All I know is after EW, Sylvan Library is OP. Needs banned! :cool:
Printable View
All I know is after EW, Sylvan Library is OP. Needs banned! :cool:
Pretty crazy that the top 3 decks at EW didn't run basic lands, and there was only one deck in the top 8 that ran any basics at all.
Not interested in seeing bans, but that's pretty nuts.
Someone accidently set off PSully on the Banning of DRS.
https://go.twitch.tv/videos/184065868?t=22h42m10s
He's amazing, still.
This one particular format does not showcase the variety of Legacy very well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
But weren't you just complaining about small-sample-size anecdotes being pushed to obscure the data? 5/8 Delver decks is the exception, not the norm.
Decks with both Brainstorm and Deathrite do well. Decks with just Brainstorm but no Deathrite also do well. Decks with Deathrite but no Brainstorm? Not so well aside from some exceptions like Elves, but they mostly care about it's elf tag, if it was a human shaman they probably wouldn't even play it. Deathrite Shaman isn't the problem with blue decks being good and if it was banned they'd still be the best thing to do and we'd just be going onto topics like "ban delver of secrets, best creature in legacy, look 5/8 delver in this top8."
Do you need another Chalice of the Void? Trinisphere and Amethist are not enough? :laugh:Quote:
Originally Posted by lavafrogg
All this talk about banning blue cards, but there was an Eldrazi deck in top8 as well. There is a clear racist bias against blue mages and that's the big issue in this format that doesn't get talked anywhere enough.
Because i refuse to beat a dead horse, also:Quote:
Originally Posted by Barook
It was for like a decade already, but the new development looks like that the decks build around BS+Ponder+Fetches are streamlining too. Where are all the blue combo and control decks suddenly? All mauled by DRS and discard?Quote:
Originally Posted by lavafrogg
Of course this is just an anecdote, yet not one too far off the current metagame dataQuote:
Originally Posted by Crimhead
Is that so?Quote:
Originally Posted by Rascalyote
Show/Tell and Miracles etc are performing much better than Jund and Maverick etc :^)Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
Racist? So blue is 'persecuted' and every other color is 'priveledged'?Quote:
Originally Posted by Gheizen64
Insert Willy Wonka sarcasm meme.
Can't we all just agree that Chalice is obviously the real issue here and needs to be banned immediately?
I wonder if anything will change in January. If something is going to happen, that's the date. It has to be to give run up to the Pro Tour that will contain Legacy. Still can't believe I am writing those words and not in jest.
There's something to be said about the significant deckbuilding constraints that come with cantrip hate not named Leovold, but we've been over this before.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hrothgar
Chalice and Thorn require a specific manabase and curve
Thalia, Chains, and Spirit of the Labyrinth sabotage your own filtering
Choke and Blood Moon cost three god damn mana and need to be slammed ASAP to do anything
Really it's just easier and more efficient to load up on 1cmc blue cards yourself. It's an odd case where available hate is just worse that the cards they "beat."
But that's the point!Quote:
Originally Posted by Watersaw
You can't try and hate on cantrips without making it symmetrical or else 4x Brainstorm decks become 4x Brainstorm & 4x whatever card you're thinking of.
That's the problem with Leo, people play him and the number of Brainstorms hasn't gone down. So what are you solving?
If a solution is indeed necessary to punish greedy manabases with RainbowXerox.dec, I don't think banning cards is the right one. I'd vote for some good old fashioned efficient land destruction. Wizards has treaded on eggshells for too long with land destruction.
#MakeLDGreatAgain
But I also don't think a solution is necessary at this point. Let the damned format evolve. If something oppressive emerges, then act.
Jup. What WotC needs to evade is printing hate which goes along Brainstorm/PonderQuote:
Originally Posted by PirateKing
Or stop printing pushed cards like DRS, Mentor, Griselbrand, Cruise/Dig etc. Cantrips are only as good as the cards they find, if threats are less efficient then turbo xerox is easier to punish. Probably a bit late for that though, the last few years have squeezed out some gems.
