Well, pay 2 life, draw a card, +1 delve mana for one. Gitaxian Probe exacerbated the effect of cards like DTT and TC; the card enables no mechanics that make legacy better.Quote:
Originally Posted by taconaut
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Well, pay 2 life, draw a card, +1 delve mana for one. Gitaxian Probe exacerbated the effect of cards like DTT and TC; the card enables no mechanics that make legacy better.Quote:
Originally Posted by taconaut
See, that just seems so innocuous to me - plus, TC and DTT are banned, so I see where you're coming from, but in this context they're not relevant to the Legacy we're discussing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
As for the second part, I don't think there has ever been a game improved in any way by Chalice of the Void, or Thorn of Amethyst, or Griselbrand, but I don't think they need to be banned either.
So the issue with Gitaxian is more that if it isn't a problem, then it's lurking around until it can make itself a problem. The same can be said of Counterbalance, massive lurking problem but currently no supporting piece. These cards will never stop trying to blight the format; the mechanical problems they create when combined with other cards only exist b/c of the original cards [CB, Probe]. The example could be expanded to DRS and Brainstorm; it's actually the mechanics of fetchlands that made the problem possible. It doesn't make much sense to not ban the actual problem, but keep banning all the cards (that they are going to keep printing) which can exploit the mechanical flaw.
The bit about fetchlands comes with an asterisk, their absence would create irreconcilable financial death spiral until such a time that the RL policy was rescinded.
Chalice/Thorn are a function of Ancient Tomb being legal. Grisel is enabled, in the most offensive form (B/R reanimator), by Chancellor of the Annex being legal [also SnT]. I don't think these two are pressing issues, but if approaching these as problems to be solved, I'd begin analysis here.
As an opinion, I don't mind broken things in legacy, but I do want there to be a reasonable expectation that gamestates break down and devolve somewhat to the point that a matchup was at least interesting if not genuinely interactive. There was nothing thought provoking or interesting with U/R TC Delver, OmniTell w/ DTT, nor CB/SDT lock.
I beg to differ. These cards offer the same advantages to the format that Bloodmoon, Back to Basics or Rest in Peace do. They punish you for building in a hyperfocused, linear way. If we are going to accept that playing decks with 8 to 12 one drop "Air" cards in them for filtering is ok, we need to accept an answer also needs to be available.Quote:
Originally Posted by taconaut
I will agree is sucks to be on the receiving end of these cards, God knows I have likely lost to a Bloodmoon more than any of you have to a Chalice, but these cards are a safety valve for those times the format becomes too inbred and insular
Yes, I totally agree, that's why I think they should remain legal. My point was that "subjectively unenjoyable play experiences" are not necessarily a ban criteria for Legacy, and that I feel most of the arguments against GP or DRS fall into this category (where people just don't like playing against them, not that they're broken).Quote:
Originally Posted by Dice_Box
I totally agree. What I love about legacy is the battle between popular stategies and strategies praying on popular strategies. As long as the anti-cards exist no strategy can be too dominant. Chalice, thalia et al, blood moon and rest in peace are such cards.. They are valuable for the format's health!Quote:
Originally Posted by Dice_Box
And probe adds nothing valuable to the format, only taking away the skill needed to play the game and exacerbating the blue stew
I agree. But then they need to functionally reprint Street Wraith cause I wanna keep playing Manaless Dredge.Quote:
Originally Posted by Megadeus
That's fair, but I do wish to debate one thing. I run Chalice and Sphere in the side of Lands. Used to be Thorn but Aluren punched me and I adapted. I would argue that combo matches have been improved by putting a gate up and forcing a reaction in place of a goldfish. I don't think it's much fun for an ANT player to win without ever facing a single speed bump or question.Quote:
Originally Posted by taconaut
In place of counters, hand disruption or Mindbreak cards like Chalice, Thorn or Sphere do allow for some games to be far more interesting and interactive than they otherwise would have been. Because they grant both the player using them and the player who sideboards right against them a game of cat and mouse, knowing when to react and what you need to win. Games improved by these Artifacts.
