Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
I'm testing this list:
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Aether Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Mother of Runes
3 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Flickerwisp
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Mirran Crusader
2 Recruiter of the Guard
1 Sanctum Prelate
2 Serra Avenger
1 Spirit of the Labyrinth
(22 lands)
1 Cavern of Souls
3 Karakas
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
10 Plains (I will not play less than 10 plains with 22 lands total)
Sideboard:
1 Pithing Needle
2 Containment Priest
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Faerie Macabre (maybe I look "alternative" right now, but I prefer these over surgicals)
1 Sanctum Prelate
1 Palace Jailer
2 Rest in Peace
2 Path to Exile
2 Council's Judgment
Maybe I will side like WashableWater1
On the play I used to side out sofi because it's often the second or third choise with mystic. Usually the main problem is to keep life points up, so you keep batterskull or/and jitte.
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Marungo
A question for everyone. I have 5 cards to board in versus True-Name Grixis Delver which is getting more popular playing 2 True-Name and 2 Gurmag. They are 2 Judgment, 2 Path, and 1 more Sanctum Prelate in addition to the one main. Using Medea's main deck as a guide, what 5 cards do you board out? I worry I may not be boarding correctly and want others thoughts on the matter. I'll hold off on what I board out because I wanna hear others opinions without any influence of how I already board.
Is this with or without DRS? If so, then you can cut all three Revokers. If they do have Deathrite, leaving one in in fine.
I am actually not a huge fan of Prelate here, unless this is version that is completely dependent on one-mana spells. They often have ways to kill things at different mana costs, it often doesn't come down until they have already set up, and the Grey Ogre stats make it fairly useless in combat. The other big issue is that this is presumably there to set on one, but you are boarding in extra Path to Exile. Tread carefully here.
If they are heavy on red removal, you can trim a Mirran Crusader, but you want access to at least one one. Its great with equipment and brickwalls Angler, but just dying to Forked Bolt all the time is bad.
Another thing to keep in mind is what you expect them to do post-board. You often have to deal with things like Dread of Night or Sulfur Elemental. Mother of Runes, Thalia, and Flickerwisp are all quite good in the matchup, but it can also be fine to hedge against the -1 effects by trimming one of a few of your 1 toughness creatures. This is another strong point of Mirran Crusader, because its one of the few respectable creatures even after the minus.
Also keep in mind that it can actually be fine to trim a Plow or two when bringing in Path, as Path is just a strict upgrade here but you might not actually need a full 8 removal spells depending on the situation. Against something like Eldrazi or Infect when all you want to do is kill creatures you just want as many one-mana spells as possible, but against more interactive decks it can be better to have more utility (and you can get stuck with a hand of 2 or 3 Plows and Paths against a True Name).
Not sure about the exact configuration of you opponents deck or what else is in your deck or sideboard, but if you put a gun to my head and made me give you a TL:DR based on your short summary, then:
-3 Revoker, -1 Prelate
+2 Path, +2 Judgment
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
question in the open ? is batterskull still THE maindeck card ? with some people moving to 22 lands.. and eldrazi less prevalent
and if not should sword of light and day ( or war and peace ) take its maindeck spot ...?
in game one SOLAS has the advantage of not being counterproductive .. with a brought in rest in peace... and having a batterskul in your opening hand without a SFM is something nobody likes to see..
greets
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
heyoka
question in the open ? is batterskull still THE maindeck card ? with some people moving to 22 lands.. and eldrazi less prevalent
and if not should sword of light and day ( or war and peace ) take its maindeck spot ...?
in game one SOLAS has the advantage of not being counterproductive .. with a brought in rest in peace... and having a batterskul in your opening hand without a SFM is something nobody likes to see..
greets
Many games SoLaS does nothing at all, so it's often as bad as an uncastable Batterskull. 22 vs 23 lands is not be a substantial factor in determining whether Batterskull should be in the main deck. It's one of the few cards like Flickerwisps that can pull you out of a losing board state because the lifelink is substantial.
