My initial travel plans fell through. I'm about 50% to go at this point, depending on if one of my roommates gets off work.Quote:
Originally Posted by Colin
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My initial travel plans fell through. I'm about 50% to go at this point, depending on if one of my roommates gets off work.Quote:
Originally Posted by Colin
Sadly no :( Work and school and life are all getting in the way. Good luck to my fellow DNT compatriots. Represent us well and if you find a way to consistently crush 4c so it feels less 50-50 to slightly unfavorable, let me know haha.Quote:
Originally Posted by Colin
How is rest in peace not just a hoser to the deck (Czech Pile)? I mean, it turns off DRS, Snapcaster, and a mode of Kommand. It seems to me that with that kind of disruption it would be difficult to close out games due to having such a weak clock.
I get I'm either obviously completely wrong or am missing a significant piece of the puzzle, but that's how I keep seeing it. Maybe it's just a matter of drawing it?
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Czech Pile gains value through the GY but isn't entirely dependent upon it (a reason the deck is so strong is because of this resiliency). Strix still gets them cards + plays defense well. Snapcaster is still a flashable dude. Planeswalkers still function.Quote:
Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee
Hitting their extremely fragile manabase is where they will feel it the most since they are entirely dependent upon fetch/duals and cards with (color)(color) costs. Port also does a lot of damage early. Prelate, Thalia, Canonist, and [insert taxing effect] are powerful. Thalia 2.0 (should you run her) is big against them as well.
While Snapcaster and Deathrite are still cards with a RIP in play, neither of them are very good at all. RiP serves as a good hoser in that it makes a good chunk of their deck just bad. 2 mana 2/1s and 7 mana 5/5's arent exactly great. They run a manabase thats similar to Shardless'; in that while there are draws where you can easily beat them by aggressively attacking mana, a good number of their draws will contain enough mana to shrug off a wasteland or two. Canonist is a card that I sincerely do not like in the matchup. Being an artifact makes it a liability, but it certainly has its uses against cantrips and Snapcasters.Quote:
Originally Posted by Warden
A little update on my experiences with Cataclysm. Against Czech and Stoneblade and Miracles, it has won me almost every game that I've cast it. One game I didnt win involved them already having a true name and a jitte on board, another I was on no creatures and they drew out of it before I did. In each of these cases, Gideon would have lost just as well as Cataclysm. Flagstones of Trokair is not quite as free as I had hoped. Blood Moon and RIP both make it a little awkward, but being able to be ahead on mana post Cataclysm has won me many games.
Cataclysm has taken a spot in my build over Gideon. It obviously is a very different card, but here is why I like it better. Gideon's role for me was most often making a 2/2 every turn, and very occasionally attacking for 5 or dropping an emblem. He acted as an incremental advantage card, but one that I found my opponents were able to deal with more often than I liked. There is pretty much never a time when I would have a Gideon in hand and not play it if able. He did about the same thing whether you were ahead, behind or even. Cataclysm is a much different beast. I have had games where I had one in hand and didn't cast it. Its at its best when you're really behind, where it will sometimes just completely turn games around. I've had Czech sacrifice a board full of creatures, I've had it eat Jace's, I've had it just eat 4 lands and have that be enough. In these cases, I went from losing to even or only slightly behind. When you're ahead, there are times when you dont want to cast it. In my experience, this is most often when you have a board presence and they're already choked up on lands. Ive had games where Lands got stuck on 3 lands, where I valued two of my creatures more than two of their lands for example. When your boards are about on par with each other, which happens against Czech reasonably often after you trade bunch of resources, it can set you both back to one land. While this may seem even, decks like Czech and Miracles and Stoneblade need more mana to operate, and contain less overall. If you're both trying to dig out of one land, you'll often end up being able to draw the one land you need to get going while they need to dig for two. Games where you get to keep a Vial are also pretty lopsided. All in all, against the decks that I added it for its been one of my favorite cards to resolve.
Against decks that I didn't initially put in in the board for it has ended up being very potent as well. Against Elves, resolving a Cataclysm is one way to recoup your loses after they spam the board. Against Eldrazi and Goblins and Merfolk, I'm very happy having a card that can act as a Wrath of sorts as well. Against decks like MUD or Nic Fit or Big Mana Eldrazi or Cloudpost, the effect of reducing them to one land can be absolutely devastating. As a sideboard card, it has vastly over-performed against the weird decks that you face in big Legacy events. Gideon as a card felt significantly more narrow. I would bring it in against a lot of people, but it would quite often be underwelming.
