[Deck] Goblins

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Originally Posted by OlegtheSuper

Jrw1985, omni need to play 2 stifles and 2 trickbinds to counter effects of confusion in the ranks. So CitR is ok vs OMNI,S&T and slow decks like NIC FIT.
Trinisphere is ok vs OMNI and ANT but too slow. Trini vs OMNI buys you only up to 3 turns(wish-call-emrakul). For exampl OMNI can Probe you befor S&T and wish-call-emrakul-show-emrakul and you put trinisphere, very funny.... Trini do nothing vs emrakul as iona. But CitR do all you need.
I play 2 pyro in main it helps vs elves.
My sb:
3 cabal
3 relic
3 thalia
3 citr
2 magus
1 tear/wear/tuktuk

I think that it is very important for us to have spells(cabal), permanents(thalia) and S&T cards(CitR) in sb.

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Unfortunately Omnitell can win in response to those CitR triggers with only 1 Cunning Wish in hand (Wish for Fireminds Foresight getting Wish,Impulse,Brainstorm- then Wish for Release the Ants).
Also, 'only' buying 3 turns is fine,when in fact I need only 4 turns (in total) to kill them.
You are absoluteLy right about diversifiying our hatecards , but I also want to bring in cards that dodge their anti-hate. E.g. OmniTell cant really bring in any cards and this cant board out their 7+ counterspells . When you dont play sorceries after g1 you basically blank up to 7 cards of their deck (assuming that Lackey,Winstigator Caverns and Vial make your creatures immune to countermagic)

Thank you, Jon for bringing up 3-Sphere. I was indeed consider Iona,but in fact Trinisphere is better.

In situations where they have emrakul in their Hand when casting SnT -> Omniscience. , 3_Sphere buys you 1 turn, where Iona buys 0.

In situations where they know your hand they would still need to get a bounce spell or Emrakul BEFORE they drop Omniscience, which buys you 1 extra turn where they Wish for whatever and another where they cast whatever.

The additional benefit: 3_Sphere is 'good' against storm, while Iona is not.

The drawback:
3_Sphere doesnt beat for 7. So technically we can survive 1 Emrakul attack and Swing back with Iona. 3_Sphere locks us.

Still. The benefits outweigh the drawbacks. Iona is only ever better than 3_Sphere when you opponent has emrakul in hand AND you have 6 permanents + Iona AND you have more than 15 life.

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Originally Posted by OlegtheSuper

Jrw1985, omni need to play 2 stifles and 2 trickbinds to counter effects of confusion in the ranks. So CitR is ok vs OMNI,S&T and slow decks like NIC FIT.
Trinisphere is ok vs OMNI and ANT but too slow. Trini vs OMNI buys you only up to 3 turns(wish-call-emrakul). For exampl OMNI can Probe you befor S&T and wish-call-emrakul-show-emrakul and you put trinisphere, very funny.... Trini do nothing vs emrakul as iona. But CitR do all you need.
I play 2 pyro in main it helps vs elves.
My sb:
3 cabal
3 relic
3 thalia
3 citr
2 magus
1 tear/wear/tuktuk

I think that it is very important for us to have spells(cabal), permanents(thalia) and S&T cards(CitR) in sb.

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From Gatherer errata to CitR:
12/1/2004 The permanents are exchanged only if they're both on the battlefield when the ability resolves.

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Ca...n+in+the+ranks

So they don't need 2 Stifle effects. They need 1 bounce effect which they can easily play in response to the triggers at instant speed. Again, Trinisphere seems stronger. And more versatile.

Yes, trinisphere is better. But without vial it's seems we can play 1 creature in turn. Trinisphere works only in 1-2 matchs (omni and storm, may be vs elves...:laugh:) and do nothig in other. In current meta thalia better then chalice?

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Originally Posted by jrw1985

From Gatherer errata to CitR:
12/1/2004 The permanents are exchanged only if they're both on the battlefield when the ability resolves.

