It's crazy to me how many people in here are looking at DnT and thinking, "man, this deck is awful to play against, but is it awful enough? Clearly it needs more wretched, binary bears."
Printable View
It's crazy to me how many people in here are looking at DnT and thinking, "man, this deck is awful to play against, but is it awful enough? Clearly it needs more wretched, binary bears."
I've just found this event where 100% of the decks have Stoneforge Mystic, 0 DRS or Delver, 50% Brainstorm.
Dude, you trollin'?Quote:
Originally Posted by Whitefaces
Well, that was my point. The goals here are so unclear. What do we want? The closest thing I can identify is that people want TX to be the dominant deck construction theory in the format, but want it to be applied in a variety of decks. That isn't possible as long as so many of the individually powerful cards in the format drive you toward a single strategy. In this case a large variety of printings have made UBx value/midrange the best thing to be doing by far. The threats are way too above the curve for there to be any true competition. That consolidates deck construction and the format.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dice_Box
I think it's interesting how people dismiss Gurmag Angler as a problem so readily. In the original poll for this thread, Tarmogoyf has the second-most votes. When a beater is too efficient in the TX shell, it drives all its competition out of the format. For a while, that was Tarmogoyf. Today, it's clearly Angler. A one-mana 5/5 is completely insane. Especially as most playable removal has consolidated around the "CMC or less" template. Why do you want to play a Tarmogoyf that can be affected after it's on board and killed by more stuff, or a Knight that makes you tap 3 lands to put it into play (and have 3 lands in your GY to make it the same size), or a Mongoose that will be smaller than this all the time, when you can just use the dreck in your GY to make this a permanent 5/5? Why would you play a 3- or 4-mana 5/5 beater with a drawback, like most black creatures had historically? Why would you try to build some synergistic board when you can just play the best of everything and still get a 5/5? What are you scared of, RIP? That's just as good against the competition, so it's barely a check on this card at all.
Baleful Strix is blazing archon/removal/cantrip/force pitch/jitte carrier all in one. Compare it to Elvish Visionary, Coiling Oracle, Dark Confidant.
Snapcaster Mage gets more goodies all the time. Is Plow good? How about Plow with a 2/1 body attached for 3 at instant speed? Or whatever other super busted 1-mana spell you want? Hey they just printed 1-mana black removal that isn't crap for the first time ever. Compare Eternal Witness, Fleshbag Marauder, Bone Shredder, Fire Imp.
You see where you end up. It's why I don't care about DRS all that much. To me it's just right there with all these other cards, with the slight caveat that it actually would be interesting and good outside the same old Xerox/U shell. Very good, powerful card, sure. But at least it's got some broad application. It's just that the UBxx mess is too thick right now to justify anything else. Go watch Deadguy vs. Grixis Delver for the win and in to top 8 on Saturday. Deadguy player has a clean mana curve, cheap interaction, solid manabase, his own deathrites, and none of it matters.
Ban Brainstorm, Deathrite, whatever. It's not a one-card solution at this point. It's years of printings that have made one particular strategy better than all competitors.
Yeah it breaks my heart to put together a deck and feel like I've got a plan for the good decks/strategies, and then just get fucking steamrolled by the efficiency of the format. Was gonna play pox tonight but will probably lose a die roll and get embarrassed so why bother?Quote:
Originally Posted by Megadeus
f**ing ban this retarded gitaxian probe finally. I feel like its been an eternity since i have been preaching this. The card takes the skill out of the game, enables perfect non games and fuels the super balanced delve mechanic because why f***ing not. I cant f***ing stand that card anymore. The card doesnt add any positive aspect to the game, its just annoying and a complete design failure enabling 56 card decks with potential synergies for cantripping durdle.
Ive been saying that for a long time but i just played a game which showcased this perfectly. Kept a deathrite, daze, etc hand against grixis and it should have been an ok starting point... Also tried to keep my opponents graveyard at bay with DRS, kept him at 0 cards to deny early Angler as good as possible. No problem, drop Pyromancer, daze your removal and chain Probe ("Oh, you have no anwser in hand?"), Draw another Probe, Ponder, Probe, fetch and follow the setup with Gurmag angler - All enabled by this brilliant card design.