As for the Cataclysm vs Armageddon debate, I find myself liking Cataclysm significantly more. While those games where I'm ahead on board and don't want to cast a Cataclysm happen, the games where you are behind and cast a Cataclysm happen more frequently. Blowing up all the lands is amazing when you're ahead and abysmal if you're behind. As such, as much as it pains me, I would not recommend Armageddon at this time. You're mostly bringing it in against removal heavy decks, so you would often find yourself with 0 lands and no threatening creatures in play.
I appreciate your thoughts and how descriptive and well thought out they were. It makes me wanna try cataclysm again, a card I have never loved and always felt was a strictly worse armageddon.Quote:
Originally Posted by WashableWater1
That being said I feel that with miracles as we knew it gone, I no longer feel the armageddon vs cataclysm argument is necessary. Cataclysm is better right now. The question is cataclysm vs Gideon. In theory you can run both, but I don't love 4 4 drops that come in the same matchup in my board. I just don't think they synergize well and the board is cramped as is. So is Cataclysm better than Gideon? I don't know, but I love me a good Gideon and I feel it comes down to play style. I wanna test it out before I make any more assumptions, but like I said, I have a prejudice against cataclysm so it'll be tough.
After some testing, I went back to this "old" Enevoldsen/Wescoe version (I found it online, maybe in december)
creatures:
4 Mother of Runes
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Flickerwisp
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Recruiter of the Guard
1 Mirran Crusader
1 Sanctum Prelate
1 Palace Jailer
1 Spirit of the Labyrinth
1 Serra Avenger
other spells:
4 Aether Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
lands (23):
10 Plains
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
3 Karakas
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Cavern of Souls
sideboard:
2 Containment Priest
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Faerie Macabre
2 Rest in Peace
2 Path to Exile
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Council's Judgment
1 Pithing Needle
I played it for months and I think it's well balanced. Maybe the mono serra avenger has not much sense and the palace jailer could be replaced by something else. For sure one of the best decklist I ever played of D&T.
I agree it's close to (about 3 cards from) ideal.
I think Jailer is bad now that miracles is a different deck than it used to be, and that I prefer a second Crusader. I dislike Serra Avenger, however I understand that most people see her as a pretty powerful card. I think most DnT players would agree that 2 of her is probably pretty close to optimal these days. Some may prefer 3, I do not. I like Spirit of the Labyrinth, but I think it's not so good at the moment. The only other thing I can see that some players may disagree with is the number of Cavern of Souls to play.
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I agree with Secretly.A.Bee. Last list I was on matched the one 2 posts up - Jailor, -Spirit of the Lab; + Mirran #2 + Serra #2.
I've caught a little bit of discussion around Cataclysm grabbing it's slot back from Gideon, Ally of Zendikar - not sure where I stand on that. Gideon seems a little more balanced, when it can come down it always does [something]. Cataclysm seems more swingy, same cost and can be a haymaker or be stranded as the opponent would hold superior board post 'Clysm. I might try Cataclysm back in those 2x 4cc "grindy long game" slots.
At this point with the meta being what it is, I'm pretty sure the Gideon/Cataclysm debate can go either way. Play to your strengths and board to your weaknesses.
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I just got back from playing in the main event with DnT. I can write more about it tomorrow.Quote:
Originally Posted by Colin
I made EE t8 with this:
(25)
4 Thalia
4 SfM
4 Mom
2 Recruiter of the Guard
2 Revoker
2 Magus of the Moon
3 Flickerwisp
1 Sanctum Prelate
1 Vryn Wingmare
1 Palace Jailer
1 Pia/Kiran
(11)
4 Vial
4 StP
Bskull/Sofi/Jitte
(24)
4 Wasteland
4 Port
3 Karkas
3 Plains
5 Fetchland
2 Plateau
3 Cavern
SB:
3 Path
2 RiP
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Leonin Relic Warder
1 Fiendslayer Paladin
1 Recruiter of the Guard
1 Pia/Kiran
1 Mirran Crusader
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Cunning Sparkmage
1 Containment Priest
My wins were Czech Pile, Miracles, Big Red, a Golgari midrange deck splashing Brainstorm/Leovold, Grixis Delver, Nic Fit, DnT. My only loss in the swiss was on camera to the Burn player who made the finals. Lost on camera in the t8 to UW Miracles. Stream is here: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/175282348?t=05h07m07s
I think I punted g3 by fetching Pia/Kiran instead of a Flickerwisp with Recruiter. I thought I had it in the bag before that, sitting on 2 Moms, Thalia, Revoker, Vial + a Prelate in hand, ready to stop a Terminus - I really didn't see Supreme Verdict coming and was a little shell-shocked. I played g1 really well, it's a shame that one wasn't on camera, it was very long and involved a lot of Porting and Pia/Kiran bouncing.
