Yeah, I am pretty sure they already said that last announcement...Quote:
Originally Posted by Dice_Box
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Yeah, I am pretty sure they already said that last announcement...Quote:
Originally Posted by Dice_Box
I think bargain will be the next card unbanned in legacy once they realize most of the time Griselchimp is just better outside of maybe a bargain storm deck
They only referred to Vintage, but I guess the same is true for Legacy. So no changes.Quote:
Originally Posted by H
We’re aware of the proximity of the next B&R window to Eternal Weekend, which is why we’ve chosen to make necessary Vintage changes in this window. We don’t currently anticipate more changes to Vintage with the next B&R window, but in the event that they are needed we’ll have a solution for communicating changes in a way that respects the preparation of Eternal Weekend players.
Eh, I'm old, so I forgot it was specially directed toward Vintage. I'd think the same idea applies to Legacy though.Quote:
Originally Posted by sco0ter
https://magic.wizards.com/en/article...nt-2017-10-17?
Nothing happened
not a word about legacy........ a little sad.
Earthcraft, Mind Twist, and Goblin Recruiter remain the safest unbans of any format. I just guess they don't have enough fans to generate the attention they would need.
I thought this was crazy initially, but after thinking about it, I think it could be testable...though it's most comparable to Ad Nauseam in storm, and honestly I think you would win the game near every time if it resolved, where Ad Nauseam has a much more steep cost; it's also a lot harder to play Ad Naus when you don't already have some mana sources available since you can get unlucky with it, where with Bargain you can likely just get to 6 mana, drop it, and draw into Petals/Rituals more reliably since you can draw way more cards. It might still be too good, but this is just theory, of course.Quote:
Originally Posted by Megadeus
Though I also agree that the only place for Bargain would really be storm, considering Grizzy is stupid good not only for drawing cards but also as a wincon and gaining that life back.
I have no interest in a format where NicFit is ramping into Bargain. :tongue:
Ad Nauseum with correct deck construction will draw more cards than bargain on average. The Average CMC of TES is less than 1 so you are netting more cards:life ratio. Whereas Bargain you are paying 1 life for those extra lands/petal/led.Quote:
Originally Posted by niv
I think Bargain would slot into the ANT shell displacing Ad Nauseum due to the higher CMC average. But in the TES shell Ad Nauseum is much stronger than bargain.
EDIT: Another point is that Ad Nauseum skirts Leovold effects, whereas bargain is soft.
Also Ad Naus being instant allows you to bait eot or eot resolve it and then immediately unta p. Now don't get me wrong, I think bargain would be good in the format. Also getting to run 4 bargain in storm makes it super threat heavy and even let's you run force of will. I just don't think it would actually be format breaking.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tittliewinks22
I still like that they acknowledged that they made mistakes in bannings in the runup to PT and EW. Because that makes sense.Quote:
Originally Posted by Morden
So long as nothing gets banned on Wednesday again. :D
They mentioned they're looking at unbanning something from Modern. Any guesses on what? It looks like it'll happen in February, so we've got a little bit of time.
Looking at the list, Green Sun's Zenith and Jace, the Mind Sculptor look like the most likely options. Mayyyybe Stoneforge Mystic or Birthing Pod?
My reasoning on GSZ and Pod is that with CoCo and Chord competing with them they aren't as great as they used to be. For Jace and SfM it's that the format wouldn't be that phased by a Caw-Blade style deck at this point, and there are actually quite a few answers to planeswalkers now.
I like your idea, given that there is grizeldaddy in the format and seems much much more powerfull...Quote:
Originally Posted by Megadeus
What do you think about frantic search and miatycal tutor if thwy come off the list?
Quote:
Originally Posted by morgan_coke
Playing modern the only card that seems safe to me is SfM. I always forget about it but Blood Braid Elf as well. There's a possibility Jace might be, but I'm not brave enough to say so.
I don't see BBE making it off the list, it's a huge power boost to Jund, which is already a Tier 1 deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by simdude
@ Modern, it will be Bloodbraid elf, I don't see them having enough balls to do anything else.
