> pod into a 2cc, find a 2 drop ---> pod into a 3 cc, etc.) or he pods himself into a 7 drop. I don't know if a 7 drop is desired for Pod, but this gets you into Angel of Despair, Angel of Serenity, Avenger of Zendikar, Elesh Norn, Hornet Queen, Platinum Angel, Protean Hulk, and Rune-Scarred Demon territory. Or....Vizzerdrix. I like the empath --> Ulamog/boom booms concept also.Quote:
Originally Posted by maharis
It's interesting how despite being a nice "glue" to Nic Fit (on-color, zenith target, laughs at Deed, plays with Pod, finds stuff in a deck that likes tutors, etc), he may not be "enough". I think it's possible but can't figure out how to build the list. Just thinking out loud and confirming some other thoughts.
Yes, we do need answers for the big boys and that is where the strength of Junk lies. But still there are DnT, Delver, Elves, Pyromancer, Mentor, Entreat, EtW, Dredge and various other decks where Deed makes the difference. But we need to think broader. We should be all about manoeuvrability and a sweeper is a big part of that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arianrhod
Most of those die to EE for 2-3 mana, and StP/Roast kill the rest.
1 card that takes all vs 1 card that needs more cards to clear the board. Deeds is better.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zombie
Unless you are using Academy Ruins with EE deed is better. It hits more things in 1 go which is the big draw to deed. I play BUG and I still think deed is better than EE (I could use AR with it).
The threats that Decay/Deed do not hit are overblown. They certainly are there but they are not the majority. White has plow/path and Blue has counters/jace and all have pulse.
This is what I'm saying. Previous eras of NicFit-dom have completely eschewed spot removal in order to increase bomb density, and leaned entirely upon Deed because at the time, we could. All I'm getting at is that in this world we currently live in, we can no longer afford that luxury. Every color, every version needs a couple of hard removal spells now. It's not a -huge- deal, but we do need to be conscious of the space constraints that puts on us, as well as the fact that our games (which are typically super grindy already) are likely going to become even worse in that way -- which, in turn, pushes us towards the hardest of win conditions. 12post is still seeing some limited success in this metagame primarily because it caps at Emrakul into infinite turns, which is basically the biggest / most unstoppable / most inevitable you can go. We need a similarly inevitable / impossible to remove wincon if we are to succeed because we just don't have the slots anymore to whittle people down by throwing midrange bombs at them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom4ik
I actually like this card, I just think the restrictions are silly. Like, is it really broken if I use this to get Glissa, the Traitor?Quote:
Originally Posted by Warden
I even like it better than prime time unless we're playing Scapeshift (because primetime means you have to play wonky lands that can monkey with your openers). I just wish we could get something cooler. There aren't that many broken creatures at <=3 cmc in standard in any color, so giving us the ability to chain this into SFM or Image -> something else would've been a nice boost for formats where resolving a 6 cmc sorcery speed spell is a victory in itself.
I guess a green creature at any CMC could be problematic in standard though.
A 6/5 into a free Hornet Queen is insanely broken. In Legacy, well. Progenitus. Or Progenitor Mimic into Progenitor Mimic into Progenitor Mimic into Progenitor Mimic into Ruric Thar.Quote:
Originally Posted by maharis
If the color restriction was lifted instead, you could chain Phantasmal Images into Teeg or a Meddling Mage on whatever can kill that much fat.
The card is not good. It is casual/standard chaff. The Titans are much better and are already super expensive.
Painter's servant. That is all.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arianrhod
Play a card that's bad in the deck to capitalize on another card that's not even that powerful. Seems strong.Quote:
Originally Posted by jbone2016
Currently BUG Nic Fit playing vs Painter in the Scandinavian Open tournament series, round 6 of 6, first game lost while I'm trying to post this on my ancient laptop...
http://www.twitch.tv/svmtv
Edit: apparently the second game was a quick loss too, too much lag for me to see much of it except for t1 Deathrite, Painter plays SDT, t2 Thoughtseize revealed a Grindstone, REB/Pyroblast and 4 lands so it was looking pretty good for the Nic Fit player who also had a Liliana in hand.
Why did NicFit pass on collective company? Seems super chain-able with eternal witness and could eventually dig up a win/con or just grind the opponent to dust.
Just look at a random list and count the number of actual creatures with CMC <= 3. The number is far too low to support Collected Company.