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Ca...n+in+the+ranks

So they don't need 2 Stifle effects. They need 1 bounce effect which they can easily play in response to the triggers at instant speed. Again, Trinisphere seems stronger. And more versatile.

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actually, just 1 stifle is fine. it counters the exchange trigger. so that is that.

the bounce effect don't help much, unless you bounce all permanents of the type that is going to be exchanged. (cause the choosing happens on resolution)

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Originally Posted by seilaquem

actually, just 1 stifle is fine. it counters the exchange trigger. so that is that.

the bounce effect don't help much, unless you bounce all permanents of the type that is going to be exchanged. (cause the choosing happens on resolution)

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Confusion in the Ranks will trigger twice, once for itself and once for Omniscience, as they both enter the battlefield at the same time. Once one of thee triggers has resolved however, the other will fizzle. This is why you would need two stifle-effects, By bouncing confusion in the ranks in response to the triggers, both will fizzle as CitR is now gone from the battlefield.

As for the Trinisphere discussion I am leaning towards playing it. I'm not sure about the numbers though, think it should be one or two, although it obviously depends on the rest of your list. Will play another Scandinavian Open this weekend (Legacy on sunday and you can find the stream at twitch.tv/svmtv). My hope is that I will be relatively settled on a list at that point, and be able to spend the next few days before Lille testing some of the matchups I'm less familiar with.

Trinisphere is a good suggestion but I'm worried that it has the potential to slow you down as much as the Omni-show player. Personally I'd suggest playing 4 Ethersworn Canonists in the board. because it does pretty much the same thing but can also beat down without hampering your own ability to cast your own dudes. Playing the maximum number should hopefully mean mulliganing less, because at the end of the day you still actually have to kill the omni-player pretty quickly, Trinisphere/Canonist or not.

In any case, best of luck in the tournament Sandro, you are a far braver man than I.

1) drop 3sphere if they SnT,
2) keep them off three lands or destroy Omniscience while they are unable to counter.

Sounds like a plan, albeit a slow one. Like Steve says: kill them fast, the only right option.

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Originally Posted by qwertyly

Yes, trinisphere is better. But without vial it's seems we can play 1 creature in turn. Trinisphere works only in 1-2 matchs (omni and storm, may be vs elves...:laugh:) and do nothig in other. In current meta thalia better then chalice?

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GoboLord is running 4 Vial 4 lackey 4 Winstigator. I don't think getting Gobbos in play thru 3Ball will be a problem. Also he's running 3 Chrome Mox which makes 3Ball come down T2 against Elves and Storm. I think its a strong card for him.

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Originally Posted by Chatto

1) drop 3sphere if they SnT,
2) keep them off three lands or destroy Omniscience while they are unable to counter.

Sounds like a plan, albeit a slow one. Like Steve says: kill them fast, the only right option.

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I disagree with you here. If we're just throwing our nuts on the table to see who can T3 more often, OmniTell is going to win that pissing contest. We need disruption. And I think, after much discussion here, that Trinisphere is the right call, especially for Christian's decklist.

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Originally Posted by jrw1985

I disagree with you here. If we're just throwing our nuts on the table to see who can T3 more often, OmniTell is going to win that pissing contest. We need disruption. And I think, after much discussion here, that Trinisphere is the right call, especially for Christian's decklist.

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Well, you'll have to kill him eventually :laugh: But in all seriousness, I do not say 3sphere isn't a good call (because it is), and I agree that disruption is needed, but you will lose without the correct way of playing your cards. Any Omni-player knows the disruption people bring. In my opinion the safest way of putting 3sphere into play is by using SnT in your advantage, while keeping the pressure on, and keeping them off mana. Also, some Omni-builds splash Black for the purpose of disruption.

EDIT: it also depends on their sequensing... SnT into Emrakul usually means gg, whereas SnT into Omniscience can give you a chance.

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Originally Posted by Sandro95

Confusion in the Ranks will trigger twice, once for itself and once for Omniscience, as they both enter the battlefield at the same time. Once one of thee triggers has resolved however, the other will fizzle. This is why you would need two stifle-effects, By bouncing confusion in the ranks in response to the triggers, both will fizzle as CitR is now gone from the battlefield.