Traditional Jund is definitely *not* a tier 1 strategy anymore. Death's Shadow is the only jund-colored deck that matters and it plays much lower to the ground than traditional Jund. BBE might change that, and put it back into contention, but ATM jund isn't even on most Modern players radar screen. Plus, Grixis Death's Shadow is a better deck than Jund Death's Shadow. Not saying people don't play jund, but it sure as hell isn't tier 1. I personally would love BBE back in the format, it would allow for some great mid-range agro options that could pressure the current format.Quote:
Originally Posted by morgan_coke
http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=17018&f=MO
Stoneforge Mystic most likely won't get unbanned, not with Batterskull in the format. All of the Swords are absurdly powerful with Mystic, so even the lack of Jitte barely contains Mystic, ie makes it safe to unban. I don't like it for the format, honestly. I could be used in Thopter/Sword, which could put that deck on the map in a big way. Maybe it does nothing, but I think it's too good IMHO.
Jace on the other hand seems to be marginally ok. So many decks in Modern are based on a critical mass of cards that the broad power approach of Jace seems like it might be ok. He could also put UWx midrange/control variants straight into tier 1, but I would like to see it.
For legacy I want to live the dream with Mind Twist. See what I did there?
Frantic Search is a good card, but I don't think it would change much. It's not even good in Reanimator, and in High Tide it wouldn't matter because high tide would still be shit. Mystical I'm fine with being banned. But that's to me mostly because I feel like show and tell would just adopt it and I hate show and tell.Quote:
Originally Posted by Problem4tic
Jund hasn't been Tier 1 in Modern for quite some time. Heck, the deck is barely Tier 2 at this point.Quote:
Originally Posted by morgan_coke
What's Modern?
Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk
A burgeoning format that provides magical opportunities in communities where Legacy is a rarity, at the least allowing for powerful older cards. I believe an obligatory 'fuck standard' is appropriate here. How have you been jandax?Quote:
Originally Posted by jandax
How much do people think Eternal Weekend will inform wotc about future unbannings/bannings for Legacy? Do you think wotc treats it with more weight than the standardized data that gets shared (ie mtgtop8.com etc.)?
This thread is (according to its title) for speculation; not baseless wishing and ranting.Quote:
Originally Posted by tescrin
There is a difference between saying "IMO card x is too powerful and therefore could/should being baned" vs whining that "IMO card x is not very much fun so WotC please ban it".
Note that one of these statements can lead to reasonable conversation while the other is a total dead end.
I think the mayor difference is that one party is usually beating around the bush with shallow arguments rather than plain stating "I dislike what the card does for personal reasons".Quote:
Originally Posted by Crimhead
In my opinion, thats the crucial point where discussions get derailed. It's a chore to keep refering to performance & metagame data if these are getting trashed by small-sample-size anecdotes of local metas and strong opinions
Why does there always have to be something on the chopping block, though? Everytime something does get banned, people immediately jump on to the next thing and whine for a ban. If the next best thing were to keep getting banned, we'd just end up with Modern. Legacy is the place to play with busted cards, without being quite as expensive or busted as Vintage.
Honestly, I feel like the format is in a perfect place right now, and it has continued to be diverse and has continuosly been rotating since Top got banned. 4c midrange goodstuff piles may be what is popular right now, but those decks have some big weaknesses. Once people adjust, we'll see the format rotate yet again.
Wait a minute... I brought logic into this thread. My bad, sorry guys, I'll see my way out now. Also, #bangoblinlackey
How dare you!Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanni
:laugh:
<Looks at the poll at the top of the thread, sees Tarmogoyf as the second leading candidate for banning.>
:rolleyes:
<Remembers why it's a waste of time to post in this thread.>
To the question, why does something always have to be on the block, that question is rather easy to answer. Humans are programmed to know and notice negatives. Mostly because negatives are dangerous.
My psychology professor summed it up like this:
If I tell you that we have 3 months worth of food in the house you will pay me little attention. It's not an issue you need to solve. If I tell you there is 3 days worth of food your viewpoint shifts. Now you have an issue you have to fix. One is not a threat, the other is.
When it comes to unbanning cards, well they aren't impacting us now, they are the 3 months. But cards we see every week are things we notice and things we attach negative feelings upon. "Shit, lost to that unfair card again". That's the 3 days.
There were times when Tarmogoyf was opressive. Ban worthy at the time? Probabbly not, but still, it was highly opressive. Only thing that at the time could effectively remove Tarmogoyf were swords, smother, some niche decks played snuff out and that was it from the removal aspect. So before you all start loling at Tarmo, you should know that not many things could kill him at the time...