Shit like this shouldnt be possible and i could continue with arguments against the card but it all boils down to extremely shitty card design and a big mistake they should finally take care of.
edit: Plus it wouldnt really hurt any of the decks that play probe, those decks would eassily be playable without it except for taking out one factor allowing huge variance and non skill perfect information games
I'm inclined to agree. Probe causes Storm players to know precisely when they can go off, which albeit is useful information, but I'll give you a scenario. I recently played against Cook. He had no discard in his open, a Probe, and a t2 kill. I had Chalice, but no accelerant to drop t1 Chalice for 1. So I play a land and pass. He Probes, sees the Chalice, and goes for it. If Probe didn't exist, that game would have turned out different.Quote:
Originally Posted by janchu88
Narrow example, and nothing probably would have changed, but that one card in many different decks is just plain busted. Oh, sensitive combo deck? Run Probe, because free perfect information is so god damn good.
Much to my dismay, I do see the TX design flood in Legacy. I appreciate and value builders. Always have. The fact that you took your brain, your time, your effort in testing, your lumps and bruises in losses, I will always value the hard workers. TX as a shell is just too fucking cheap. You could run TX with Scaled Wurms and still stomp ass. That tells me that as a whole, Legacy is mostly screwed. That some 10 year old with mommy's credit card can netdeck a TX shell and go top8 tournaments with it is just plain sickening. I believe, with all of my being, that this was NOT what they intended Magic to be. This was NOT the vision.
Damn you, TurboXerox. Damn you right to fucking hell.
Sent from my SCH-I605 using Tapatalk
These creatures.......jesus GOD I want them. Black, red and green, please. Now. LmaoQuote:
Originally Posted by morgan_coke
Sent from my SCH-I605 using Tapatalk
Why do we need more maindeckable graveyard hate? It eliminates so many fringe cards and strategies from viability. If anything they should start banning overpowered hatebears so that "distributed win conditions + piles of efficient hate/control" aren't the only good strategies.
I wouldn't mind seeing Surgical go for this reason.Quote:
Originally Posted by KærvekTheMerciless
listen this againQuote:
Originally Posted by twndomn
Isn't this the same foolish argument he made for DTT/TC?Quote:
Originally Posted by twndomn
I think he wanted to see more of what the meta would do in that case, but yes, it does upset him that people complain when the cards suck and also when the cards are strong.Quote:
Originally Posted by CptHaddock
Of course, it's easy to lambast his position when it's probably demonstrable that TC and DTT were simply not healthy for the format. If you want to make the case that Deathrite Shaman is somehow as powerful or as format constricting as either of those, I'll listen, but I really doubt I am going to buy it.
The deck doesn't just lose Probe and become a 56-card deck. What would Probe have been replaced with? Discard? Then the game would have ended identically but you'd have had one less card in hand when you lost.Quote:
Originally Posted by KærvekTheMerciless
What part sickens you the most? That the player is 10? That their parent paid for the cards? Is it less sickening if it's a 30-year-old who spends their own money?Quote:
Originally Posted by KærvekTheMerciless
Who is they? Richard Garfield? Current WotC leadership? Members of the old guard? Pretty sure the new guard's vision of 'What Magic should be' is Standard.Quote:
Originally Posted by KærvekTheMerciless
Since BS can't be banned because the world would end; the segue was a cry for, "We must have answers to fight the blue stew!"
I have never seen a Spirit of the Labyrinth in play...
I mentioned this Leyline somewhere years ago, but decided to put in an hour:
https://i.imgur.com/9SL9HJX.jpg
RIP Elves :cry::cry::cry:
P Sullivan on DRS ban
https://go.twitch.tv/videos/184065868?t=22h42m10s
Pretty entertaining
This is suggestible, by variance, but also, improbable. It is foolish to suggest that a random selection of 1 card from his deck would have landed the exact card that would have accomplished the same result. It's also called cherry picking. And to think that someone like Cook would run what, 11 discards main? Yeah, right.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ace/Homebrew
What sickens me is that this is somehow acceptable in a game that, since its inception, has been about what YOU can do with YOUR ability. Creating an alternate scenario, with a 30-something and specifying that it's his money, that's just you splitting hairs instead of seeing the point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ace/Homebrew
I didn't say "should be". I said "intended". I said "vision". And I'm not talking about Standard. I'm talking about Legacy. Obviously they have to administrate more than one format here. When the powers that be created Legacy, their intention certainly couldn't have been to create a format where one archetype rules all. That's not healthy at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ace/Homebrew
Perhaps, instead of typing some hamhanded rebuttal, you should actually read things, and respond with relevance. Might make things easier.