Pia/Kiran was really good all day. Fiendslayer Paladin was a little too slow vs Burn but was good vs Pile. I only won one game off Magus all day, but that was a game vs BUG where I was really far behind and wouldn't have won otherwise. Overall I liked my list a lot and I'm not sure I would change much in the near future. Post-board this build is very good at going toe-to-toe with the value decks.
I think Dusk/Dawn is a card that's well worth the consideration in the Gideon vs Cataclysm debate. I'm surprised it's been this overlooked. Being able to wipe power 3 or greater is a sweet spot that cards like Retribution of the Meek lacked: Leovold, Tarmogoyf, True-Name Nemesis, Gurmag Angler, basically every Eldrazi, etc. while keeping your own threats alive is great.
The aftermath effect (return all creatures power 2 or less from graveyard to hand) is an insane form of card advantage against decks that you know will deal boardwipes against you. So this is not a card you want against Miracles where they will exile or shift cards to the deck. In some situations, Cataclysm is better against Czech Pile if you need to get rid of a Jace or a lot of Baleful Strix/ shaman, though even here it can be rather situational. Otherwise, Dusk/Dawn seems absolutely more dominant as it has two relevant effects in one card that is good both when you're behind and when you're ahead. The card is also not bad against the mirror to gain footing against flyers (serra avenger, flickerwisp) and equipped creatures, but Gideon is more reliable here. I could see this against Grixis Delver for Delvers, Angler, Leovold, and True-name, though it's a shame it doesn't wipe tokens and shamans.
So yes tinker around and pick whichever one is best for your meta. I think this card has a lot of potential because it's a one-sided boardwipe which also replenish your creatures.
Also for anyone playing a red splash and want to test new cards, Quicksmith Rebel would be the card I would recommend. I've only tested him a couple times but so far, he's been phenomenal. He is significantly easier to cast than Pia and Kia while also being more dominant in a lot of match-ups. Even if he dies right away, you'll usually get some value out of him. If he stays alive, it's constant value against DnT, Czech Pile, Delver, Goblins, etc.
I wouldn't play him unless you also play Chalice of the Void; try to play 11 artifacts + 2-3 Phyrexian Revoker. That's about 25% of the deck and with 7 draws + Stoneforge, you'll usually have an artifact on the field. Chalice also gives extra protection to Rebel and is usually your best target as it actually becomes a formidable form of removal.
iatee - your third match against Miracles was heartbreaking to watch. I was rooting for you so hard (and from my understanding, so was the chat!).
Thanks Rob, that's really nice to hear.
More notes - I might have got the order of some of these matches wrong. I didn't win a die roll all day, but I also didn't play against any combo decks, it only probably mattered vs Burn and Grixis Delver.
Miracles (2-0)
- 3c Soothicles. Games weren't very close - he had Counterbalance both games which countered a total of 0 spells and I had Cavern + Pia/Kiran both games
SB: +1 Recruiter, +1 Pia/Kiran, +1 Crusader, +1 Ethersworn
-1 Jitte, -1 STP, -2 Magus
Czech Pile (2-1)
G1 - I have a Thalia/Wingmare/Prelate/Revoker on DRS start, and Kolaghan's Command + a million mana is really the only thing that can get him out of it, but he manages to get it, one turn after I get a Mom out.
G2 - Don't remember
G3 - He had LotV on 1 vs Fiendslayer, 2 RiP, Vial on 3. I draw into Pia/Kiran and pray he doesn't uptick Lili. He doesn't - with Vial on 3 he calculates that he's just gonna be throwing away a card. He casts Marsh Casualties instead to finally get Fiendslayer off the board - I get Pia/Kiran out next turn with Karakas and can't lose.
SB: +2 RiP, +1 Fiendslayer, +1 Pia/Kiran, +1 Crusader, +1 Recruiter
-2 StP, - 1 Flickerwisp, -1 Wingmare, -1 Sanctum Prelate, -1 Revoker
Big Red (2-0)
G1 - He had a Blood Moon hand g1 and I had tons of Mana Denial. Surprise block his Sin Prodder with Sfm + Vialed in Mom.
G2 - He had a hand filled with powerful 4 drops and Sudden Demise, but he couldn't cast any spells past Port and didn't draw into more lands
SB: +Relic-Warder, Recruiter, Pia/Kiran, Fiendslayer Paladin
- Cavern, 2 Magus, Jitte
Nic Fit (2-0)
G1 - He mulls to 5 g1 and I STP his Veteran Explorer and Wasteland him, cast MAgus.
