Nope. Goyfs won't like them at first. Second, we have plenty of burn so that won't be too a reason play them.Quote:
Originally Posted by johanessen
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Nope. Goyfs won't like them at first. Second, we have plenty of burn so that won't be too a reason play them.Quote:
Originally Posted by johanessen
Depends on the build I guess.
At first I thought it didn't sound that terrible of an idea at all, but soon realised that a lavamancer will have a hard time dealing as much damage as a mongoose will in a tempobuild, considering how fast that deck reach threshold and that mongoose won't be removed so easily. So no there, definately.
In the red CB builds I guess you could try him out, but i'll be surprised if he proves better than the already played dryads or predators.
He just doesn't beat control like you need him to. Every game I've ever won against landstill, etc has come on the back of a 3/3 with shroud because control has to work so hard to get rid of him. Lavamancer seems cute, but mongoose is just better in that slot.
Mongoose is better against the decks you lose to(control). Dryad is better against the decks you win against (aggro)Quote:
Originally Posted by MULocke
The options for the goose slot are 4 goose or 4 Q dryad. I personaly think goose is far better, but in the goblin infested metagame, or a metagame where you need an extra 4 1G abyss creatures instead of 1 mana untargetable elephants. Qurian is better in some metagames but in general theres a reason goose dispite peoples constant "This card sucks" attitude its still in the deck. You know why? Because 3/3s for 1 mana are awsome and big enough, the fact its near immune to removal makes it over the top.
Goose isnt just fat, its fat that demands a fatter answer or you lose.
I know goose is losing popularity, and I tried cutting him for one tournament, and I never will again.
Goose is still amazing. If you don't agree, that's fine, don't play him.
I agree that mongoose won't die in direct removal BUT if opponent resolves deed / ee example that won't really matter do you have mongoose or dryad in play, because they will pop that deed@2 or EE@1 at least. So there goes your nimble, dryads and tarmos. Yes, dryad dies to Stop and Snuff out but you have counters to protect that guy and if opponent finds answer in time, i think that dryad have make some serious damage, more than mongoose. Also, that mongoose sucks in mirror. Dryad will grow up bigger and faster almost always than mongoose (atleast if that dryad stays game).Quote:
Originally Posted by undone
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atog
You basically just argued the very reason that mongoose is typically better than dryad: because you don't NEED to waste valuable counters to protect him from single-target removal. You set marks against mongoose because he can be deed'd or EE'd and say that we can just counter-protect the dryad.
How about just using those counters to keep the sweepers and other larger threats off the board and let mongoose protect himself from the single-target hate?
Exactly. I COULD see boarding some for the UGR tempo mirror where its all about HUGE men where that lady might come in really handy but outside of that shes not worth it. And even in the mirror I would rather have threads.Quote:
You basically just argued the very reason that mongoose is typically better than dryad: because you don't NEED to waste valuable counters to protect him from single-target removal. You set marks against mongoose because he can be deed'd or EE'd and say that we can just counter-protect the dryad.
How about just using those counters to keep the sweepers and other larger threats off the board and let mongoose protect himself from the single-target hate?
also the arguement that goose dies to mass removal (Which dies to counters, stifles, and bounce spells) is a rather pathetic excuse. As dryad does as well.
Goose is as good and as awsome as he ever was. The next creature I would add to this deck would be Vendillion clique over 1 fire/ice and only in a counter top metagame.
Simply put no goose = bad.
EDIT: my side board has been wanting for a long time but I finaly broke down and switched it up. It now looks like
3 Tormads crypt
3 Price of progress
2 submerge
2 Krosan grips
2 Trygon predators
3 Pyroclasm
Price of progress is such a bomb it wins so many matches by itself (lands, landstill, aggro loam, exct) It isnt great in all matchups but its so strong that it needs to be in the board to prevent losses to random good "blue" decks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by undone
I don't think Tormod's Crypt is necessary in your board if your playing Canadian Threshold (Tempo Thresh). The Ichorid matchup is very good main deck, and adding crypts is just over kill. I would rather dedeciate those slots for additional submerges and red blasts (REB/Pyroblast).
