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If you're looking to have an answer to Moat/Prison/Propaganda in Game 1, you'd be better off running Angel of Despair or Woodfall Primus. At least those can hit so many other Game 1 cards that you don't want to see.
The only advantage I see that Predator Dragon has over those two is when somehow, the ground is gummed up that your Zombies and Ichorids can't push through.
Prision effects delay at least 3 turns to come into play (except elephant grass but it has a nice cumulative upkeep), this is enough time to combo off. So, unless your meta is plagued of prision effects i wouldn't run an anti prision creature in main deck and i'd try to combo of in T2 - T3 in match up where the risk of suffering prision efects are significant in match 1. Remember your therapies to prision, propaganda, moat etc!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenCid
Still, the decks that run said moat and propaganda are also the decks that run the permission spells. I've found that Therapy is better against these decks than trying to combo out early-turns, which is solely dependent on your hand which might not even allow a fast combo.
In my experience comboing in T3 is not too dificul if you choose your opening hand properly!:wink:Quote:
Originally Posted by Mayk0l
It doesn't always work like that. In the Source tournament I was able to combo out twice; I mulliganed almost every hand and went to 5 on 50+%. This is taking into account the times I didn't board out the combo G2-G3. What I'm saying is, you cannot always count on comboing by turn 3. Especially if you're up against MUC which will counter your Breakthrough.Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenCid
@ GoldenCid: What Mayk0l just said has already been said numerous times throughout the 87 pages of this thread. This deck mulligans like crazy regardless of your build (even builds with Tireless Tribe :(. And you can not, under any circumstances rely on the "Im just going to race them" factor. There really isn't much racing against cards like Leyline, Crypt, or Extirpate. You just have to adapt to playing against them and mull into a hand that would be able to handle the oncoming threat. Oftentimes this is possible and sometimes you go down to 4 trying to find Wispmare or CoV and don't then watch as your opponent opens the game with Leyline. Point is, the player makes the deck, learn how to play against hate cards, how to SB the deck properly and how to build a proper SB as it pertains to your metagame.
I see this deck as an aggro version of Belcher - it favors the lucky more than the skilled. Of course play decisions would matter, but really, all you've got with this deck is your opening 7. If that's bad, the deck won't function as good as it could.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kicks_422
This kind of depends on which build you are running. If you run careful study, you actually get an "extended hand". I cant say that this is much different than a combo deck, you really need a dredger, and a way to get it into the grave in your opening hand, like combo needs accelerants and a win-con. Ive been running a LED less build with a full suite of careful study and street wraith, I may get down to 3 wraith in favor of packing 4 unmask. Although I cant win on turn 1, the turn 2-4 wins are WAY more consistent than with the LED list.
Just because both decks are very dependent on their starting seven does not make them the same. I've played both a lot and IMO Ichorid has many more play decisions than Belcher, most of which are not over whether or not to mulligan. Look at it this way, Belcher is almost always the (at times mindless) beatdown while there are definitely relevant match ups where Ichorid is the control and plays a more reactive strategy.Quote:
Originally Posted by kicks_422
Tonight I made it to the finals with Dredge and split in the top 2 out of something like 24 people. If anyone is interested I could write up another tournament report. I played against Affinity, UWb Landstill, and UWb Landstill in the swiss rounds; drew into the top 8 played against Goyf Sligh and 4C Thresh with Deed. I ended up losing 3 games total throughout the entire night. This is the second week in a row the deck has made the top 4 out of a field no less than 22 players each time. For reference here is the list:
4x Bridge From Below
4x Narcomoeba
4x Golgari Grave-Troll
4x Stinkweed Imp
4x Putrid Imp
4x Careful Study
3x Breakthrough
3x Tireless tribe
3x Cabal Therapy
3x Dread Return
3x Ichorid
3x Darkblast
2x Cephalid Sage
1x Flame-Kin Zealot
4x Cephalid Coliseum
4x City of Brass
4x Gemstone Mine
2x Tarnished Citadel
1x Undiscovered Paradise
Sideboard
3x Chain of Vapor
4x Pithing Needle
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Wispmare
I truly love playing 15 lands in this deck. The only reason I won my match against Thresh post-board was because I was able to hardcast Narcomoeba and draw out a counter and then flashback Therapy (the fucking Thresh deck ran 4x Crypt, 3-4x EE, 2x Deed, and 4x Trinket Mage). Same with Darkblast, both games against Goyf Sligh Darkblast killed turn 1 Fanatic. No joke, Darkblast is just fantastic in every way, instead of worring about the Goblins matchup I am excited when I get to play against them, Darkblast makes those games so much easier especially when paired with Needle.
