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Not to mention we basically bend over backwards to one narrow deck skeleton without maindeck interaction to do that and play like half a ban list's worth of broken ass cards to make that happen. It literally takes nerfed versions of Ancestral, Tinker, Demonic and Academy in the same deck to compete.Quote:
Originally Posted by FoolofaTook
FoW and Cruise aren't even close to Brainstorm's power level. They are close in ubiquity, but mostly because Brainstorm supercharges the other two cards (by allowing you to more reliably locate a blue card and filter situationally weak cards, and the Brainstorm fetch-fest that all these blue decks have because fuels Treasure Cruises alt cost). If you think they are all about as good as each other then you are wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by AznSeal
You are correct in that people will 'just play the next best thing' but the difference between Brainstorm and the 'next best thing' is pretty wide in terms of card quality and selection.
You might be correct that without Brainstorm to break the Miracle mechanic and allow for absurd 18 land 6 mana producing land mana bases elves might then be the most consistent deck. Brainstorm being gone would also hamper some of the combo decks that prey upon elves (Reanimator comes to mind). Elves is currently running 2 cards that are far better than some cards on the banned list as well in Natural Order and GSZ. The thing about elves is that fundamentally it's a creature deck and can be attacked from that angle, people aren't necessarily committed enough. The new priest is also a decent, flexible option.
In my utopia
Ban: Brainstorm
Unban: Mind Twist, Survival of the Fittest, Black Vise, Worldgorger Dragon (good luck without Brainstorm), Frantic Search (throw blue an over costed bone to fuel cruise / dig)
You could even make an argument that if Brainstorm goes you could unban Gush. (quietly leaves)
Reallistically, if they really wanted to weaken the overpowered blue shell in general, they would have to ban Brainstorm AND Ponder in tandem, similiar to Vintage. But people would riot if they did that.
They could just ban Brainstorm and probably Treasure Cruise and they'd reset the meta some. Those are the two most powerful cards in the blue shell at this point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barook
Preordain would definitely be the replacement for Brainstorm and it just isn't the same thing. It's not a cantrip-counter-hidestuff-draw 3 with garbage in hand and a fetch. Brainstorm and Treasure Cruise are the two cheap draw 3's in the meta right now - getting rid of them would significantly weaken the blue shell.
+1Quote:
Originally Posted by nedleeds
Black Vise really is stronger than people understand. It's like a turn 1 bolt that keeps giving and the fact that it has other uses also, like for Goblin Welder and Transmute Artifact among others just makes it a tough card to inject into the Legacy meta. How many 1cc artifacts are worth 5 or 6 damage at the start of the game and then eminently chuckable to some other powerful effect?
Mind Twist is ok I guess. It'll enable mid-range control but that's something we probably should be doing anyway in Legacy at this point.
I get that Black Vise could easily be a poor draw after the opening but Vise-Stifle-Wasteland is just such a ridiculous easily played sequence that I don't think that really matters. RUG being able to kill somebody without putting a creature on the board is a *very* bad thing.
I'd like to see Ponder play out ... I think you might also see Portent come back if anyone thinks Miracles can still work. Ponder can still enable the 18 land mana bases but it's far less effective at skirting targeted discard, far less effective at unmulliganning, and obviously doesn't break miracles.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barook
I think Treasure Cruise would still be a great card but without Brainstorm you'd see it's efficiency decline. You can't hide it from early discard, you can't churn and chain Brainstorms into more fetches as quickly.Quote:
Originally Posted by FoolofaTook
I'm fine with Treasure Cruise, Ponder, Preordain (etc.) ... and again I think Frantic Search could come off if Brainstorm leaves. You'd reward the blue deck for hitting their land drops. It would be a powerful 3 mana play, and supercharge the delve cards on the 4th and 5th turns.
I've said it before. To people thinking it's possible for wotc to ban brainstorm, there is no reason not to ban fetches instead (except that they just reprinted them, we'd have to wait for like two years from now). If brainstorm is super strong it's because fetches help you shuffle post brainstorm reliably.