The sideboard should be built with theshold mirror matches in mind b/c a good percentage of the time, thats what you will be playing against. I do like the card disrupt for this scenario very much.
Current Board:
2 REB
2 Pyroblast
2 Krosan Grip
2 Pyroclasm
3 Submerge
4 Disrupt
Ok, lets make it this way. Mongoose is too vulnerable for graveyard hate. Example merfolks novadays play relic in main. What mongoose is doing to that? When you reach threshhold (maybe take some while often) merfolk player drops relic and pops that. So now we have again small shroud creature what dies every creature what opponent has. You will argument that other decks won't play relic main and i won't argue against that. But if players just except thresh/loam/dredge they will pack relics/leylines/crypts in sideboard. Those relic and other hate make our tarmos small what won't be effective against dryad what don't care about graveyard all. That is the point why i'm going to play it over mongoose. We pack also cb/top so we can usually protect dryad, while burning opponent head or creatures AND growing dryad same time. Mongoose just sticks 3/3 what is my biggest concenrn. Well i play tomorrow those dryads in local tournament and i can report here how they worked for me. If they were bad you get laughts :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Smog
One question, is there any sence to side PoPs against dredge / and t.e.s. / ANT? Dredge plays 10~ non-basics so that could make some damage. Tes plays some more.. Just seeing sceneratio where ANT is playing and resolving Ad Nauseam and going low life when searching enought stuff to go leathal, just when they try to play tendrils you play response that PoP. That could prompt some noise other side of table :)
Relic is just as good against goose as it is against goyf. Why not cut goyf:rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by Atog
I also never said dryad was bad I simply said you needed geese. The reason being goose>swords>Guys that arent 3/X's Also dryad is alot better with counter top in play but with counter top in play white does it better so it shouldnt be in red. And in white thresh you just play prog + natural order+ wearbears over a measly 8/8 dryad. Dryad just doesnt belong there are better options available if your in white and if your in red you probably should be playing swans/moon or not playing CB.
There might be sense to side them in against TES and ANT (like over bounce or something) but not against dredge, dredge is too fast for that crap.
Hmm, if those dryads are so much weaker than mongoose how do you explain this?Quote:
Originally Posted by undone
UGR-thresh with dryads 1st
?
If you look recent lists, you will notice there is plenty other list what play dryad over mongoose too and have get in top8.
ok, or dryad thresh as the above links indicate, I have yet to play dryad thresh although I think it can be good as long as you play CB to protect it.Quote:
Originally Posted by spirit of the wretch
I just noticed that almost every single deck that runs dryad also runs CB and I assume establishes Counter top befor playing it or immediately after playing it as to keep her alive while shes frail.Quote:
Hmm, if those dryads are so much weaker than mongoose how do you explain this?
UGR-thresh with dryads 1st
?
If you look recent lists, you will notice there is plenty other list what play dryad over mongoose too and have get in top8.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atog
I could do the exact same thing, and show you more examples, with mongoose decks.
But whatever, play what you want. I'd rather see every other thresh deck out there running dryad.
From my experience disrupt seems the weakest card in the sb to me. What is your boarding plan with it? what do you take out?Quote:
Originally Posted by nickrit2000
It is supposed to be better than the BEB I think and you can also board it in against Combo - which is already a bye for you.
You can also bring them in against Eva Green and the like.
Personally I prefer Divert over both Blast and Disrupt. Since it isn't dead after the early game and does a lot more against Goyfsligh and Burn. Plus diverting a Hymn/Sinkhole/Thoughtseize is very sexy.
Ok, so I played Threshold twice those pasts week-ends at different local tournaments. Ugwb CB-thresh last Sunday (4th with 4-1-1) and Ugr Thresh yesterday (4th with 4-1).
@Mongoose :
In the UGwb one, I switch the 4xMongeese for 2xPredator and 2xGrunts.