One thing I am thinking about doing is cutting 1x Careful Study and putting in the 4th Cabal Therapy. I found that 3x Cabal Therapy is enough but there are times when I truly want to have 4x, especially in the combo matchup.
Maybe a better choice than cutting careful study is cutting one cephalid sage. I play the LED version combo, and i found useful to keep study although i play a 3x deck, but i can't give an accurate opinion about the mechanism of your deck. Beside i run EW instead sage, if you wish you could try her!Quote:
Originally Posted by Pulp_Fiction
I think that 4x therapy is plenty useful in the most of match up i reinforce its effect with unmask (2x) agaist combo.
Have test a 4x ichorid version for your deck?
I was looking through my boxes of cards and I found a good card that might be useful for those that are using "Wax/Wane" in the board:
Erase
Instant, W
Remove target enchantment from the game
Pretty good since it removes the enchantment for good at the same cost. Not sure if the +2/+2 really helps...for you all to decide.
If you want a card that simply destroys an enchantment there is no substitute for Wispmare. It evokes for W and since it is a creature later on it can be DReturned if that is absolutely necessary.
some people likes the instant nature of some spells..wispmare although good it only can be played in your turn...Quote:
Originally Posted by Pulp_Fiction
Who cares, especially in the 11 land builds. As soon as you get the mana (assuming you are able to find it to begin with) you are going to play your land and then cast the spell cause the land will most likely meet a Wasteland next turn or the spell gets Thoughtseized if you tapped out to play something else which would be a mistake and you can't leave that to chance. Unless you are playing LED in which case Ray of Revelation would be useless discarded (with Leyline in play) but assuming it was already in the grave it would still most likely be played as a sorcery, especially against someone who is tapped out and you know has Extirpate.
The only instant this deck really needs (aside from Darkblast) is Chain of Vapor just for the fact that it removes a creature/enchantment from play so as your opponent can't recast it. I suppose Firestorm would also be played as an instant but I dont know, I tested it a little and didn't like it.
Sicerelly i like firestorm, but couldn't tested it so far. I think it's good for discard outled against control as Parcher mentioned above...
Wispmare cuold be tested in replacement of wax/wane, erase, simplify...the only different are the tokens and its sorcery speed...i will test it...
First, the deck doesn't need Darkblast. Ever.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pulp_Fiction
You tested Firestorm and DIDN'T like it? ??? I don't get it. It's so versatile. Hits lackey and friends, which if you haven't noticed is a halfway difficult matchup. Secondly, even countered, it lets you discard. Great through CB, Chalice @ 1, and any counters they may have. That's nice. Plus, it's good in the Ichorid Beatz gameplan as EoT you can wipe out their army (to an extent) and then swing to connect with Ichorid.
I don't understand how you don't like it other than...you don't come into situations where it's useful?
Pce,
--DC
@ Dark Cynic: I play a totally different build of Dredge with Darkblast in the main. Goblins is not a difficult match with Darkblast, it kills Lackey and friends. I have yet to lose to Goblins (knock on wood) in a tournament setting with Dredge out of the 5ish times I have encountered it; and yes they run Crypt as well. So please don't blindly assume Darkblast shouldn't be run in Dredge ever, say it should not be run in LED Dredge as that is the build I assume you are referring to. Slow Dredge (Street Wraith and 15 lands) play quite differently than standard LED/DA based Dredge decks do.