Fetches are the cards that were poorly designed for eternal matter. Not just because the synergy with bilands is very powerful, but also because they didn't consider when they designed them that the shuffling effect will become an important ressource AND that putting a land in the graveyard is an important ressource.
Fetches are what makes brainstorm a non garbage card, they power up tarmogoyf, power up mongoose and knight of the reliquary a lot, and make deathrite and sensei's divining top absurdly good. It also make us all run ponder rather than preordain because of the synergy.
I don't think wizards will ban brainstorm nor fetches because players like them a lot and they are a commercial company, not a sport federation. But if that wasn't the case then clearly banning fetches would be the right move and would nerf everyone usually just playing 3-4 colour good-stuff with brainstorm.
EDIT : And add treasure cruise/DTT to the list of cards I gave.
I am already looking at getting into Vintage, if they take fetches from me I will just have a box full of legacy staples that I can use to build Vintage.
Banning fetches seems like the best way to stop 3-4 color goodstuff, but then combo takes a huge hit too. I could totally be on board with fetch bans, but at that point what's stopping Goblins from becoming a monster in the format? Without access to consistent fixing, decks would end up running more weird nonbasics (scars lands come to mind), which then makes Wasteland stronger. Without fetches, Stifle becomes less of a 1-mana Stone Rain, and less Stifle would also probably open the door for more monocolor lists with Waste/Port.
I think the Legacy B&R is an anomaly from a balance perspective. How many new (or even 1-2 year Standard players) would understand that a format's entire power level comes from being able to run almost no mana-producing lands and hitting yourself for 4 or more damage every game in a format where Storm, Burn, Elves, Reanimator, and Dredge can turn you into a smoldering pile of mush by the end of the 3rd turn? Legacy is some kind of anomalous monster where decks are consistent because half of the mainboard is dedicated to getting that consistency.
The worst part is, almost half of the banlist wouldn't power up any archetypes to compete with Bugman and Miracles. As other people have said, the only things that can deal with this oppressive pressure being put out by tempo decks powered by a more consistent Nacatl with evasion is essentially an entire list dedicated to turning Legacy into Vintage (Elves), decks that completely remove interaction (Burn) or entire lists built around stabilizing harder than the deck with a nigh-unkillable 3/2 flyer (Shardless, Miracles, D&T). At this point, I don't even think some insane unban like Tinker could change where the power in the format lies.
Personally, I'd rather see Brainstorm nerfed than outright banned. Fetches might be the right thing to kick out the door, but that ruins too many other archetypes than Uxx Delver goodstuff. I am not a game designer, so I say unban Black Vise so I can sell my 10 copies at 4-5 times what I paid for them. Either that or ban Delver, DRS and Top.
Banning fetches would completely alter the face of Legacy, and I don't think in a good way.
That would actually kill a good chunk of diversity, unlike banning an overpowered cantrip that can be replaced with other things.
Take a wild guess who's going to be the winner in the face of more inconsistent manabases? The blue cantrip decks (and mono-colored decks like D&T), since they can still outclass other decks in terms of consistency.
The sad part is that Wizards isn't going to print any actual powerful fetchland hosers because it would hurt Modern's manabases.
I'd rather see Brainstorm gone than fetches gone. Ponder and Preordain are really strong, very fun cards that allow you to be in control of your own destiny, but you can fight those with other colors' tools much better and they remove some of the special treatment Brainstorm gives blue wrt clunky cards and whatnot. One also has to consider that the nerfing of things like KotR isn't really desirable because KotR is again a strong nonblue card selection tool to some extent. It's only good if KotR is strong to offset blue's card selection.
While fetchlands are cancerous for deck building, I wouldn't love to see them gone. We're Legacy, we play with powerful cards. Fetchlands are far from broken, although they allow ridiculous manabases like 10 fetches 6 real lands.
Yet this isn't oppresive, at least not in a way how BS eliminates or fuels several factors/aspects/w-e of the gameplay. Fetchland simply find a land, and it's not that outrageous effect for the game where lands (although not exactly the non-basic ones) are basic deck-building and gameplay requirement.