I agree with this, but it gets to the question of what is the acceptable power level for such a deck, and how many bans are you willing to stomach to preserve it. See Workshop in Vintage.Quote:
Originally Posted by Whitefaces
Here are the cards that I think need to go in order to ratchet down Xerox to the level I think people envision:
Leovold
Baleful Strix
Gurmag Angler
True-Name Nemesis
Snapcaster Mage
Deathrite Shaman
Griselbrand
Terminus
Delver of Secrets
Gitaxian Probe
(Possibly) Mentor/Pyromancer
Is that OK? I mean, I would be excited to try out this format. But that's a lot to swallow. You would definitely incentivize playing non-blue fair decks again, and Stoneforge Mystic/Tarmogoyf would once again be the go-to off-color threats. Those cards have received some pretty big nerfs in K-Command and Fatal Push.
This list may be one or two cards too many but the actual issue is so nebulous that it's hard to know where to stop. We don't want what? A good midrange deck? A good blue midrange deck? A good tempo deck? We just want Lackey/Mongoose to be good again? How good is too good?
Yeah, I got to the same conclusion after thinking about it a bit more. It's way too extreme to ever happen, but I think the format would be a lot more enjoyable without a lot of those cards.
The main ones in my opinion are Deathrite and Delver. Griselbrand as well I guess in terms of making a resolved Show and Tell GG 90% of the time. The other two one drops give the turbo xerox decks too efficient of threats for the low cost. Delver being a 1 mana 3/2 with evasion is nuts when thresh of old at least took a few turns to make their mongoose a 3/3. Deathrite simply because it's a 1 mana must answer threat that can be cast in a color that shouldn't have ever had a mana dork
Personally, I don't find Chalice to be that big of an issue. Realistically, everyone is responsible for their own deck's contents, and crying that someone locked out 60-80% of your deck with one card is akin to threatening the schoolyard bully. You're gonna get wrecked. There really isn't a whole lot you can bitch about if you don't take steps to ensure it doesn't become that way in the first place, or if it does materialize, that you have some way of dealing with it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dice_Box
If it were up to me, I'd ban seriously unfair things. Things that change the way the game is played for you, but not your opponent. Things like Omniscience. That shit is just plain dumb. Oh, I can play everything in my hand for free with no drawbacks.....yeah.....ban THAT garbage.
Brainstorm, ehhhh.....the point could be argued that it's ban-worthy, but I don't have the energy to do so. Personally, I don't much care to register for a tournament only to watch 6-10 people sit across from me and cycle their decks faster than the toilet paper rolls at Chipotle. But I digress, Brainstorm by itself is not degenerate enough to ban.
Deathrite Shaman.....the 1-drop planeswalker. THE preeminent form of maindeckable graveyard hate in Legacy. The manadork supreme. The alt-wincon everyone has. The single most splashable asshat since Goyf. And he's twice as splashable as Goyf is.
Meh, not bannable. He isn't warping the format, he's not causing people to flip tables, and he hasn't sent Dredge running to the hills. Once a graveyard hate card gets printed that says:
:0:
Flash, hexproof, indestructible
Etb~Exile all graveyards
As long as this is in play, blah blah blah blah
You see how unlikely this shit is. They can't print enough graveyard hate because perfect hate will never be achieved.
My vote is either Probe or Omni. Either one could go. Probe has what I call Mental Misstep Syndrome. It's popping up in decks it doesn't belong in, just because reasons. Like seeing Surgical on the board for Miracles, or Gut Shot for Death and Taxes. It perpetuates the lazy-ass "Oh, it's free, why not run it" mentality. And that's exactly what got Misstep banned.
Sent from my SCH-I605 using Tapatalk
Part of the reason why Deathrite is so good right now, is because there is little incentive to be running Graveyard hate when you could be exploiting your own Graveyard for advantage too.