I don't like Firestorm or Eternal Witness in the deck but I also don't have LED or Deep Analysis, thats probably why. CotV @ 1 is not good but since I already play Breakthrough and enough lands to reliably get to 2 I can Breakthrough for 1 nearly every game. If CotV becomes a serious problem in my meta I can always add in Ancient Grudge but as it is I can comfortably play through the occassional Chalice @ 1.
I think slow dredge should have it's own thread. It plays a lot differently, plus I wouldn't look like a shmuck all the time...Quote:
Originally Posted by Pulp_Fiction
However, I will remind you that some variations of traditional dredge combo also play Street Wraith (My build comes to mind...).
Clearly slow dredge won't be able to appreciate Eternal Witness in the least, but I still see no reason why it couldn't appreciate an uncounterable discard spell that as a bonus burns shit. Chalice and CB aren't the only things that counter spells...
I do see your point though, and if you feel comfortable not running Firestorm, I see no reason to push the issue...
Pce,
--DC
I definitely agree that we need a separate thread for non-LED based Dredge decks. I have been meaning to write up a primer but I don't know if enough people play non-LED based Dredge that it would be worth writing. I have lots to say about the decks but does anoyone besides me and DeathWing take those builds into tournament settings? It may be worth it however to start a separate thread. Should I create on within the next couple of days?
I think so, because different opinons about a "supoused same deck" may create confussion among new readers. This is based on the different mechanics and speed of both verssion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pulp_Fiction
In my opinion, sharing your knowledge and information with the rest of the community is never a waste of time, even if few people play it; the same is true for the N&D forum. Do it :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Pulp_Fiction
yeah, please do...actually I don't really know the differences other than:
-4x LED
+?x Tireless Tribe
+X-(?)x ???
hehehe....
Pce,
--DC
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark_Cynic87
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pulp_Fiction
I think that this is for the "slow" dredge version...may be 3 tireless tribe and a good fatty would be a good option. Although i like the "fast" version...Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark_Cynic87
Im thought about playing this deck in an upcomming Legacy tournament.
I tested the LED version + Eternal Witness against several decks and I was quite suprised.
For example I won 7-1 against Dreadstill...
I have some experience with the Extended build version of this deck.
My questions:
How do you guys handle Meddling Mages (on D.Return for example) since in the LED build there are no darkblasts...
I am not very experienced in Legacy so i'm not sure if people even play M.Mages a lot... :eek:
But i ran into them a lot in Extended. And yes I know, there was a lot more hate against this deck in Exteneded :wink:
I think the easiest way is to just win through Mage.
I'm quite happy whenever someone names DReturn against me though, since it's really not needed. You just Therapy to produce lots of tokens ftw.
If they name Therapy it gets trickier, but you still have access to DR (assuming you kept it post board) or you can recur Ichorids ftw (who will produce tokens, too). The good thing with the deck is that there's no real "combo" component, any one of those is enough to win.
Beside you can run Unmask o ever creepling fatigue in SB to get rid from meddling mage.
Beyond this a god chain of vapor could resolve your problems...may be againts control (landstill / Dreadstill) you could do this sideboarding:
-4 LED
-3 Dread return (or may be keep one for unmask and cut 1 more breakthrough, i'm not sure)
-1 Breakthrough
-1 Zealot
-2 Deep analysis
+4 Chain of vapor (bounce whatever, including M. Mage)
+4 Pithing needle (inactivate explosives, tormod, powder keg, etc)
+3 Unmask (search for hate)
And just play the non - combo version...it's my opinion.
This is usually correct. While you need LED game one to maintain Ichorid's win percentages in these and to outrace combo in all games, it is smart to board it out against any deck sideboarding Crypt due to the vulnerabitltes it gives to said card. DA also comes out as it's usefullness without LED is greatly limited.