G2 - He's ends up with something like 12 lands, but one of his only payoff cards is Tasigur which I have Revoker/Karakas for. I have Paths for the Siege Rhinos he casts and GSZs into. He has Deed, but I have Pia/Kiran + Karakas + Sfm + Batterskull, so I'm actually pretty fine with him using it, even a second time after Eternal Witness.
SB: +3 Path, Recruiter, Pia/Kiran, Crusader, Containment Priest
- 4 Thalia, -1 Wingmare, -1 Fetchland, -1 Prelate
If there had been a g3 I would have probably taken out Maguses and maybe a Wasteland. G1 I saw lots of nonbasics but after g2 it was clear he must have had something like 8-9 basics in his deck, it was on the high side even for Nic Fit.
Golgari/Leovold deck (2-1)
G1 - we both mull, but I have a Thalia/Wingmare start which really hampers him. Eventually he comes close to getting out of it with Dark Confidant and Deathrites, but just doesn't have time
G2 - At a certain point the board is: Dark Confidant + two DRS + Needle on Mom + attacking Grim Flayer vs 3 Moms, Recruiter, Revoker on DRS, Mirran Crusader. He attacks with a not-turned-on Grim Flayer - I know he has an Abrupt Decay in hand from Dark Confidant. I end up triple blocking with Moms - I could have thrown the Recruiter in too, but I figured I might draw a Flickerwisp. He ended up Decaying his own Dark Confidant to turn on Flayer - I didn't expect that, since it seemed like Decaying my Revoker was the best way for him to not die to my Mirran Crusader. The play he made was probably ultimately wrong, but I was also a little annoyed I didn't see it. Anyway, eventually at one life he casts Marsh Casualties to wipe the board, leaving himself with Leovold + Grim Flayer.
G3 - Keep a one land Vial hand with Mom, Mom, Revoker, Magus. I don't draw more lands. He has a lot of fetchlands and fetches nonbasics to play around Wasteland, which ends up being a pretty bad decision. T3 he taps out for Leovold. I StP it and Vial in Magus.
SB:
Mirran Crusader, Recruiter, 3 Paths (sucks cause he had basics, but he also had too many must answer threats like Dark Confidant and Grim Flayer), 2 RiP
-1 Flickerwisp -1 Sanctum Prelate -1 Wingmare -1 Revoker -1 Pia/Kiran (I saw Wastelands g1, but I decided to bring it back in anyway g3), -1 Jitte, - Fetchland I think?
Grixis Delver (2-0)
G1 - We get deck checked and start the round pretty late. G1 he Dazes my Vial and has a very early Angler, but is also really short on mana due to Thalia + Wasteland. Eventually I Recruiter into Prelate on 1 and outrace his Angler.
G2 - He forces my Vial with a TNN then plays a TNN. I get a Batterskull out which makes it hard for him to race. Eventually the board is Grim Lavamancer + Angler + TNN vs Thalia, Batterskull and I think I'm at something like 8-10 life. My hand is Sofi, RiP, Mom, Swords. I StP his Angler, then cast Mom to ensure that he doesn't Lavamancer my face. Next turn I cast RiP and he Lavamancers my Thalia - this actually ends up helping me because now I can cast Sofi and hook it up to Batterskull. He knew I had Sofi in hand, so this was a mistake, he really needed to hold me off from doing that until he found an answer to Batterskull.
+3 Path, +2 RiP, +Sparkmage, + Fiendslayer
-2 Revoker, -1 Palace Jailer, -Pia/Kiran, -1 Recruiter, -1 Flickerwisp, -1 Vryn Wingmare
Having seen 2 TNNs I might have boarded a Flickerwisp back in g3 over something.
Burn (0-2)
G1 - He's on the play with Goblin Guide, I have StP and a bunch of Moms and Stoneforges, which is actually a decent hand if he doesn't have anything. After StPing his Guide he plays another which I don't have an answer for (I end up drawing something like 5 lands off the Guides). My creatures eat all of his removal, and eventually I have a Prelate on 1 and Jitte in play vs a summoning sick Grim Lavamancer and tapped Goblin Guide. I attack with the Jitte'd Prelate, he blocks and Searing Blazes it for 1. I kill the Guide with Jitte but he has enough Burn to my face.
G2 - He has a Swiftspear start, I have a SfM that gets Jitte into a Recruiter for Fiendslayer, then cast Fiendslayer. I hit once with the Fiendslayer, but don't have a 4th land to cast Jitte + equip it - if I had I probably would have won, because I gain 6 life there, and next turn he would have played a Vortex, which I could have then Flickerwisp'd + gained 6 more life. Instead I just got Fireblasted out.