Watch, his next move will be ad hominem.
Sent from my SCH-I605 using Tapatalk
sorry julian, didn't see you there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian23
Call it The Last Elven Stronghold and exempt green draw, just because.
I honestly think DTT is fine power-level wise. It just made a deck people hate playing against (myself included) very good.Quote:
Originally Posted by H
I think the same is true of DRS. People just don't like playing against the UBx soup and point to the card that appears in every iteration of it from Czech to Aluren to Shardless. The difference is it's a lot easier to nerf a combo deck than a fair deck.
Personally, I would've liked to see the format with DTT enabling less busted control and combo decks than Miracles and Omnitell by leaving it but banning really stupid binary cards like Counterbalance and Omniscience. It's likely those archetypes would've still been good and there would've been a meaningful decision about using your GY either proactively for Angler or reactively by looking for answers. It also would've mitigated the impact of Leovold in the U mirrors by not being an actual draw, which meant that it wouldn't be a race to grind out the other person then slam your one-sided hosing win con.
But, I say that while also believing that the format would be even BETTER had that mechanic never returned in Khans. The next Delve card up is always a problem. TC, DTT, Angler, and Become Immense are incredibly frustrating because they are always essentially heavily discounted versions of strong effects. The fact that you can use the cantrips to streamline whatever plan you have with these cards while also fueling their discount is incredibly constricting. Other cheap effects on color/theme with that mechanic like Prowess and the YP version of it, or the efficiency of things like DRS, Fatal Push and Baleful Strix, just homogenize more and more.
Quote:
Originally Posted by twndomn
I am starting to catch up on Modern (thanks GP Trios for generating interest in me playing Legacy for teams... :p) and I was ecstatic to see that PSully was doing commentary again. Between the Bingo thing and this rant, it's one of the more entertaining SCG casts I've seen in a while.
Bwhahahahaha.. oh, wait, you're serious? If Chalice is the 'problem' and they actually ban it, I'm likely all-in on Storm with major MD Leovold hate. And (as mentioned above) I'm SUPER psyched about Trios. Force these standard players to care about matches that make their poor heads spin. :cool:Quote:
Originally Posted by Dice_Box
Someone already mentioned Samurai of the Pale Curtain, but, seriously? I'm obliged to quote someone who said it better than I can...Quote:
Originally Posted by iatee
QFT.Quote:
Originally Posted by taconaut
People really need to be talking about this when they talk about format health overall. Wasteland is no longer feared, I haven't seen a B2B or a Price in months - for whatever reason, old-fashioned Tempo (looking at you RUG delver) is apparently criminally underrepresented in peoples' local meta. I don't claim to be a Delver master, but I feel like the push in aggro towards Grixis and Czech Pile has made plays like Stifle-the-fetch much less fearsome. People are just setting up shop on both sides and hoping they are better at it than their opponents.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronald Deuce
I think that says more about how long you've been active in the Legacy scene than anything else. If you want to actually beat the blue decks reliably with your DnT pile, it's an easy include. Unfortunately people seem to be more concerned with playing a bad Chalice, or suggesting made-up-cards to 'fix' a problem that doesn't actually exist, than actually trying to win games.Quote:
Originally Posted by non-inflammable
I would then play painter to name green so my brainstorm gets around it. Broke the format againQuote:
Originally Posted by non-inflammable
1995 long enough for you? I missed getting a 5 digit DCI number because I thought it was just a fad...Quote:
Originally Posted by Ellomdian
I guess it was easier for you to just take a shot at me than appreciate my minor anecdotal evidence, but you knew that.