Against Aggro decks with Crypt, you can also remove FKZ and a Dread since they will likely be able to reduce your Bridge effectiveness to the point where you will not be able to "combo out" with tokens and FKZ.
Thx guys!
I'll read the thread over once more to see if I might have some more questions... I'll also check other topics regarding other (top)decks I might face during the upcoming tournament.
In general, do some of you guys have some strategies allready against some decks? Like put Chalice oV. on X because of ... Or put Needle on .... because of ...
Like I said, I have some experience in Extended but Legacy is quite new for me :)
A quick 'strategy' overview would be nice, also for others perhaps :)
ps.
I have to say I learned a lot allready from reading some tournament-logs in this thread and post from you guys. Thx :smile:
Just dredge like crazy Game 1. It's almost always an auto-win, unless you keep a really bad hand.
The real game starts in G2, where you have to board in anti-hate. Generally, I side in 4 Chain of Vapor and 4 Pithing Needles for the DR combo and 1-ofs (usually, a Thug, Ichorid, LED, and DA).
Except when they drop an Island, that usually gets me Therapying them first.Quote:
Originally Posted by kicks_422
"Forest, Go" has always been "GG" for me though :)
That's right, except when: "Forest, go!"Quote:
Originally Posted by Mayk0l
"Land, putrid, LED, go!"
"Forest, sakura, -WTFFF???-, go!"
:confused:
I'm not sure what's better, Eternal Witness or Cephalid Sage. Sage allows me to dig into what I need to take out my foe, but Witness is simply versatile. For reference, this is the list I'm currently going for. Witness + Firestorm seems like it could break me out of several otherwise dooming situations, especially against Dragon Stompy and possibly Survival. I've found LED to be unnecessarily explosive, but cutting both Diamond and Sage may be too much.
// Lands
3 Cephalid Coliseum
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
// Creatures
3 Golgari Thug
3 Ichorid
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Putrid Imp
4 Narcomoeba
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
2 Eternal Witness
3 Street Wraith
// Spells
4 Careful Study
1 Firestorm (Would go out with Witness)
2 Dread Return
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Bridge from Below
4 Breakthrough
2 Deep Analysis
// Sideboard
SB: 2 Firestorm
SB: 3 Wispmare
SB: 2 Ancient Grudge
SB: 4 Chain of Vapor
SB: 4 Chalice of the Void
I don't think firestorm is a good answer against dragon stompy because they will play chalice for one in most games. Otherwise, is a good card against golbins (not an esay matchup) and maybe survival
That's true. How often have others found Dragon Stompy keeping in Chalice post-board?
With Ad Nauseam combo running rampant, we need that 'unnecessary explosiveness'Quote:
Originally Posted by Sanguine Voyeur
It's worth noting that Firestorm is still a valid discard outlet after DS drops chalice at one. Also, Firestorm can kill Magus, RPD, and non-hellbent Raiders with no other creatures on the board. I'm not saying Firestorm is a definite to bring in against DS - but it deserves some consideration. Honestly, I find myself liking Firestorm more and more everytime I play it.
At first I was not an advocate of Unmask, but with combo on the rise and control decks being some of the best decks in the format I would at least leave yourself the option to run them in the board if not maindecked. I have been running 3 maindecked and I have grown to love themQuote:
Originally Posted by Sanguine Voyeur
@Sanguine Voyeur: Although EW >> CS two copies of her is a bit high. Some post above there is a discussion about the utility of both cards. I conlcuded that CS is better than EW in a unique rare situation playing manaless. Chck it out.
On the other side, i'm not pretty sure that 1x mainddeck firestorm could be a real advantage. It's great cards with a non clear acceptation among players...
Nowadays i'm running this SB:
4 CoV
4 P. needle
3 Unmask
1 Ancient grudge
3 Wax//Wane