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
heyoka
question in the open ? is batterskull still THE maindeck card ? with some people moving to 22 lands.. and eldrazi less prevalent
and if not should sword of light and day ( or war and peace ) take its maindeck spot ...?
in game one SOLAS has the advantage of not being counterproductive .. with a brought in rest in peace... and having a batterskul in your opening hand without a SFM is something nobody likes to see..
greets
Batterskull wasn't added to the deck to combat Eldrazi. It adds flexibility to Stoneforge Mystic, allowing it to be significantly more threatening and representing a more mana efficienct recurring threat. When you cut Batterskull, Stoneforge no longer can be a 4/4 vigilance lifelink.
SoLaS is also a very weak replacement. It serves a similar function to SoFi, but is significantly more situational. Each can get you +1 card, but SoLaS requires there to be a useful creature in the yard and then to not have an active DRS. It's also only +2 damage compared to +4 for all the other equipment. It's in general a poor card that is good only in specific matchups.
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
22 lands is the consensus now?
Way back in time, when thomas won his first GP with D&T, the stock list had 23 lands with Batterskull and the need for mana to operate ports.
I'm still using 23 lands and still having mana problems from time to time. I also use 2 Canopies to have some card draw if i draw too many lands...
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tylert
22 lands is the consensus now?
Way back in time, when thomas won his first GP with D&T, the stock list had 23 lands with Batterskull and the need for mana to operate ports.
I'm still using 23 lands and still having mana problems from time to time. I also use 2 Canopies to have some card draw if i draw too many lands...
The difference between 22 and 23 lands is not going to be easy to make out by playing games. You'll get stuck with 23 lands and flood with 22. I believe that the optimal number with a stock list is slightly more than 23. 22 will still be fine, just slightly suboptimal.
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
23 is the safer play over a large number of games, imo.
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Using this baseline strategy implemented at https://repl.it/IXTG/40:
* For 7-card hands, mulligan all 3- and 4-vial hands, and otherwise keep hands with 2-5 lands/vials and at least 1 land.
* For 6-card hands, mulligan all 3- and 4-vial hands, and otherwise keep hands with 2-4 lands/vials and at least 1 land.
* For 5-card hands, mulligan all 3- and 4-vial hands, and otherwise keep hands with 1-4 lands/vials and at least 1 land.
You get:
23 lands, 15 W:
- Distribution of keepable hand sizes
- 4 card keeps: 0.0025
- 5 card keeps: 0.0240
- 6 card keeps: 0.0964
- 7 card keeps: 0.8771
- Playable Flickerwisp
- Turn 3 - 0.6835
- Turn 4 - 0.8937
22 lands, 14 W:
- Distribution of keepable hand sizes
- 4 card keeps: 0.0032
- 5 card keeps: 0.0273
- 6 card keeps: 0.1035
- 7 card keeps: 0.8660
- Playable Flickerwisp
- Turn 3 - 0.6424
- Turn 4 - 0.8747
So if you drop from 23 lands to 22 lands you will get "punished" in the following ways:
* You will be forced to mulligan your 7s when you otherwise would not have in 1% of games
* You will be unable to cast 1WW spells on turn 3 when you otherwise would not have in 4% of games
* You will be unable to deploy 1WW creatures by turn 4 when you otherwise would have in 2% of games
I play 24 lands FWIW like Bahra did. It is a tradeoff, but we have so many mana sinks (equipment especially Batterskull, port, wasteland) that I don't really have any desire to shave more and more lands. There is a real cost to doing so. :/
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Hey, what is everyone's thoughts on playing Vials into/around Daze? I had a situation where I was on the draw against U/R Delver, he led on Swiftspear and I played my Vial and got it Dazed. I ended up losing the game, and was not sure if I should have waited to play the Vial. My thinking was that Vials are great and I should try to keep one around, but U/R Delver's clock is fast enough that if I fall behind, a late Vial would not help me catch up.
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tovarisch
Hey, what is everyone's thoughts on playing Vials into/around Daze? I had a situation where I was on the draw against U/R Delver, he led on Swiftspear and I played my Vial and got it Dazed. I ended up losing the game, and was not sure if I should have waited to play the Vial. My thinking was that Vials are great and I should try to keep one around, but U/R Delver's clock is fast enough that if I fall behind, a late Vial would not help me catch up.