As for the Trinisphere discussion I am leaning towards playing it. I'm not sure about the numbers though, think it should be one or two, although it obviously depends on the rest of your list. Will play another Scandinavian Open this weekend (Legacy on sunday and you can find the stream at twitch.tv/svmtv). My hope is that I will be relatively settled on a list at that point, and be able to spend the next few days before Lille testing some of the matchups I'm less familiar with.

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Good luck,mate.I will be on a tournament on sunday, but after 7 PM im back home and I want to see your face ( well your forearms would suffice) on camera.

Thank you everyone for the interesting discussion on Omnitell and the carious hate cards. Jon is spot on with what he wrote.
Im settled on 4 Trinisphere and 3 Pyrokinesis.

How would you Cover Storm,omnitell and Elves furthrr with these 8 remaining slots.
I figured out I can board out the following:


OmniTell: (6)
3 Tarfire, 1 Sharpshooter, 1 Krenko, 1 Tuktuk

Storm: (6-14)
3 Tarfire, 1 Stingscourger, 1 Krenko, 1 Tuktuk, (4 Vial?, 4 Ringleader?)

Elves : ( 5 )
1 Krenko, Mob Bos, (4 Piledriver? )

Looking forward to reading your feedback.
Christian

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Originally Posted by GoboLord

Good luck,mate.I will be on a tournament on sunday, but after 7 PM im back home and I want to see your face ( well your forearms would suffice) on camera.

Thank you everyone for the interesting discussion on Omnitell and the carious hate cards. Jon is spot on with what he wrote.
Im settled on 4 Trinisphere and 3 Pyrokinesis.

How would you Cover Storm,omnitell and Elves furthrr with these 8 remaining slots.
I figured out I can board out the following:


OmniTell: (6)
3 Tarfire, 1 Sharpshooter, 1 Krenko, 1 Tuktuk

Storm: (6-14)
3 Tarfire, 1 Stingscourger, 1 Krenko, 1 Tuktuk, (4 Vial?, 4 Ringleader?)

Elves : ( 5 )
1 Krenko, Mob Bos, (4 Piledriver? )

Looking forward to reading your feedback.
Christian

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Ok, so that means you have 17-25 cards to side out in all these matchups together. 4 Trinisphere can be boarded in in all three matchups, and 3 Pyrokinesis vs Elves!, giving you 2-8 slots left to fill. Seeing as these are combo matchups where in my experience of overboarding is not an issue, I would like to go for the full eight cards (across the three decks, in total). Chalice of the Void and Ethersworn Canonist are the most of obvious ones, but they're too similar to Trinisphere in my opinion.

Grafdigger's Cage is good versus Storm and Elves! I'd recommend it as a one-of. Relic is strong vs Storm and solid versus Omnitell, I like two of them. Wear // Tear is good versus Omnitell, Stoneforge Mystic decks and random things like Inkmoth Nexus (although it's probably better with Ethersworn Canonist than with Trinisphere vs Omnitell). I like having two copies. Of course this is only valid if you're splashing. I like Chalice of the Void already, and it gets even better with Chrome Mox. But still you don't want to overload on one type of hate. Hope this helps, I will post again when I have access to a computer. I'm on a tablet right now.

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Originally Posted by GoboLord

Good luck,mate.I will be on a tournament on sunday, but after 7 PM im back home and I want to see your face ( well your forearms would suffice) on camera.

Thank you everyone for the interesting discussion on Omnitell and the carious hate cards. Jon is spot on with what he wrote.
Im settled on 4 Trinisphere and 3 Pyrokinesis.

How would you Cover Storm,omnitell and Elves furthrr with these 8 remaining slots.
I figured out I can board out the following:


OmniTell: (6)
3 Tarfire, 1 Sharpshooter, 1 Krenko, 1 Tuktuk

Storm: (6-14)
3 Tarfire, 1 Stingscourger, 1 Krenko, 1 Tuktuk, (4 Vial?, 4 Ringleader?)