Just don't make it Modern legal.Quote:
Originally Posted by JackaBo
Yup, still agree - I just think people make it out like Probe is a zero skill card, which is false, especially in the context of, "welp, here's a sol land and a chalice, hope you didn't need any of your one-drops" as though playing those cards somehow makes them more skillful than players that like cantrips. :really:Quote:
Originally Posted by Dice_Box
So many of the posters seem to just call for everything to be banned, but never talk about what the ideal games of their desired format would be. If people just want to ram non-blue duders into each other/each other's removal and have top-deck wars to see who wins, there are actually a ton of magic formats that focus on just that kind of play. In legacy, sometimes you have to play against strategies you don't personally enjoy; in exchange, you can play any strategy you do personally enjoy. (Edit: well, except maybe non-tempo aggro? Certainly, decks come in and out of vogue, especially now that Miracles is much weaker.)
That's why I focus on Chalice and its ilk as a Storm player: are they miserable, reductive cards that seem to lack any particular nuance or skill? Maybe to me personally, but my opinion on that doesn't matter, and I understand they are valuable to the format for the reasons you've stated that I agree with on a high level. Thus, I don't think they should be banned.
Ultimately, what I'm getting at is that all of these cards are fine. One of legacy's strengths is its diverse strategic options, and I think calling for ever more bannings only risks losing those choices.
+1Quote:
Originally Posted by taconaut
It costs a single blue or 2 life.Quote:
Originally Posted by btm10
It's not even an instant, I'd love to hear the salt if it was.
For drs to be a manadork a grave needs a land, something that is not a constant.
Probe being banned would basically (probably) swap Grixis Delver for BUG Delver, Grixis Control for BUG Control (.. maybe*) and.. that's about it.
The main thing about Probe is that it makes the parts of the game that are not supposed to be deterministic become deterministic and it lowers the skill threshold of decks that use it. The things it enables in Legacy are also only bad:
* Pumps graveyards (routinely a problem)
* It costs 0 mana (routinely a problem)
* Thusly boosts Oops, Dredge, and Belcher -> These are things nobody wants; even those players ;p
* Is an Instant/Sorcery for Delver that is never bad (barring Chalice/D&T)
* Makes Cabal Therapy *ridiculous* instead of just "Still usually the best discard"
Like.. Storm is still a deck without Probe, as is S&T, as is Grixis Delver etc.. but they no longer get the free ride they currently get. It's obnoxious that you can have a hand like Stifle, Force, Waste, (Ucard) and that be insufficient hate because the storm player saw it before using discard for "0" mana T1, fetched a basic despite needing a USea and knows that it takes 2+ discard to go off. It makes S&T less interesting because instead of presuming they can go off, they just *know*.
Card games are supposed to be somewhat non-deterministic, and GProbe not only has major traits of problem cards (and has been banned as such in the other formats) but it makes the "Card game" aspect no longer a thing. It removes bluffing for no mana, no tempo, no cards. It drops the skill level of your opponent on top of it.
I don't know if it's "Worthy" of a ban yet, but it's certainly obnoxious and has all the hallmarks of one. It *will* break something if it hasn't already. It's probably not causing Legacy to Hemorrhage players yet, so that's enough for me to be "meh" on it; but I certainly won't shed a tear if "Pyro, Probe, Cabal Cabal Go" isn't a thing on T2.
I don't imagine there is a single Dredge player who dislikes the Boost the deck gets from G-Probe. Dredge is struggling, and I can't understand why you think Dredge players would want the deck to struggle even more.Quote:
Originally Posted by tescrin
Personally Dredge is the only reason I particularly like the card (although I don’t think there's any good reason to ban it).
Because it puts any slower deck, that can't afford to run it, at an huge disadvantage to combo and tempo, because their whole play becomes deteministic and 100% plannable for 0 cost (in their deck) which pisses me offQuote:
Originally Posted by taconaut
Unless G-Probe enables the accurate prediction of every card either player will draw till the end of the game, play is not deterministic. There are still possibilities that need to be accounted for. G-Probe reveals a lot of information, but it doesn't remove the element of chance from the game any more than a Thoughtseize does.Quote:
Originally Posted by MorphBerlin
Any slower deck not running CotV? :pQuote:
Originally Posted by MorphBerlin
Regardless I'm not sure I believe every midrange and control deck in the format is a dog to Storm, S&T, and Delver. That sounds far fetched.
I don't think I can agree here as I don't see which decks "can't afford to run it" given the card is as unrestrictive as Mental Misstep which made it even into non-blue decks back in the days. In fact, decks like D&T haven't even explored to use Probe to determine if they should drop a Thalia or SFM turn two, for example.Quote:
Originally Posted by MorphBerlin
Given that in like 60% of matchups across the meta you play against other decks with Cantrips, its quite a stretch to argue that a single Probe is able to reveal the opponents plays to come. Similar is true for non-blue matchups which include engines like Loam or any topdecking in general.