I think people want a way to punish the cantrips without doing even more damage to alternate engines. They want a cheap card that is somehow unplayable alongside Brainstorm, powerful enough to actually see play, all while not disputing non-cantrip filtering. It's a hilariously specific niche that I'm not convinced can actually be filled.Quote:
Originally Posted by PirateKing
Leo just happens to be the worst of both worlds. Well, Notion Thief too but who plays that.
but just think of all the amazing interactions that could be done with that and 4x Bounty of the Hunt...Quote:
Originally Posted by Megadeus
Wow, thanks for reminding me why I have coverage muted 100% of the time. You have to either be wrong on purpose or not understand the concept of "a group" of people to be that stupid.Quote:
Originally Posted by twndomn
People complain about things. People on forums (a group of people, no less) can complain about the exact opposite thing at the same time! It doesn't mean that the same people are complaining about both things. They can even both valid complaints, even though they're talking about the same exact thing from 2 different sides! Okay now that we have numbers of people that are more than 1 settled we can take on his next big point.
People can want cards that are good, but not too good to be printed for their format. Something that's playable, but doesn't make it into 6/8 of the top 8, for example. If no good cards are printed, their want is not satisfied. If a card is printed that needs to go in most decks in the format their want is still not satisfied.
You're right, what I meant was that Cook was going to beat you no matter what.Quote:
Originally Posted by KærvekTheMerciless
Huh... sounds like scientology...Quote:
Originally Posted by KærvekTheMerciless
Let's remember that all sets since Alpha contain cards that are superior to others. It is foolish to suggest that a player's ability on their own is what should determine the outcome of a match. It's also called wishful thinking. A player's ability has only ever been part of the equation.
It is also a positive that a format has decks capable of high performance even when the pilot has low experience. Look at Burn, the concept/execution is simple and the deck is highly affordable. The deck is capable of winning an event even if the pilot has limited experience with the deck or knowledge of the format. The beauty of the game is that a player who has experience with the deck and knowledge of the format is rewarded with opportunities to succeed where the less experienced player would fail. If you can't handle losing, you should reconsider playing competitively.
There will always be a best deck and a best card. There will always be people who play the best deck because they feel it gives them an advantage. Similarly there will always be people that play the deck that is best at beating the best deck, for the same reasons. Lastly there will always be people who play whatever they want because it is what they like, or possibly, because they feel it gives them an advantage. Whining about hypothetical spoiled children that win tournaments is ridiculous.
https://i.imgur.com/tC5uumk.pngQuote:
Originally Posted by KærvekTheMerciless
I love hearing about you talk about what the creators of type 1.5 intended.
https://www.memecreator.org/static/i...plates/567.jpg
Please, tell me more...
Complaining about people complaining about whining while your signature is Tasteless bemoaning the amount of complaining.Quote:
Originally Posted by Phoenix Ignition
That's pretty much exclusively why this thread exists though. The old days are gone, now it's just popcorn and lawn chairs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord_Mcdonalds
But to be fair even back in the days where everyone would have been nice to each other I'd probably still bitch about the MTG commentators. They are so bad it's astounding.
P.Sulli's rant is really just an exercise in how big of a strawman can one angry dude make
"Don't complain that Deathrite makes mana when Lions Eye Diamond Exists, when Ancient Tomb exists."
Yeah man, W O K E argument you got there.
I have a horrible record against Cook lifetime. But realistically, I have horrible stats in Legacy as a whole. But I don't really care about that. I might leave a tournament 1-4, like I did last time, and make the 3 hour drive thinking about what I can change. I might scrub out of a GP on day 1, but you can make damn sure I turn a profit on the trip in just grinders. I'm not into this format because I win or lose. (And I do more losing) I'm not out to play professionally. I play Legacy because I want to. Because this format is where I want to be. And I play what I built, because I built it. That's what I do. I play my shitpile, against other shitpiles. And that's OK with me. It's how I enjoy this game. However, certain things create unenjoyable situations. Like watching my opponent drop Emrakul on t1 because.....fucking junk shit. Like seeing the same god damn 21 cards in almost every damn deck, because....fucking junk shit. I don't care to see that, it cheapens the experience. Its success only enhances its status, and influences more people into adapting "fucking junk shit" into their decks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ace/Homebrew
No, I don't like the color blue. Blue can die in a fire. A horrible, fiery, RED fire.