There's no way getting around it. For all you know, you could be playing around a hand that doesn't have any counterspells or you'll just face a Force of Will regardless of whether you play it turn 1 or turn 2. You play the vial and hope it sticks.
I think playing 24 lands is reasonable but should really be paired with things like Horizon Canopy, considering this deck can flood so easily. Death and Taxes has raised its mana curve significantly since the addition of Conspiracy cards.
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Thanks for those numbers Chris, I think they confirm what most of us who have played thousands of games have internalized. That said - it's not like playing more land is 100% upside either - there will be games where having more land makes you flood out, it's just much harder to put a number on those. But still - legacy is fast and missing land drops early is a common way to lose against basically everyone. I think playing lots of utility lands and not going overboard on basic Plains is a good way to hedge.
On playing vs Daze - I generally prefer to make them have it, especially g2/3 when they may have sided them out. Vs. UR Delver in particular, waiting a turn to play Vial means that you won't be able to Vial in a two drop until...3 turns from now? The game might not even last that long. In other cases you may be able to afford to play around Daze (e.g. they're doing nothing and have a handful of cards) or you can cast your less important spell first. But in general giving tempo decks a free Thalia effect all game is not a solid strategy.
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
I agree. you cannot afford to play around daze. playing around it will be good 50 percent of the time only.
Usually the strength of daze is that people play around it even if you don't have it. Just don't give the blue player that advantage.
You should perhaps mulligan more aggressively hands with 1 land and vial with 3 drops.
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
The only games you can afford to play around Daze on your vial are ones where you aren't facing enough pressure for the extra turn to matter. A Plow-heavy mana light hand is a good example of one that can, or a game against Daze Miracles.
Has anyone that's been looking for a 1WW card that's good against Delver and Czech Pile considered Kitchen Finks? It seems both removal resistant, tutorable, decent at swinging a race, and good with Flickerwisp. I might throw a couple in a build to see how they perform. The Deathrite problem seems real, and the dissynergy with RIP is also awkward, but I think it seems worth a shot.
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
WashableWater1
The only games you can afford to play around Daze on your vial are ones where you aren't facing enough pressure for the extra turn to matter. A Plow-heavy mana light hand is a good example of one that can, or a game against Daze Miracles.
Has anyone that's been looking for a 1WW card that's good against Delver and Czech Pile considered Kitchen Finks? It seems both removal resistant, tutorable, decent at swinging a race, and good with Flickerwisp. I might throw a couple in a build to see how they perform. The Deathrite problem seems real, and the dissynergy with RIP is also awkward, but I think it seems worth a shot.
Are we really that unfavored against delver and 4C czech pile?
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tylert
Are we really that unfavored against delver and 4C czech pile?
Verdict is kind of out on Grixis Delver but based purely on statistics, the 'average' player is not favored to win. Czech Pile is definitely unfavorable because they have all the removal spells in the world and a bunch of 2-for-1s. I remember reading somewhere on reddit that Bahra considers it difficult for DnT to be dominant in this meta due to all the cabal therapies, fatal pushes, and kolaghan's command and these are not even sideboard hate. In addition to this, I would say the main problem is the mana.
I definitely consider Death and Taxes to be the aggressor in these two match-ups. You want them to durdle around with cantrips while you beat them down and hope to accumulate enough card advantage with Stoneforge. If you have a slow start with no Aether Vial or stuck on lands, it's pretty much game over because they can remove your creatures 1-for-1 while beating down with their own. It's hard to mana denial Grixis when they can operate entirely on 1-mana cantrips and Deathrite Shamans and without Aether Vial, you should almost never attempt a turn 2 Wasteland/ Port and take time to develop your own board. My experience is it's often not worth it to StP a Deathrite and save it for Delver/ Pyromancer/ Gurmag.
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Playing against a competent player with Czech Pile feels hopeless. Grixis is also pretty hard.