Meta-question : Wouldn't a Legacy restricted list mitigate most of the conflict betweem proponents and opponents of certain cards?
Definitively not saying it should happen but through the prism of a restricted list, like a watchfog of the format, Legacy could stay stable despite any printings to come.
The format which is managed that way over the last years is widely known as "Vintage". A selected, inbreed group of people bitch about a card and then it gets restricted to have less of an impactQuote:
Originally Posted by jandax
Neither of the "Eternal" formats have a very stellar B&R management:Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
Modern: Too many bans too fast - while it has slowed down, they were pretty trigger happy when it was a PT format
Legacy: The exact opposite - they can't be assed to ban shit even when it's blatantly obvious that something is broken. 1 year to ban DTT and 3 years of Miracle's dominace are just the "latest" examples for that.
Vintage: Randy Buehler's friends complain on Twitter that they don't like card X and it gets restricted.
Being fair, DTT didn't see heavy play until after the cruise ban. 6 months was not an unreasonable amount of time to give the meta a chance to adjust and police itself.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barook
Miracles is a different story because not everyone agrees it even deserved a ban. WotC themselves said power level alone was not sufficient for a ban. I'm of the opinion it was only borderline OP.
Edit - of course I have no interest in debating the SDT post mortem. Just saying that your assertion that Miracles should have got a ban much sooner is not a cut and dry fact.
This is correct, U/R TC Delver was tier 0. The timing window vs this deck was likely too narrow for DTT OmniTell to assert itself. Until TC was banned, DTT was not actually a ban-worthy card in anything but theory. In either case though Git. Probe was far and away the main enabler and should have been banned before either of the delve spells.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crimhead
Am I reading you correctly here? A free Peek is a stronger card than Ancestral Recall at sorcery speed, and Ancestral Memories for two mana at instant speed?Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
The reason you could cast TC that quickly was Gitaxian Probe (and again, fetchlands). That's not a controversial statement.Quote:
Originally Posted by DarthVicious
Probe +1 delve mana. Draws a cantrip. Fetch. Cantrip for 1 mana. 3 in yard, pass turn. Opponent plays delve hater DRS, pass turn (we'll assume it resolved). Land, double cantrip, between 5 and 6 in yard before DRS ever got a crack at challenging the engine - situation exacerbated if they found Probe #2. This is how DTT OmniTell worked; the same idea with TC U/R Delver except they are flinging Bolts every which way and deploying Delver or Swiftspear on way to TC.
Ancestral Recall has zero build-around. It is a mistake to look at what DTT and TC do and ignore how they have to be enabled to unlock that effect [Probe primarily]. Again just like DRS and Brainstorm, what they do doesn't matter - it's a second party at fault [fetchlands here].
Obviously my statment was hyperbolic regarding probe but this is the b&r threat after all.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
Yes obviously decks that would run mistep cant afford to run probe. Missteps actually stops you opp from doing something, so any reactive deck would happily exchange 2 life to counter something in Legacy, the 1drop fromat. These card are not the same, still probe is annoying as fuck because making games into an ape contest for tempo and especially combo.
@Crimehad: I didn't say those decks are dogs, I said they are put at a fundermental disatvantage because they can't play porbe which gives the named decks free information and a 56 card deck. And comparing Probe to Thoughtseize is just a joke, the don't even have colse to the same purpose. I hope I don't have to draw that out.
Probe being one of the many cards that enabled the broken delve cards does not make Probe itself broken. Baubles enable delve too, are they broken? The interaction between Probe & Therapy isn't exactly broken either. Strong, yes. If Probe was broken, more people would consider Glasses of Urza.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
Fetchlands are another issue entirely. That I'm not going into, other people have gone into that often enough and I might get some kind of magical internet STD from going in there myself.
Baubles don't pitch to FoW, draw the same turn, trigger YP, nor tell you what to search for with that cantrip chain. Baubles also increase the clock enemy Goyf would present (still relevant consideration before Fatal Push). They are not broken because a deck with Baubles isn't going to combo off on opponent's upkeep after they pick up a card; they also aren't going to make a land drop on time with Bauble's draw.Quote:
Originally Posted by DarthVicious
And uhm, people in the DnT thread are actually considering Glasses of Urza...