Once they print some "Thalia-equivalent" Rest in Peace version, Deathrite will fall in the same way that 'Goyf is no longer the "best" creature in Legacy.
Honestly, if Deathrite isn't the correct power-level for Legacy, then I think Legacy is a shit-hole.
Yes, I think we all can agree that legacy will be better when they print Rest in Peace bear. Can we get a petition going?
/signedQuote:
Originally Posted by iatee
I'll sign if they make it mono-black
It DESERVES to be mono-black.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ace/Homebrew
Sent from my SCH-I605 using Tapatalk
As long as it's some creepy looking Yixlid whatever-the-hell they are.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ace/Homebrew
#ReturnToYixlid
#IsThatEvenAPlace
#WhoCares
#BDSMMTG
#MakeMagicGreatAgain
http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers...5381&type=cardQuote:
Originally Posted by H
That's the closest thing right now.
There's also the Dryad guy.
Dryad Militant
From reddit: " Brainstorm is not 'too strong', people just stopped trying to fight it (to the degree that when people do the brainstorm crowd gets bent out of shape and butthurt. Chalice is why you still have your stupid toys. Stop bitching already)."
That top8 was 62.5% Delver decks. That is miles off the current metagame data.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
http://mtgtop8.com/format?f=LE&meta=72
Terminus? How in the world can you justify a ban that only hits Miracles?Quote:
Originally Posted by maharis
I mean brainstorm probably is too strong, but I agree that I'm just done fighting it. I'm all in on blue cards now personally because I'm tired of losing to worse players with better cards.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zombie
I think your over thinking it. Nothing you do outside of going nuclear on the format will solve Xerox. Perhaps that is a goal but I don't think it's a worthy one. Too much damage would be wrought upon the format for not a large amount of gains. The moment we look at taking out Gurmag in Legacy is the moment we have overreached.Quote:
Originally Posted by maharis
There are individual cards from Xerox that I do believe should take a hit, but the cards that surround them like Angler, Pyromancer, Mentor or Strix I feel are not worthy of debate. It's not that these are not strong effects, it's just that these effects are structurally dependent on more egregious offenders.
Even so, I think if you took out Brainstorm and left the rest of Xerox in tack, we would be fine. Sure, Mentor will still fuck your day sometimes, but that's Legacy. But since Brainstorm is unlikely to see a ban, this is all for naught anyway.
Me too. And my podcast is 200% more boring now cos I can't talk about Goblins anymore and instead talk about my adding of Badlands and Tombstalka to Grixis Delver because that's "innovation" in Legacy today. :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by Megadeus
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkenslight
Yeah, which exemplifies why we are where we are. Neither of those cards is actually "good." Militant isn't terrible, but still fails to be what you really need it to be, because Militant is more of Snapcaster hate than anything else. Samurai is just bad though, it will almost never do what you need it to do.Quote:
Originally Posted by morgan_coke
When they find a way to make Rest In Peace more playable, then things will really change. I'd say making it into a Thalia-like creature would go a long way toward that. Would Blue decks appropriate it? Some would, of course, but the idea would be to change some of the dynamic, provide some upside to being "Graveyard removing" rather than "Graveyard abusing."
Right now, there isn't many good reasons to not lean on the Graveyard as a resource. Sure, you may get blown out by a RiP once in a while, but overwhelmingly often you'll just get 5/5's for :b:, or Regrowth on a 2/1 body and so on. Imagine, with the "usual" meta-presence of Death and Taxes, what would happen to that dymanic, if there was a White creature who was main-deckable with a RiP effect. Decks would certainly have to consider how "in the 'Yard" they really want to be, when there is a much higher chance that those cards would, or could, be dead weight.
It's like the old Affinity days. You could build something to beat Affinity and do it pretty well, but then lose to random other nonsense, or your deck's own inconsistancy. Or, you could just play Affinity itself and take the coinflip in the mirror while still smashing other decks.