That was boring.
Beeing unable to drop a threat before turn 3-4 (thanks to Daze and the 2cc of all my beasts) lead me to 40-50mn rounds most of the times. Even when I won them 2-0 !
Sure, this list is more controllish than the Ugr one, but beeing unable to put early pressure on your opponent is such a pain.
Next time I'll stick with the mighty goose for sure... Even in a control shell, early and hardly manageable pressure is neat.
@Stifle in UGr Lists :
Last night, I played a Ugr version Moon-effect empowered. It was only FNM so I wanted fun and interactions with my opponents.
No CB-Top, No Stifle-Waste shenannigans... Beatdown (Goyf&Goose + 2x Werebear) and Burn (4x Bolts, 3x Chain Lightning, 2x F&I) plus the 4x FoW, 4x Daze, 3x Snares countermeasures.
No tempo cards, but a way better reach and aggro matchup.
Still, crushing 'random' is fair, but I didn't want to lose to classic CB Thresh lists or Control decks. So I packed 2 Grips MD and 2x Magus/1x BloodMoon in the available slots, plus a random Rushing River in case of TombStalker or needed tempo boost.
The meta here is quite mature, and as soon as my opponents recognized UGr Threshold in front of them, they begun to fear Stifle and Wasteland. They slow play their fetches and fetch basics most of the times (thus making my Moons near useless if I couldn't drop them fast enough).
So, I finally gain quite the same tempo as the Stifle//Waste lists, but with a better reach and a better manabase (no colorless lands in my 17).
Making it short : not packing Stifle and Wastelands make my deck faster. Still, my deck received the benefits of those 2 cards without ever playing them.
If your mana denial//tempo plan consists of only 7 cards and if you can't abuse stifle like DreadStill does, I really do think the card is weaker than the hype around it.
People are living in fear of Waste & Stifle, but you don't need to play them to reap the rewards from those cards.
I have to agree that I was afraid of the combo matchup without Stifle nor CB to fight this particular archetype.
I only faced Belcher once but I won 2-0 thanks to FoW+SpellSnare on BW twice game1, and Ancient Grudge and FireSpout G2.
The thing is, countering key spells while rubbing face with goose and burn was too much for Belcher.
I agree ANT would be another story...
Im more interested in seeing what you take out. (Tempo Thresh list)Quote:
Originally Posted by FredMaster
I played today at local tournament in 24 person pool. I finished at 7th, losing to ANT(!) and aggro loam. I beated r-b aggro (red death?), mono-u skies and deadguy ale.
That ANT match was ridiculous, in first game i get counterbalance stay, and opponent played orim's chant on his turn, i try to counter it with daze, when opponent has 4 life and two city of brass untapped, he payed and take on burn. Then i finished him by lighting bolt :) Second game he bounced my balance and played tendrils@12. I was holding lighting bolt but no red source to play it :( He has 1 life.. Third game were something what i have never seen. ANT player played three duress so far turn two. Fair? Not. First hit my daze, second hit my force, and third take out my balance :( that left me with couple lands. Then i don't draw any relevant and he finished me off by Empty The warrens.
Aggro loam were too quite nice. I lost first game to unaswered Countryside Crusher (i didn't draw a single force in whole game, and counterbalance were on the table without top). Second game i sided in submerged and something else.. I draw three submerges and ALWAYS responded that fetch by playing that submerge on tarmogoyf. And every time he draw a fresh tarmo on top of deck. Nice draws, yeah?. Third game, he landed again countryside crusher and tarmogoyf, and i didn't draw my enought soon so they literally crushed me down. That PoP would save my ass in both games, IF i would just draw that and played it in sideboard. Loam player was 5-8 non-basics in play so that would be quite destructive :)
top 4ed today with Thrash,
Matchups
Goblins 2-0
Mono green something 1-2
Goblins 2-0
Survival 2-0
Survival elves 2-1
Eva green Draw into T8 (won fun games 2-1)
Top8
Belcher 2-0
Recurring rock 1-2
I cut disrupt from the sb and didn't miss it all day thnx to the meta.