As for the Vial vs. Daze debate, I always run out a Vial turn 1 whether they have countermagic or not, as it's too good if it sticks. If it gets Forced then that's one less counterspell to get your Thalia or SFM next turn, if it gets Dazed then at least you set them back a mana for next turn (you are a taxing deck, after all). That being said, I'd be hesitant to keep a hand that depended on Vial if I was playing against a Daze deck, such as Port, Wasteland, Vial, and four creatures, because losing that Vial means your hand is crap.
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
grayryker
Verdict is kind of out on Grixis Delver but based purely on statistics, the 'average' player is not favored to win. Czech Pile is definitely unfavorable because they have all the removal spells in the world and a bunch of 2-for-1s. I remember reading somewhere on reddit that Bahra considers it difficult for DnT to be dominant in this meta due to all the cabal therapies, fatal pushes, and kolaghan's command and these are not even sideboard hate. In addition to this, I would say the main problem is the mana.
I definitely consider Death and Taxes to be the aggressor in these two match-ups. You want them to durdle around with cantrips while you beat them down and hope to accumulate enough card advantage with Stoneforge. If you have a slow start with no Aether Vial or stuck on lands, it's pretty much game over because they can remove your creatures 1-for-1 while beating down with their own. It's hard to mana denial Grixis when they can operate entirely on 1-mana cantrips and Deathrite Shamans and without Aether Vial, you should almost never attempt a turn 2 Wasteland/ Port and take time to develop your own board. My experience is it's often not worth it to StP a Deathrite and save it for Delver/ Pyromancer/ Gurmag.
Grixis Delver feels very dependent on familiarity with the matchup. While there are definitely games where mana denial is bad, or where you shouldnt Plow a Deathrite, being able to read the situation and know when to go for the throat is pretty key. I wouldnt say that you play the aggressor, but you need to be able to win the game before they just burn you out. Overall it feels quite close to even to me.
Czech Pile can feel very bad, but in my experience is actually close to even or favorable. As with Delver, mana denial is hit or miss, so knowing when to use it is difficult. K Command is always good, but it is possible to play as to prevent it from being great. Solid sideboarding makes the matchup feel like one that I'm happy to face off against.
Both of these decks to me feel quite close to even, but even still it seems worth it to explore options that can promote the matchup from even to favorable. A lot of people have been posting about creatures that line up well against the specific removal that these decks pack, but many of those cards are pretty lackluster in other matchups. My interest in exploring Kitchen Finks is that it seems like it solves some of the problems that I have with these matchups while not being overspecialized.
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
WashableWater1
Grixis Delver feels very dependent on familiarity with the matchup. While there are definitely games where mana denial is bad, or where you shouldnt Plow a Deathrite, being able to read the situation and know when to go for the throat is pretty key. I wouldnt say that you play the aggressor, but you need to be able to win the game before they just burn you out. Overall it feels quite close to even to me.
Czech Pile can feel very bad, but in my experience is actually close to even or favorable. As with Delver, mana denial is hit or miss, so knowing when to use it is difficult. K Command is always good, but it is possible to play as to prevent it from being great. Solid sideboarding makes the matchup feel like one that I'm happy to face off against.
Both of these decks to me feel quite close to even, but even still it seems worth it to explore options that can promote the matchup from even to favorable. A lot of people have been posting about creatures that line up well against the specific removal that these decks pack, but many of those cards are pretty lackluster in other matchups. My interest in exploring Kitchen Finks is that it seems like it solves some of the problems that I have with these matchups while not being overspecialized.
I mean you have to read the situation - these are just general guidelines for what you should do. By all means StP the Deathrite Shaman if you see your opponent miss a 2nd land drop and shuffle their scry, with wasteland backup. In general, the games DnT wins against Grixis is when they win the tempo race with Thalia and Aether Vial.
Not sure how Czech Pile could be favorable. You're speaking in very general terms right now (e.g how can you make K-Command great to good? It's an inherent 2-for-1 card, you have no hand information, and you cannot win this match-up by playing too conservatively). What's your definition of a solid sideboarding?