That's one of the main things learned from that era (and others): doing "the thing" is almost always better than being the deck trying to stop people from "doing the thing." Right now, "the thing" is using the Graveyard as a resource. Until there is sufficient reason not to, people will continue to do so to their advantage.
I'm "doing the thing", but not to the extent as everyone else. I concede the point however, that the format has needs. I don't necessarily think that banning half of Czech Pile is gonna accomplish anything. And realistically, if Wizards was gonna do anything about XeroxPlusWincon.dec, they would have done, and undone.Quote:
Originally Posted by H
Do I think DnT needs RiP on a stick? Truthfully, no. The deck is strong enough. Plus if you need gravehate that bad, there are ways. Macabre, Surgical, Leyline, Morningtide and RiP are all examples. No, they're not A++, but as a Jund player I don't get A++ choices either. That should be written somewhere I think. "You will not have perfect cards."
Sent from my SCH-I605 using Tapatalk
Well, I am certainly not for banning half of Czech Pile either. I'm also really not for banning cantrips, for that matter. Xerox is probably about the best thing you can do in Magic. Using the Graveyard as a resource is probably the second best thing to be doing. So, it's not really a surprise that doing both those things is, like, a really good thing to do.Quote:
Originally Posted by KærvekTheMerciless
But why is it that Death and Taxes shouldn't be better than it is now? I don't see any real reason, except maybe some people dislike playing against it. But who cares? I dislike playing against Storm, but I don't think it shouldn't get cards, or should be banned or whatever. I actually hate playing against Elves, but it doesn't bother me that it exists or could get cards to be more powerful.
I'm not advocating for perfect cards. I am advocating for cards that change meta-game dynamics, making choices more interesting. And I am fine is Jund colors get better cards too. RiP on a creature is not "perfect" because it is more vulnerable than an Enchantment, but it is more synergistic and more main-deckable, and that is the point.
RIP was very playable for awhile. The problem is now that the decks it's good against are even more efficient than they used to be. BR doesn't care at all about RIP if the RIP player is on the draw. Grixis stuff can achieve angler quickly and has a million cheap ways to stop RIP before it happens. The raw efficiency of the format is its own undoing at this point. It's become hyper efficient to the point where a 2 drop end all be all graveyard hate card is nigh unplayable
Every large tournament is dominated by blue cards, so just natural that you play a deck that utilizes these cards. If winning isn't important, play your pet deck. This is the nature of Legacy, been this way for long time. Good or bad, cards like DRS, Snapcaster, Strix and Jace just solidified this. Shocked it took this long for a deck like 4C control to become dominate, but also shows how powerful top was in Miracles.Quote:
Originally Posted by Megadeus
Maybe some super narrow cards would work?
Like,
W
2/1
If an instant would cost 0 or 1 mana, it instead costs 2
That specifically just hits Daze/Force/Brainstorm/Thought Scour/Opt (well, I guess StP too), but its narrow, it's universal, and it wouldn't see play in Xerox, while hating on it really well.
You could do something similar in red or black.
R
2/1
If an instant would cost 0 or 1 mana, ~ deals 2 damage to that spells controller
B
2/1
If an instant would cost 0 or 1 mana, that spells controller discards a card
I mean, hating on Xerox isn't hard, heck, those cards could be printed in standard and have ZERO effect on the format, while hugely shaking up Legacy. I mean heck, make it a cycle.
G
2/1
If an instant would cost 0 or 1 mana, target opponent of that spells controller puts a 1/1 token into play
U
0/1
If an instant would cost 0 or 1 mana, target opponent of that spells controller Fateseals 1
The term "delver deck" might was a bit misleading as not every aggro-control deck was using Delver AND DRS. The UR and RUG variants as well as part of the stoneblades add up with the DRS-only versions, while DRS itself is more than 1/3 of the meta itself (obviously also including Elves and other deck running it).Quote:
Originally Posted by Crimhead
A more realistic estimation (because I lack the time to sieve out the tournaments) would be ~40% of Legacy running DRS and/or Delver.