What did you add in those open slots and what does your SB look like now in general? Would you also cut Disrupt in general or was it just a metagame decission?
disrupt sucks, i cut it as well.
reb/beb > disrupt
Did you guys test Divert in the BEB Slot? Against pretty much all decks against BEB would be good (Sligh stuff) Divert shines, too. You might argue that BEB is stronger against Decks like Dragon Stompy and Imperial Painter, but if you do so you have also to look at Diverts other area of application: Against Suicide-style decks and Team America it's also very useful.
At least in my metagame I like Divert better than BEB or Hydroblast.
Disrupt is just bad. Divert is ok but I would rather have BEB in a random metagame because goblins + dragon stompy + imperial painter + moon effects > Burn + Discard. Discard beats you handidly unless you deny its lands (Eva green) or land a solid threat early and keep pressure up.
If you are concerned about decks packing red BEB is better but divert is better if you expect decks playing hymn
What does every one think of packing 2/3 SB burn cards they would be awsome for reach against recurring decks and decks with huge men we cant get by. I dont know what playable burn we dont already run though the ones at the top of the list would be
Price of progress
A tough contender as it automaticaly wins some matchups. otherwise unwinnable such as lands, the difficult aggro loam matchup, and landstill. Yes you take damage here but your the agressive deck in each of these matchups so its rarely an issue.
Any one else see price of progress as a strong blow out card for this SB as a 2 of all it takes is 1 late game to automaticaly win the game against things like lands, landstill and aggro loam (seriously it turns 43 from a near auto loss to a near auto win..)
i considered 1 spitebellows in the sb, but its not necessary.Quote:
Originally Posted by undone
i rather just wipeaway/rushing river the tombstalker/terrawhore/crusher.. also you can just bring in beb's vs loam and crush their hopes & dreams.
My sb was:
4 submerge
3 pyroclasm
4 pyroblast
3 krosan grip
1 life from the loam (random filler)
Submerge. It's awesome.Quote:
Originally Posted by sauce
Well, I decided to give disrupt another try at my gpt, but I never got a matchup where I would want them partially because there was no combo, and partially because REB is just better. I'm gonna cut it for more relevant slots like threads and grips for next week.
Oh yeah, and I won the byes at that gpt :P.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Waikiki
The main application for disrupt is against combo/control decks. It's hard to give an exact breakdown on what I would take out depending on the type of deck your playing against. Even against threshold decks it varies so much depending if its a tempo version or one that plays counterbalance.
The general rule is to take cards out that will have the least benefit. The first cards I always look at are the 2 bounce spells and the 4 fire/ice.
The best application is against the combo decks out there where having an extra 4 daze effects are very good.
If you find something better to play in that spot then go ahead. I just found the card to be very helpful in the matchups I play against.
red elemental blasts are always more relevant for 1 mana than disrupt...Quote:
Originally Posted by nickrit2000
against combo (ANT) its great too since their stupid mystical tutor/ponder/brainstorm all get denied via REB giving you enough time to get a goyf/goose in the red zone and force them to go off w/o a perfect hand or lose.
i dunno, submerge seems so situational, and it only helps against a few creatures which can be either denied from ever coming in via relic or shrunk to manageable sizes.
we got 2 main deck bounce spells already.
i rather run 3 relic + 1 ee in the board instead of 4 submerge.
this way im not assed out vs dredge/loam/landstill.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nickrit2000
I do found the power of disrupt and i'll always bring them in my binder. I was wondering on the board plan but it sounds you generally board the same way as I do. The meta I played in last sunday was combo light and almost no control I loved it.