Elves : ( 5 )
1 Krenko, Mob Bos, (4 Piledriver? )

Looking forward to reading your feedback.
Christian

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Since you're running Rg I'm not going to recommend Cannonist or Thalia or Wear//Tear for yor SB.

4 Thorn of Amethyst
3 Pyrokinesis (Still not sure if 3 Mox + 3 Pyro is sustainable, but I guess you're only boarding them against Elves anyway)
3 Surgical Extraction - It's free, it's an instant, and it can win you the game T0 against an all-in deck like TinFins. It's also an incredible asset against decks like Lands and can even be good against OmniTell decks with Intuition. I'm currently running 1 RiP Sb just for Goyf MUs, but you're not very worried about that it seems and you're not running W.
2 Krosan Grip - Let's face it, KGrip is the best G sideboard card. It gives you extra game against Omni, Miracles, SFM and black decks running E Plague. If you're playing a G splash you might as well play K Grip.
3 Chalice of the Void - Sandro was advising against running Chalice because of redundancy (too much like Trinisphere). I'm going to respectfully disagree. I think the redundancy makes it better since it compliments 3Ball in combo MUs, but Chalice is incredibly strong on its own outside of combo games. First off, T1 Chalice @ 1 or 0 and T2 Trinisphere will win you the game against most Combo decks. Chalice is not just good against Combo though, it is much much better against Fair decks than other Storm hate. You can easily lock out a RUG, BUG, Infect, RUB Pyromancer or other fair decks with a Chalice @ 1. Splitting the last 3 slots up to have diversified hate is tempting, but hitting that miser's Grafdigger's Cage is unlikely, and you can still wreak havoc with Chalice @ 1 in the matches where you might bring in Cage. On the flip side, a card like Cage is useful in far fewer MUs than Chalice. Running Cage over Chalice puts a much narrower card in your sideboard that you will not bring in as often, and if you're running it as a singleton you'll be less likely to draw it. Same goes for other 1-ofs. Sandro suggested running Relic too, but I think Surgical Extraction will give you stronger graveyard interactions. And, if you winf up facing nothing but RUG Delver and Pyromancer decks, you can side in Chalice instead of Relic which I think is stronger anyway.

4 Trinisphere
3 Pyrokinesis
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Krosan Grip
3 Chalice of the Void

Anywho, that's what I would run with your list and I think it will get the job done. Let us know your thoughts!

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Originally Posted by jrw1985

Since you're running Rg I'm not going to recommend Cannonist or Thalia or Wear//Tear for yor SB.

4 Thorn of Amethyst
3 Pyrokinesis (Still not sure if 3 Mox + 3 Pyro is sustainable, but I guess you're only boarding them against Elves anyway)
3 Surgical Extraction - It's free, it's an instant, and it can win you the game T0 against an all-in deck like TinFins. It's also an incredible asset against decks like Lands and can even be good against OmniTell decks with Intuition. I'm currently running 1 RiP Sb just for Goyf MUs, but you're not very worried about that it seems and you're not running W.
2 Krosan Grip - Let's face it, KGrip is the best G sideboard card. It gives you extra game against Omni, Miracles, SFM and black decks running E Plague. If you're playing a G splash you might as well play K Grip.
3 Chalice of the Void - Sandro was advising against running Chalice because of redundancy (too much like Trinisphere). I'm going to respectfully disagree. I think the redundancy makes it better since it compliments 3Ball in combo MUs, but Chalice is incredibly strong on its own outside of combo games. First off, T1 Chalice @ 1 or 0 and T2 Trinisphere will win you the game against most Combo decks. Chalice is not just good against Combo though, it is much much better against Fair decks than other Storm hate. You can easily lock out a RUG, BUG, Infect, RUB Pyromancer or other fair decks with a Chalice @ 1. Splitting the last 3 slots up to have diversified hate is tempting, but hitting that miser's Grafdigger's Cage is unlikely, and you can still wreak havoc with Chalice @ 1 in the matches where you might bring in Cage. On the flip side, a card like Cage is useful in far fewer MUs than Chalice. Running Cage over Chalice puts a much narrower card in your sideboard that you will not bring in as often, and if you're running it as a singleton you'll be less likely to draw it. Same goes for other 1-ofs. Sandro suggested running Relic too, but I think Surgical Extraction will give you stronger graveyard interactions. And, if you winf up facing nothing but RUG Delver and Pyromancer decks, you can side in Chalice instead of Relic which I think is stronger anyway.