Oh come on Fox ... you can't point to Probe being the reason that TC & DTT were OP, if every deck which ran these started with 8 Fetches, 4 Brainstorm and 4 Ponder by default to cycle 10% of their deck into the yard by turn 3.
And probe was just exacerbating the issue by being another cog in the retarded blue stewQuote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
Clearly it was thoughtscour that should’ve been banned, that card was Blue Ritual in those decks.
Yesterday it happend again:
G1 get probed, therapy your force. Two turns later probe again to see if there is another one. No >Storm off
G2 keep 7, play a BS, on the opps turn, probe-> no blue card for force, combo off with no discard.
Such an ape card, even chalice and blood moon might take more skill than this :D
A deck that is disadvantaged is an underdog. A deck that has the advantage is a favourite.Quote:
Originally Posted by MorphBerlin
If all your saying is that Probe decks have a strength that other decks don't, that's hardly worth mentioning because every deck has strengths that other decks do not.
As far as imparting perfect information and making play deterministic, they both do this to the same extent. Hope I don’t have to draw that out.Quote:
Originally Posted by MorphBerlin
This sounds like you're just mad that you didn't have adequate protection - if those probes were discard spells, you still lose both games, and they still get to see your hand - what makes probe so special? If they probe you and see Daze, Fluster, Force, Pheldagrif, Mindbreak Trap, they can have all the information in the world and still lose because you came prepared. Plus, if you're playing a storm player that doesn't probe you there AND doesn't have discard, but takes the correct risk to make you have it with low information, you still don't win either of those games. I'm not sure what you expect - what would a skilled combo game look like?Quote:
Originally Posted by MorphBerlin
Wait. So g2 you're OTP with BS, FOW, land, and 4 other non-blue no-interaction cards. You don't mulligan (questionable, but possibly correct depending on what deck you're on), then BS, spending your only blue card, MAIN PHASE? If you'd just held your BS until after he probed he might have been too scared to go off. Hell, if you just didn't BS at all you would have been fine since he didn't have any discard!Quote:
Originally Posted by MorphBerlin
I certainly don't like the card, but you can't blame this one on probe.
Yes storm is too good, let's ban a card out of it /sQuote:
Originally Posted by MorphBerlin
Complaining about the power level of probe when you're playing brainstorm is pretty ClownFiesta IMO
We need more unbans and less bans :(
@ph88
No I kept, 4 lands BS Pyro Spellbomb, bad hand but better then 6 in my mind, blast his t1 BS, play bs main because of the chance to hit Thoughtseize, only find fow without blue card. Die on his turn. Might have played suboptimally but that's easy to say in hindsight. If it was a discard spell I get another turn because of the mana.
@taconaut
What makes probe special? Its a 0 mana card that puts you at a big advantage information wise. I would play the hack out of a 0 mana peek that lets ne play 56 cards. I am pretty sure a Strom deck with 6 discard and 4 probe is much stronger than a 10 discard storm deck. Because there would be some hell of clubky draws but probe just recycles itself every time.
Skill cuz you have to know how to choose which one to slam [emoji23]Quote:
Originally Posted by MorphBerlin
Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk
That hand is pretty marginal, it relies heavily on getting a good brainstorm. I see why you kept it, but I think a six could potentially be better (depending on what you're playing, not sure what deck you're on). If it's a discard spell, in this specific case, you don't even get to brainstorm and just get super hosed; in the general case, sometimes it gives you an extra turn, but I've had plenty of games where I can deploy discard and go off in the same turn.Quote:
Originally Posted by MorphBerlin
I agree that 6 discard/4 probe is probably better than 10 discard, but, if you're saying:
- zero mana peek is too strong, and you would play four
- zero mana peek exists and is Gitaxian Probe
then why are you not playing it already? If the answer is that it is not optimal for your deck to do so, then one of the above postulates must not be true. I would argue that both of them are untrue; gitaxian probe is not free (though I agree it's as close to free as something gets in Magic) and it's not broken in the way that you say, otherwise every deck would play it, and we know they don't.
Well you see probe does the same as a discard spell but 4 probe is better then 4 more discard spells so you got your own logicical inconsequences mate ;)
I think 0 mana peek is too strong yes and probe is as close to it as it gets. And in these shells it is 0-Mana peek
My main reason for complaint is not power level though, it's just the dullness of that card that takes away something basic from the game