Sent from my SCH-I605 using Tapatalk
Time for a hypothetical question: suppose the best engine in Legacy wasn't Xerox but Loam and suppose Loam decks would use all kinds of different wincons in different archetypes, you have a loam combo deck, control deck, tempo deck, aggro deck. Now suppose Loam has a 60+% in representation. How long would it take for Loam to be banned?
It's really easy to fix Legacy, there is just too much blue circle jerking going on to make it happen...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nielsie
For green cards it usually takes a good couple of months, for blue cards it's actually longer, more like a couple of years or so, give or take.
You mean by him just taking a look at the odds and deciding to outright kill you rather than peeking at your grip of "do nothing" beforehand? It sounds like you don't know how to play storm by the odds.Quote:
Originally Posted by KærvekTheMerciless
Questionable - particularly when you've not listed-off your T1 land. If the land was colorless, Plains, Windswept Heath, Mire, Badlands, Scrubland, etc... then TES should be going for a kill as soon as possible (Tabernacle decks generally betray their identity on turn one). Pretty much every fair, non-Tabernacle, non-FoW deck in legacy hides behind discard or 2-drop "you can't win" cards; it's a pretty poor example for Probe dictating the course of the game.Quote:
Originally Posted by KærvekTheMerciless
The more effective way to make this point is to correctly draw the systematic connection between Probe decks and deeper tournament runs on the back of ruling out need to follow a conservative line. There are better reasons to ban Probe than this, but yes, there is a connection between free info converting into free wins.
This is absolutely spot on.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
I actually think that'd be awesome.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nielsie
Next step: fit Brainstorm and Life from the Loam into the same deck.
Wasn't BUG Landstill doing that before bullshit like delver and DRS came around?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronald Deuce
The Mind Harvester in my signature fits Brainstorm and Life from the Loam in the same deck. I haven't updated that thread with my current list in quite a while, but the shell is still basically the same, except I cut the EE/Ruins for Stage/Depths.
This was my pet deck pre-DRS and Shardless Agent and I still have them sleeved up, the primer I wrote was merged under Team America Control:
1 Verdant Catacombs
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
3 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland
3 Snapcaster Mage
1 Vendilion Clique
4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Liliana of the Veil
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Snare
2 Ghastly Demise
1 Counterspell
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Ponder
2 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Innocent Blood
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Life from the Loam
I was late to adapt Abrupt Decay because it's not a 1-mana removal spell. Someone on this forum was buying Jap foil Decays at $170-$190 for his Storm sideboard. BUG Delver performed well with Abrupt Decay against RUG which led to Canadian's downfall.
I actually ran Brainstorm with Loam in some Slide lists when I was experimenting with Blue. It was just kind of depressing how much better it was than having cycling cards, so I dropped it.
EDIT: Brainstorm + Loam is basically the Legacy version of CAW-Cartel. It's just that with Delver and Angler, you don't really need to mess around with a slow-ish card draw engine when you can just win. DRS ubiquity also somewhat suppresses Loam since it can hit both halves of the Loam engine repeatedly.
This is a pretty sketchy comparison, because Loam is a naturally more narrow card. Loam only gives you CA in terms of lands and graveyard interactions. It is an inherently more limited engine than 1-mana filters, and it supports exactly 2 archetypes - a combo/prison deck and a midrange deck - and that's it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nielsie
In order to imagine your scenario, I have to imagine tempo decks and straight combo decks running off Loam. I Also need to imagine a variety of these decks - Tempo decks as varied as U/R, Infect and Grixis; combo decks as varied as Reanimator, Storm, and S&T; midranged decks as varied as Czech and Blade Control; and a variety of rogue decks too - all powered by Loam.
I personally just can't picture Loam supporting that much variety because the card is just not that versatile. So inevitable when I imagine a format with 60% Loam decks, I do not imagine diversity. It's like trying to imagine a diverse format with a variety of play-styles all supported by LED - it doesn't make any sense.