4 Trinisphere
3 Pyrokinesis
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Krosan Grip
3 Chalice of the Void

Anywho, that's what I would run with your list and I think it will get the job done. Let us know your thoughts!

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To clarify; I'm not advocating against Chalice. I happen to like the card a lot! I just think the redundancy makes it worse, as it's easier to sideboard against a lot of the same hate (storm players can bring in Abrupt Decay, wish for artifact removal etc.) Anyway, great discussion, keep it up! :)

Gobolord, what do you think about 2 slaughter games. It sounds ok with moxes/ancient tombs?

So I have proxied a list that's running a break through the line and 3x Subterranean Scout's. I have found that it makes my Lackies relevant during the late game. They also make piledrivers really potent. Also Aether Vials are more efficient being able to stay on two and three.

I do not find that the card is good against unfair decks, but in my meta which consists of BUG, Blade, and Maverick it is very relevant and powerful.

Break Through the Line btw is nuts against Miracles. Having the ability to give things haste and unblockable wins games.


2x Goblin Chieftain
4x Goblin Lackey
4x Goblin Matron
3x Goblin Piledriver
4x Goblin Ringleader
1x Goblin Sharpshooter
3x Goblin Warchief
1x Krenko, Mob Boss
2x Mogg War Marshal
1x Skirk Prospector
1x Stingscourger
3x Subterranean Scout
2x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1x Tuktuk Scrapper

4x Arid Mesa
4x Cavern of Souls
4x Mountain
2x Plateau
4x Rishadan Port
4x Wasteland

1x Tarfire

1x Break Through the Line

4x AEther Vial

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Originally Posted by GoblinTurkey

So I have proxied a list that's running a break through the line and 3x Subterranean Scout's. I have found that it makes my Lackies relevant during the late game. They also make piledrivers really potent. Also Aether Vials are more efficient being able to stay on two and three.

I do not find that the card is good against unfair decks, but in my meta which consists of BUG, Blade, and Maverick it is very relevant and powerful.

Break Through the Line btw is nuts against Miracles. Having the ability to give things haste and unblockable wins games.


2x Goblin Chieftain
4x Goblin Lackey
4x Goblin Matron
3x Goblin Piledriver
4x Goblin Ringleader
1x Goblin Sharpshooter
3x Goblin Warchief
1x Krenko, Mob Boss
2x Mogg War Marshal
1x Skirk Prospector
1x Stingscourger
3x Subterranean Scout
2x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1x Tuktuk Scrapper

4x Arid Mesa
4x Cavern of Souls
4x Mountain
2x Plateau
4x Rishadan Port
4x Wasteland

1x Tarfire

1x Break Through the Line

4x AEther Vial

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That is true, but pyrokinesis, tarfire, and stingscourger usually are pretty bad against unfair decks.

Unless we r talking about reanimator or elves, but then again , there are better removal suited for each matchup

So I guess it is worth the shot!!

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Originally Posted by GoboLord

How would you Cover Storm,omnitell and Elves furthrr with these 8 remaining slots.
I figured out I can board out the following:

OmniTell: (6)
3 Tarfire, 1 Sharpshooter, 1 Krenko, 1 Tuktuk

Looking forward to reading your feedback.
Christian

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Hey there. It has been quite some time since I've last taken Goblins to an event. Twice or so in the last days of Treasure Cruise. And an even longer break before that. So I'm rusty. And I haven't been to the local shops lately, so I am out of touch with the meta. So, I did what any lackey would do. I sleeved up GoboLord's 67.