+3 Path, + Fiendslayer, +2 Canonist
-2 Revoker, -Pia/Kiran, -Palace Jailer, - Cavern, - Flickerwisp
DnT (2-0)
G1 - Vs a friend, Mike Derczo, who is one of the best DnT players around. We both know what's coming. G1 he mulls to Sfm, but I had Vial + SfM and more mana to get my Jitte online first. One of those "I have an Aether Vial and you don't" mirrors.
G2 - I probably made more small mistakes in this game than I did in the rest of the tournament combined, but I think he made one big one early that ended up mattering more. We both have the dream start with Vial into Sfm, but he fetched Sword of Light and Shadow instead of Jitte, and attempted to shut off my Jitte with Revoker. His problem was that I could let his Revoker with SoLas hit me something like 4 times and could basicallt not care since it's such a nonthreat on its own, especially early when the was nothing to recur in his graveyard. And because Jitte was shut off by Revoker, he couldn't hook a Jitte up to a SoLas'd creature to turn it into a real threat. That gave me a lot of time to set up my board while getting hit by what was effectively a Batterskull. I drew into Pia/Kiran which was also a good answer to SoLas (he had to double Plow it since I had Karakas.). I eventually fetched Cunning Sparkmage and got my Jitte online. The fact that I was at a relatively low life total and he had a SoLas sitting around still scared me and I made a bunch of weird mistakes because I was so focused on thinking of ways he could top-deck his way out of the situation. I also had a Thopter token sitting around that I completely forget about because I used a die instead of bringing tokens.
SB
+3 Path, + Recruiter, + Sparkmage, + Containment Priest (I like it on the draw), + Relic Warder, +Crusader
-4 Thalia, -2 Magus, -1 Wingmare, -1 Sanctum Prelate
Anyway, until now I had always been a little hesitant to keep Pia/Kiran in the mirror because RR vs Wasteland/Port deck where Vials are often shut down is hard - but I think the upside is probably worth it. I don't think I wanted two though.
R9 - Drew into t8 with TES. It was a clean cut.
T8 - UW Miracles (1-2)
G1 - This game prob lasted something like 45 minutes. Afterwards the judge said we'd both get slow play warnings if we kept it up, but I don't think either of us was actually playing particularly slow at all, the game just hinged on me Porting him and getting him to waste the mana during Upkeep/Draw, so we both had to make some pretty nuanced decisions. He Unexpectedly Absents my early Vial and then Forces it - but I have so much mana that I can still do things like cast Recruiter through Cavern and Double port. Eventually I fetch Pia/Kiran and keep Karakas up, and he just can't beat that.
G2 - Pretty boring game thanks to Back to Basics. That card is pretty punishing for this deck.
G3 - Have pretty much the perfect opening hand with Vial+Port into Thalia+Mom into Revoker, sitting on a Prelate, I keep waiting for him to Terminus - I actually really want him to, because then Prelate can add to my clock. Instead he casts Back to Basics, which shuts off the Port, then Supreme Verdicts. I still Sanctum Prelate after that, now on 1, and have a Recruiter, which I use to get a Pia/Kiran, attempting to find a way to finish him off ASAP. This was a mistake, and Flickerwisp chains probably would have done it, though if he had enough removal he could still possibly deal with them.
After he takes over the game - he's at one life, I have a Vial on 4 and he's Jace fatesealing me with a Gideon in play - he bottoms something and I draw another Pia/Kiran with Vial on 4, which means if he doesn't have an instant speed Terminus or Snapcaster + Stp, I probably actually stole a game he had locked up. Unfortunately he had Snapcaster + Brainstorm / Terminus.
SB:
+Recruiter, +Pia/Kiran, +2 Ethersworn
- Plains, StP, -2 Magus
After seeing Back to Basics I switched Plains to Plateau and switched an Ethersworn for Relic-Warder.
We didn't get decklists, and it would have benefited me enormously, because I could have seen Back to Basics + Supreme Verdict coming, and that his manabase was so clean that Wasteland was close to a dead card. I probably would have sided -2 Wasteland, -2 Magus.
How do you respond to allegations that you've betrayed the people who rooted for you in top 11? What about Frank?
I thought about playing a Frank in the board actually. Now that everyone thinks it's bad, it's probably good.
Do you think this game was won because your opponent wasn't running Legacy staple Rite of Flame?Quote:
Originally Posted by iatee
My opponent was a terrible player, so I'm not sure it would have mattered.
Maybe you have your decks turned around, or perhaps I'm just missing sarcasm, but big red is a mono-red chalice stompy list. I can't imagine Rite of Flame helping.Quote:
Originally Posted by CptHaddock
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