Now I'll see my self out of this topic before I get cancer :wink: :tongue:
When Tarmogoyf was released, every other deck splashed green just so it could have Goyf beatdown as a backup strategy. I was surprised to see how much the power level of creatures has risen since then...Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Miagi
I know, I lived through the era of merfolk and goblins splashing for him :laugh:Quote:
Originally Posted by iOWN
They even did that in Standard where Goyf otherwise wasn't a big player. Fish+Goyf+Chameleon Colossus = "Full Fat Merfolk". :laugh:Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Miagi
Before ban Tarmogoyf, it was ban Goblin Lackey. I mean seriously, the ban Lackey crowd was as large and as vocal as the ban Brainstorm crew is these days.
One reason people pushed for banning Tarmogoyf was that future creatures would have to be incredibly broken to compete with him, and this would eventually destroy the format.
Can't really argue with that part of it right now.
Also, I would say Brainstorm is different from say, Lackey, in that Lackey went in only one deck. Brainstorm is in 60%+ of the format.
Tarmogoyf was the Deathrite Shaman of its time:Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Miagi
In dozens of decks with various strategies, used because he did what he does better than the rest and easy to splash for in addition.
Being best-in-slot was never a reason to ban anything. It it was, we would constantly (and i quote myself) "chop the hydras head", waiting until the next best-in-slot establishes and then repeat.
ETERNAL WEEKEND
Legacy Top 8:
6/8 decks had 4x DRS
5/8 decks had 4x Delver
4/8 decks had 4x Probe
5/8 decks played Hymn/Therapy + FoW
5/8 decks played Daze + FoW
6/8 decks played Wasteland
Do we have a problem with actual diversity atm?
In some ways, yes. I think this current streamlining of Legacy can be largely traced back to the banning of Sensei's Divining Top and the loss of UWr Miracles as a Tier 1 strategy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
There's plenty of diversity in Legacy in terms of available options, but 11 rounds of Swiss are going to favor the kind of decks that are most consistent round after round. And that's inevitably going to be some form of Blue-based aggro-control. In a shorter tournament, Tier 2 strategies have a much better chance of spiking the event despite their lack of 4x Brainstorm/Ponder/FoW/DRS/[etc.].
UWx Stoneblade decks are *okay*, but not really an adequate replacement for Miracles. DRS-based Blue decks are simply better at playing the aggro-control role. Of course you can still play a form of UWr Miracles without Top, but it's nowhere near as powerful as it once was.
I totally understand the justification for banning SDT, but perhaps it was the wrong card to hit. Maybe Terminus would have been the better choice? Or perhaps Counterbalance? As oppressive as Miracles was, the format was in a pretty good revolving state in terms of which decks were preying on each other. I think bringing back SDT and banning another component of Miracles in its place could help restore more balance and variety to the format.
Been saying this for awhile. There's plenty of decks with different names, but in reality it's just the cantrips plus deathrite with different kill conditions.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
Why not mention the cantrips as well?Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
7/8 decks had 4x Brainstorm
6/8 decks had 4x Ponder (7/8 if you count 3+ Ponder)
There definitely is a problem with diversity.
You don't cure cancer with AIDS. SDT was the correct ban, or did you forget its 3 years of dominance?Quote:
Originally Posted by wcm8
The format's problem is that doesn't ban enough when it's necessary. We wouldn't have hundreds of pages in the B&R thread discussing Brainstorm if R&D did its fucking job and banned the quality cantrips like they did in Vintage and Modern. For the love of God, it took a sign before WotC's headquarter for R&D to get their heads out of their asses.
Isn’t it just cantrips+anything at this point?Quote:
Originally Posted by Megadeus
The cantrip shell has been proven to be the “best” thing you can be playing in legacy and has been for some time now. SDT was the correct ban because it made the cantrip shell oppressive to the point of not being fun; mostly the counterbalance interaction was invalidating complete sections of the format.
They just need to print a few more “anti cantrip” and “anti blue” cards that do not fit in a blue shell and are costed aggressively enough to see play.
I am sure that there are enough threads around the internet that are filled with hypothetical threads on what cards could see print. I personally think that lowering the power of the blue “shell” would be better than raising the power of other decks.
On another note... we need a better sideboard card to hate on blue/cantrips. There is nothing anyone can do to hate against a cantrip deck sans Choke. Pretty much every other archetype has cards that can be played in a sideboard to shut it down and ever since blue decks lost threshold creatures, they have pretty much never had to worry about the opposing sideboard.
To me it doesn't seem like the problem is "cantrips + DRS" or "cantrips + anything for that matter", the deck that dominated this tournament is "cantrips + most efficient creatures + best general disruption/protection". Has that ever not been the most consistent strategy in the history of Legacy?