The sideboard rounded out like so:

3 Goblin Settler
3 Chalice of the Void
2 Grafdigger's Cage.


I went 1-2 in matches: Omnitell, 0-2. Miracles, 2-1. UR Delver, 0-2.

Against Omni, I sided out as you suggested and brought in 4 Trinisphere and 2 Settler. In the previous, lesser incarnation of Omnitell I found Settler to be a solid advantage and the card is obviously near and dear. Though, back then she came down after Thalia and Port. The whole mana denial plan was more serious.

But onto the games against Omnitell tonight.

Game one, I got off to a rocky start. So did my opponent. Eventually, Show and Tell->Omni->Emrakul spelled my doom. I would have swung for lethal the next turn.

Game two, I open on seven with Ringleader, Trinishphere, and Lands. I keep a loose six with a decent array of Goblins, but no Trinisphere. I don't see a Sphere before my opponent gets to 3 Islands and I lose. I really should have mulliganed more aggressively here. As someone said above, you really need disruption and a threat. Not just half of the equation.

Thank you guys for your suggestions.
I discussed this matter with ScatmanX and we had the same back-and-forth about Chalice of the Void as Sandro and Jon. I like this card so much, although knowing that we want to diversify our hate against combo decks. I do not Intend to bring in Chalice against any non-combo deck (and I am counting Burn and Infect as combo decks). So Chalice might be good vs. RUG an UR delver but I dont think I need to improve these MUs and I also do not want to cast chalice on turn 2 when they already have a flipped delver or a Pyromancer online; this Puts me too far behind.
What I find interesting is that you suggest some Form of gravehate, which I do not think is needed right now. While you can bring in GY hate against storm and Omnitell, I dont think that this will improve the respective MUs significantly and they will often be able to ignore it. Do you think TinFins, Reanimator and Dredge will be a Factor at the GP? And if that were so, I would need to Reserve at least 4 slots on these MUs in Order to have a realistic Chance of winning

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Originally Posted by GoboLord

Do you think TinFins, Reanimator and Dredge will be a Factor at the GP? And if that were so, I would need to Reserve at least 4 slots on these MUs in Order to have a realistic Chance of winning

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Tinfins and Dredge will be played in the usual number of any rogue deck, but if enough people are trying to play the metagame, Reanimator could be there in droves, given how good it's Omnitell matchup is.

Thankfully Reanimator is rubbish against Death and Taxes, and pretty bad against Miracles and Bug Delver which are IMO the best of the rest.

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Originally Posted by GoboLord

Thank you guys for your suggestions.
I discussed this matter with ScatmanX and we had the same back-and-forth about Chalice of the Void as Sandro and Jon. I like this card so much, although knowing that we want to diversify our hate against combo decks. I do not Intend to bring in Chalice against any non-combo deck (and I am counting Burn and Infect as combo decks). So Chalice might be good vs. RUG an UR delver but I don't think I need to improve these MUs and I also do not want to cast chalice on turn 2 when they already have a flipped delver or a Pyromancer online; this Puts me too far behind.
What I find interesting is that you suggest some Form of gravehate, which I do not think is needed right now. While you can bring in GY hate against storm and Omnitell, I dont think that this will improve the respective MUs significantly and they will often be able to ignore it. Do you think TinFins, Reanimator and Dredge will be a Factor at the GP? And if that were so, I would need to Reserve at least 4 slots on these MUs in Order to have a realistic Chance of winning

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I don't think those decks will be major factors at the GP. The reason I like Relic so much right now isn't because of the matchups where it simply wins the game, but because it's so often a very solid card. It's a one mana card to keep our curve low (your list is already more proactive, might not be in as much need of this) that also handily disrupts our opponents' ability to play their game. Tarmogoyf, Snappy, DTT, PiF are all cards affected by Relic. There is obviously an opportunity cost to playing it though, and you have to weigh the pros and cons.

Edit: Not saying Relic automatically wins the game versus Dredge, Reanimator etc. It was an exaggeration to differentiate between decks.