All B/R update speculation.

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Originally Posted by testing32

Ignore all the data and main deck REBs, Brainstorm is fine because I like to cast it!

And to anyone saying, "Don't ban brainstorm because it will kill combo"... look around you.

Edit: and with 28 brainstorms in the top 8, if you took the over (27) you can collect your winnings.

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Storm, UR Delver, Jeskai stoneblade, MUD, Infect, Landstill, and 2 Miracles. Yeah, that's super unhealthy, they all do the same....thing.....right?

Super dooper healthy! I mean it's only 28 brainstorms. That's not even a perfect shutout.

Grouping Storm, Delver, and Miracles is always going to be wrong.

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Originally Posted by HSCK

Grouping Storm, Delver, and Miracles is always going to be wrong.

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WotC disagrees with you. Do I need to dig up the quote from when they banned mental misstep again?

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Originally Posted by testing32

WotC disagrees with you. Do I need to dig up the quote from when they banned mental misstep again?

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He'll just bring up how there are 4 more decks this time than last time. Because 60 decks all playing brainstorm is healthier than 56.

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Originally Posted by menace13

He'll just bring up how there are 4 more decks this time than last time. Because 60 decks all playing brainstorm is healthier than 56.

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I'll just quote the last three B/R Announcements actually.

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Originally Posted by HSCK

I'll just quote the last three B/R Announcements actually.

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Go ahead, I'll be quoting the next B/R announcement for you.

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Originally Posted by HSCK

I'll just quote the last three B/R Announcements actually.

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I'll just quote Lejay actually.

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Originally Posted by Lejay

I don't think wizards will ban brainstorm nor fetches because players like them a lot and they are a commercial company, not a sport federation.

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Top 16

At this point, this shit is getting comical:

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Originally Posted by Barook

My vote goes to 7/8 Brainstorm decks in the Top 8, and 13-14 BS decks in the Top 16, with Elves or random anti-blue decks taking the rest of the slots.

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14 Brainstorm decks
1 Elves
1 MUD (Anti-BS strategy with Chalice and Trinisphere)

Such diverse. Much Brainstorm. Wow.

4 of the Top 8 decks also run MD REBs/Pyros. This is not healthy.

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Originally Posted by Barook

Top 16

At this point, this shit is getting comical:


14 Brainstorm decks
1 Elves
1 MUD (Anti-BS strategy with Chalice and Trinisphere)

Such diverse. Much Brainstorm. Wow.

4 of the Top 8 decks also run MD REBs/Pyros. This is not healthy.

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WotC will probably just ban Treasure Cruise or Dig Through Time instead for 'warping the metagame'. But yes, the penetration of the Top 16 of the GP is extremely undiverse, with a core of BS, Force, Ponder, GProbe featuring in most decks to varying numbers (with the sole exception of BS, which is a 4-of in any deckt hat plays it.)

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Originally Posted by Darkenslight

WotC will probably just ban Treasure Cruise or Dig Through Time instead for 'warping the metagame'. But yes, the penetration of the Top 16 of the GP is extremely undiverse, with a core of BS, Force, Ponder, GProbe featuring in most decks to varying numbers (with the sole exception of BS, which is a 4-of in any deckt hat plays it.)

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Except that isn't going to solve the problem that the next GP Top 16 has a high chance of looking the same.

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Originally Posted by Barook

Top 16

At this point, this shit is getting comical:


14 Brainstorm decks
1 Elves
1 MUD (Anti-BS strategy with Chalice and Trinisphere)

Such diverse. Much Brainstorm. Wow.

4 of the Top 8 decks also run MD REBs/Pyros. This is not healthy.

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But they're DIFFERENT decks. Infect is nothing like Miracles. Grouping them together is like grouping Elves and Jund together as "DRS decks"

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Originally Posted by AznSeal

But they're DIFFERENT decks. Infect is nothing like Miracles. Grouping them together is like grouping Elves and Jund together as "DRS decks"

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This is something Barook just doesn't seem to understand for some reason. With this top8 whining about lack of diversity is just plain retarded.

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Originally Posted by Hopo

This is something Barook just doesn't seem to understand for some reason. With this top8 whining about lack of diversity is just plain retarded.

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The Mental Misstep meta was also "diverse". Hell, the Top 8 of GP Flash was "diverse". Something like the Standard Stoneblade meta where it only contains 2 decks in the top 32 with 100% Jace isn't going to happen. That doesn't mean that it's the sign of a healthy format.

Brainstorm does significantly outperform anything else. Just look at the Day 2 data. ~71% Brainstorm decks (give or take a few %) and the Top 16 is another 87.5% Brainstorm decks.