[Economics]
The point of disrupt is not about just how good it is, or its "general utility." The question is about its "marginal utility", or how useful it is compared to everything else you could be using. Yes, it is nice to have in the combo matchups, but is it really better to devote four slots solely to the combo matchup when those slots could be better put to use elsewhere? Seeing as reb is still managable against combo, why do we cut off four slots of our already crammed sb? Their marginal utility is low because of the number of matchups they are useful in as well as how useful they are in those matchups. As for control, reb is much, much better against blue control and other control decks tend to play a lot of land to cast their expensive spells (making extra dazes weak). Low marginal utility means they get cut from my sb so my other matchups can get better.
[/Economics]
Also, test submerge if you think it's weak. I did as well at first, but I tested it and now I understand. It might even be better against loam than relic.
can you please post your sb? thanksQuote:
Originally Posted by MULocke
This is what I'm working with right now:Quote:
Originally Posted by sauce
4 Submerge
2 Threads
2/2 Red blasts
3 grip
2 pyroclasm
I never board in grave hate vs loam. I chose not to run grave hate at all. Submerge just won me all the aggro loam matches (GRb with and without chalice/confidant)
The plan is to slow them down just long enough to get inside of burn range or even death. (F/I and submerge really shine here)
I boarded against loam submerges, but i just have quite bad luck :( Everytime when i played submerge to tarmogoyf, response to fetching he draw it next turn :cry: Those PoPs would shine there, i will put them sideboard for next tournament, also against TES they would be nice (0 basics) :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Waikiki
so you want to get crushed by landstill/ichorid too?Quote:
Originally Posted by Waikiki
i dont understand why relic is not the shiznyte?
in the mirror you can make sure their mongoose never hits threshold which seems really good... and in other matchups you can prevent annoying recursion of wasteland and shrink terravore.
also, you will auto lose to ichorid w/o relic/crypt.
submerge is CUTE, but it wont help you vs ichorid.
Do Notice I play canadian thresh. That mean's Relic would suck big time for me. I Haven't ever felt the need for grave hate vs landstill. And I chose to give up the ichorid matchup because it's on the decline in my meta. And even then it's not an autoloose for me. Submerge helps me against way more decks then crypt/relic does.Quote:
Originally Posted by sauce
(nod) I agree fully and like the above SB except I REALLY want 2 price of progress afterall 43 lands goes from a auto loss to an auto win in with 2 cards... Landstill gets much easier, and so does aggro loam, each tough matchups. Disrupt isnt good enough. I would cut the threads for them but thats just me as you have the mirror blasts which should take care of forces and CBs to let your goyfs get there.Quote:
[Economics]
The point of disrupt is not about just how good it is, or its "general utility." The question is about its "marginal utility", or how useful it is compared to everything else you could be using. Yes, it is nice to have in the combo matchups, but is it really better to devote four slots solely to the combo matchup when those slots could be better put to use elsewhere? Seeing as reb is still managable against combo, why do we cut off four slots of our already crammed sb? Their marginal utility is low because of the number of matchups they are useful in as well as how useful they are in those matchups. As for control, reb is much, much better against blue control and other control decks tend to play a lot of land to cast their expensive spells (making extra dazes weak). Low marginal utility means they get cut from my sb so my other matchups can get better.
[/Economics]
Also, test submerge if you think it's weak. I did as well at first, but I tested it and now I understand. It might even be better against loam than relic.
Also in tempo what do you think of -1 fire ice +1 vendillion clique. The card is so good at staying alive with only one real compedator from matchups you dont win drasticaly (Stalker and in good matchups like goblins fanatic.) The tempo swing it creates is awsome and it recycles dazes in the late game. It also helps solve the rare problem of not finding a creature to win it.
The problem with clique is that it's too slow for this format. It's nice in standard and extended because all of the scary spells some down late, but here everything is so cheap that it's just to slow. Also, a three-power guy does nothing in the mirror where it's all about goyfs. It seems okay, but just too cute and not relevant enough, whereas fire/ice is really, really solid all the time.Quote:
Originally Posted by undone
Also, are you suggesting PoP for tempo, with no basics? I understand the point of flame rift and bringing it in when you're the beat down, but it seems just a little too cute to have to cut real sb cards for.