BS is what is broken and I can see it gone. It's not that I'd love if WotC banned the card, but maybe I'd fall in love after a while, esp. if that ban would be accompanied by some interesting unban.
In fact I think that RUG - and I bring this deck coz it's the only one I kept and I'm perfectly happy with the decision - would be far less hurt than say Miracles, a deck that not only uses the power of BS to unmulligan, but also to set up the miracles triggers. RUG might use Ponder, Portent or Preordain (or any other "P" card) an still fare well: it's not that hard to realize what to draw, what to keep on top and what to shuffle away. You want to have Stifle/counterspell plus Bolt in your hand when passing the turn so that you may interact with the opponent and his minions. Not exactly rocket science.
Also, it saddens and surprises me how poorly the fetches are designed considring the Eternal pool. Yeah, they are old cards, but they went out in 2001 or when, so the game was nearly a decade old affair. Someone should have been aware of the power of free shuffles. Or maybe not, I'm not exctly sure if this was visible back when Thawing Glaciers were a thing, or when etb:tapped Mirage fetches were used in those really really old Gro lists.
The drawback of losing one life is no drawback at all. Mirage etb and maybe even Shards (right?) basic-only fetchlands are balanced. (Ok, they're balanced on the edge of unplayability, but then again this is because of their more powerful cousins.) If the activation cost was a bit more strict... but yeah, it isn't, and thus there's zero thing to discuss.
Day 1 Undefeateds:
600 spells in 16 undefeated lists
275 blue spells
89 red spells
79 white spells
70 artifact spells
60.5 green spells (splitting multi-color spells in half)
26.5 black spells
10 most played spells in the undefeated lists
44 Brainstorm
44 Force of Will
33 Lightning Bolt
30 Treasure Cruise
28 Ponder
25 Swords to Plowshares
24 Stoneforge Mystic
20 Delver of Secrets
19 Daze
18 Young Pyromancer
Treasure Cruise knocked off the three most consistent lists in the meta, RUG Canadian, BUG Delver and UW Miracles and rotated the blue shell to UWR Stoneblade and UR Delver. Way to go WotC...
It's actually a joke at this point. What's going to do best at the next Legacy GP? Who knows but it will have Brainstorm and Force of Will.
One for the books, Meddling Mage himself would like to see Brainstorm laid to rest. I think regardless of personal opinion, this topic is going to continue to gain traction.
FoW is actually so much better now with cruise, but BS remain the worst offender here. Unban Survival could also free the format from some of the staleness. I'd play TnT survival with welder so much if it were to be unbanned. Also giff Vise, Recruiter and Bargain plz.Quote:
Originally Posted by FoolofaTook
The emergence of main list REB's/Pyroblasts in undefeated lists that have no internal synergies with cards in the lists (not Painter's Servant) should be a flashing red light for WotC at this point. Legacy is starting to do things that Vintage has done in self-defense against broken blue cards. That's a really bad sign.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gheizen64
Given that the ban cycle revolves around new set releases, they could EASILY test out a banning for a short period of time and then unban it if doesn't work out or is unpopular. I see no harm in 'testing' out a ban like Delver, Brainstorm, etc. and just see how it would change the format's landscape. If it's for the worse, they can go back. If it increases the format diversity and people are happy with it, then they can keep the change for a longer time -- and not necessarily indefinitely.
Obviously there is always going to be a vocal minority on the internet that will bemoan ANY change, or lack thereof. Point is, they could easily change the banned list after a short period of time.
Additionally, I think they really ought to elect a new committee to handle the B&R lists for eternal formats, as the DCI really doesn't demonstrate having the expertise to handle these formats that well. People have to practically LOBBY to get something changed, e.g. all the articles written by people like Mennendian among others that were made in an effort to alter the Vintage banned/restricted list. They do this with Commander iirc, and I think they should do the same thing with Legacy and Vintage.
/wishful thinking
Ignore all the data and main deck REBs, Brainstorm is fine because I like to cast it!
And to anyone saying, "Don't ban brainstorm because it will kill combo"... look around you.
Edit: and with 28 brainstorms in the top 8, if you took the over (27) you can collect your winnings.