Edit: Typo

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Originally Posted by Darkenslight

WotC will probably just ban Treasure Cruise or Dig Through Time instead for 'warping the metagame'. But yes, the penetration of the Top 16 of the GP is extremely undiverse, with a core of BS, Force, Ponder, GProbe featuring in most decks to varying numbers (with the sole exception of BS, which is a 4-of in any deckt hat plays it.)

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Or nothing, because there isn't a problem.

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Originally Posted by wcm8

Given that the ban cycle revolves around new set releases, they could EASILY test out a banning for a short period of time and then unban it if doesn't work out or is unpopular. I see no harm in 'testing' out a ban like Delver, Brainstorm, etc. and just see how it would change the format's landscape. If it's for the worse, they can go back. If it increases the format diversity and people are happy with it, then they can keep the change for a longer time -- and not necessarily indefinitely.

Obviously there is always going to be a vocal minority on the internet that will bemoan ANY change, or lack thereof. Point is, they could easily change the banned list after a short period of time.

Additionally, I think they really ought to elect a new committee to handle the B&R lists for eternal formats, as the DCI really doesn't demonstrate having the expertise to handle these formats that well. People have to practically LOBBY to get something changed, e.g. all the articles written by people like Mennendian among others that were made in an effort to alter the Vintage banned/restricted list. They do this with Commander iirc, and I think they should do the same thing with Legacy and Vintage.

/wishful thinking

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My only issue with this is that to do any better at managing the B&R lists for Vintage and Legacy than the DCI is currently doing would require the people on the committee to be active players of the formats in question and so they'd not only have skin in the game, they wouldn't be able to act in the best interest of WotC/Hasbro/the secondary market without people seeing conspiracies more places than they do now. I wish they'd be a little less cautious when it comes to unbannings (looking at you, SotF, Earthcraft) , but what they're doing is probably better than anything we as a community could do.

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Originally Posted by btm10

My only issue with this is that to do any better at managing the B&R lists for Vintage and Legacy than the DCI is currently doing would require the people on the committee to be active players of the formats in question and so they'd not only have skin in the game, they wouldn't be able to act in the best interest of WotC/Hasbro/the secondary market without people seeing conspiracies more places than they do now. I wish they'd be a little less cautious when it comes to unbannings (looking at you, SotF, Earthcraft) , but what they're doing is probably better than anything we as a community could do.

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Thing is that EDH is a casual format. Sure, Wizards would love to take over the management of its banned list to force their vision on Commander, but it's hard to actually enforce in a non-sanctioned format where people can give two shits about it and make their own house rules. And taking away the format management from the players wouldn't go too well with the playerbase, I guess.

There's no such thing as a "Brainstorm Deck."

Might as well complain about all the "Tropical Island Decks."

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Originally Posted by btm10

Or nothing, because there isn't a problem.

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I strongly disagree, although it's easy to miss the issue; there's a core of 16 cards that seems to improve your chances of going 7-2 or better on Day 1 by a considerable percentage, even accounting for a bias due to the number of decks playing Brainstorm.

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Originally Posted by btm10

My only issue with this is that to do any better at managing the B&R lists for Vintage and Legacy than the DCI is currently doing would require the people on the committee to be active players of the formats in question and so they'd not only have skin in the game, they wouldn't be able to act in the best interest of WotC/Hasbro/the secondary market without people seeing conspiracies more places than they do now. I wish they'd be a little less cautious when it comes to unbannings (looking at you, SotF, Earthcraft) , but what they're doing is probably better than anything we as a community could do.

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Again, I disagree, although once again, it's easy to miss the issue. Given the multiple times reasoning for bannings (meta-warping, 'un-fun'), Brainstorm is far more penetrative than any other card that has been banned; that includes Skullclamp, which had an incredible penetration at the GPs and PT that got it banned in all of the formats. Mental Misstep was one that warped the meta to the point that it was 'play MM or go home'). Brainstorm is the single largest remover of variance, which comes into play in tournaments with lots of rounds. Having an above 70% penetration conistently into Top 8s in large tournaments is arguably the very definition of meta-warping.

Just as a hypothetical question: how many cards do "blue" decks have to share before there will be admittance of an issue?

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Originally Posted by AznSeal

But they're DIFFERENT decks. Infect is nothing like Miracles. Grouping them together is like grouping Elves and Jund together as "DRS decks"

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What would WotC do if 14 of the top 16 lists all had 4 DRS?

Would it matter what the strategies of the lists were?