We can discuss Kitchen Finks. Its lifegain is irrelevant against Czech Pile but has uses against Grixis Delver. It doesn't match up well against the key threats offensively or defensively: gurmag angler, true-name, Leovold (can be okay but only before persist trigger), young pyromancer, baleful strix. And I can't think of a match-up aside from the classic creature based aggro (burn, merfolk, goblins) where this card is good. A lot of the other cards discussed here like Restoration Angel or even Fiendslayer Paladin have more versatility here. For example, Angel gets around a lot of removals and attacks over Leovold/ TNN and surprise block Delver. Paladin-en Vec is also a pretty good card as it blocks and gets protected from most of those threats; it's less versatile but more powerful than Fiendslayer against Grixis and Czech Pile.
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
grayryker
I mean you have to read the situation - these are just general guidelines for what you should do. By all means StP the Deathrite Shaman if you see your opponent miss a 2nd land drop and shuffle their scry, with wasteland backup. In general, the games DnT wins against Grixis is when they win the tempo race with Thalia and Aether Vial.
Not sure how Czech Pile could be favorable. You're speaking in very general terms right now (e.g how can you make K-Command great to good? It's an inherent 2-for-1 card, you have no hand information, and you cannot win this match-up by playing too conservatively). What's your definition of a solid sideboarding?
We can discuss Kitchen Finks. Its lifegain is irrelevant against Czech Pile but has uses against Grixis Delver. It doesn't match up well against the key threats offensively or defensively: gurmag angler, true-name, Leovold (can be okay but only before persist trigger), young pyromancer, baleful strix. And I can't think of a match-up aside from the classic creature based aggro (burn, merfolk, goblins) where this card is good. A lot of the other cards discussed here like Restoration Angel or even Fiendslayer Paladin have more versatility here. For example, Angel gets around a lot of removals and attacks over Leovold/ TNN and surprise block Delver. Paladin-en Vec is also a pretty good card as it blocks and gets protected from most of those threats; it's less versatile but more powerful than Fiendslayer against Grixis and Czech Pile.
You make K command less good by always thinking about which modes they would use on the board. Playing patiently so that they have to make you discard, or have to just tap a mom, or wait until you have vial on 3. Why isn't the matchup bad? Although they play a lot of removal and maindeck artifact destruction, they're still playing a pretty slow 4 color blue deck with a bunch of 3 drops and cantrips. That offers you a lot of angles to apply pressure, such as keeping them off colors or developing a board while they pay 2 mana to cantrip. They only have a couple huge threats, Jace and Gurmag. They're very weak to Rest In Peace. They're extremely weak to Cataclysm. It's even because it comes down largely to how well then half of the deck you drew counters the half of deck they drew.
Why I like Finks against Czech Pile is because many games that I've played where you have a SoFi or SoLaS in play and who wins comes down to drawing one more creature than they draw removal spells. Kitchen Finks acts as 2 creatures in this game. It is weak to Deathrite and to Snapcaster, but I'm just sitting throwing ideas out there. I like a lot of what Kitchen Finks does bring to the table. I think that looking for the best White Knight is barking up the wrong tree. Attacking for 2 a turn vs 3 a turn is huge. In matchups that aren't Czech or maybe Delver for the lifelink Knight, you'll be playing a 3 mana 2/2. It will be the worst card in your deck by far. Mirran Crusader is great because at worst he attacks for 4. Playing a significantly weaker creature to beat 1 or possibly 2 bolts does not seem good enough to me. I've also been running into way more edicts than I used to, which sort of takes away that one reason you ran a Knight (it's unkillable). I would sort of like a better threat against Delver, but I've yet to figure out what it is.
What I mean by solid sideboarding is having a sideboard beat with Czech Pile in mind and not falling into card evaluation traps. I initially was sideboarding like I was playing a creature light midrange deck, leaving in 2 plows etc. it's pretty tough to suss out how good certain cards are, such as I'm still not sure if Revoker is good and Serra Avenger is bad, or if Councils Judgement isn't actually terrible. The traps that I've seen people fall into are playing Palace Jailer against Czech, or even bringing it in. I've put Gideon's in my sideboard because I thought they were going to be slam dunks that solved the creature problem. Im really happy with my current sideboard plan, but I'm not sure if it's actually optimal.
