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Yeah, you've mentioned that... repeatedly. Some people are sold on the idea, some aren't (including me). I've tested it a little, and for me it was just too slow and didn't have enough gas. Right now I'm running a list that is very similar to Pulp_Fiction's list that he just posted. I'm not brazenly claiming that it's the best, but it's the build I prefer.Quote:
Originally Posted by nickrit2000
There is the tourney I played in.
http://www.deckcheck.net/event.php?e...%2F+GothCon+09
I lost to the decks placing #2 and #6 to be cut out of the top8 :(
I really don't like the idea of playing without LED/Tutor. That's the deck's strongest engine, and it becomes much less consistent without it.
What do you do against blue then when you have to empty your hand?
First playing a Chant or Duress seems like a good plan. You usually can combo really fast without protection, which is of course a gamble, but pays off at times, or you have a hand with Chant/Duress/Ponder/Brainstorm and sculpt until you can combo with protection. The only thing discarding your hand to LED changes is that you can do this earlier.Quote:
Originally Posted by mercc
I also think it's the strongest part of the deck, being able to put Ad Nauseam on the top of your library then saccing LED on upkeep and playing it on your draw step is just a beating against deck that don't run counters. And those that do give you more time to set up.Quote:
Originally Posted by gamegeek2
What do you guys think is the best setup vs. blue then even after sideboard?
You would want to play the LED-package after SB also or PoN?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Misplayer
I play Chain of Vapor and Wipe Away main deck. There are more answers in the board.
I keep LED package against blue postboard. This does mean my CB matchup is pretty bad. I also play 1 PoN Sb to board in against fast blue deck, which I've liked thus far.Quote:
Originally Posted by mercc
This doesn't seem like enough to me, maybe because I play in a CB-infested meta. Chain of Vapor is not an answer to Counterbalance, and with Wipe Away I'd imagine you have to either hard-cast Ad Nauseam to find it, and have enough non-counterbalance-able mana to play Wipe Away, and then combo out, or find your single Wipe Away before Goyf beats your face.Quote:
Originally Posted by nickrit2000
In my limited experiences with the deck, beating blue (i.e. Force of Will) is not very difficult, but beating blue (i.e. Counterbalance) is the real challenge, yet I only see questions about beating generic blue on this thread. Why aren't more ANT players concerned about Counterbalance? Does this deck have any chance against a Top->Counterbalance->Goyf opening? Grip/Wipe Away is far too slow in this scenario. Seeing how this represents ~40% of the format, what's the gameplan here? emidln's 8 Red Blasts maindeck is the best plan I've seen, but aside from that I'm seeing very few answers.
My latest list.
4 Polluted Delta
2 Bloodstained Mire
3 Underground Sea
3 Swamp
1 Island
4 Dark Ritual
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
3 Chrome Mox
2 Cabal Ritual
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Mystical Tutor
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Duress
3 Pact of Negation
2 Ad Nauseam
2 Tendrils of Agony
1 Doomsday
1 Meditate
1 Wipe Away
It's a bit land-light, I want to find a way to work more land in there. Here are the changes I'm looking at:
-1 Swamp
-1 Something
+1 Scrubland
+1 Orim's Chant
all problems for ad nauseam can be solved by running 4x spell snare in the board.
LOLOL actually .... no, it really doesn't. Spell Snare does nothing about a resolved CB or CotV and does nothing against Trinisphere. Plus that is a defensive spell, combo should not play defense ever, you need to have pro-active answers. The reasons SS is terrible: you have to draw it, makes a worthless topdeck after turn 4, and it does nothing once hate cards have resolved.Quote:
Originally Posted by sauce
Well, in Vintage TPS is a highly interactive deck, but your point is entirely valid. Spell Snare reduces your relevant spell count significantly, is a terrible topdeck, and doesn't deal with stuff on the board. Wipe Away and Krosan Grip do.Quote:
LOLOL actually .... no, it really doesn't. Spell Snare does nothing about a resolved CB or CotV and does nothing against Trinisphere. Plus that is a defensive spell, combo should not play defense ever, you need to have pro-active answers. The reasons SS is terrible: you have to draw it, makes a worthless topdeck after turn 4, and it does nothing once hate cards have resolved.
If you want an adn hybrid with doomsday, drop the ponders for top. To play D-Day, they are crucial, and 4-of is more than necessary. I see no purpose to run 2x AdN in the maindeck, and even less of a purpose to play 2x Tendrils.Quote:
Originally Posted by gamegeek2
The pacts are cute, but mainly and primarily useless as they are only good if you are playing against a bad player. The have no use in the early game, and rarely will you have one in your hand to protect your Ad Nauseam. They are dead after ad nauseam since you have chants/duresses/P-Blasts which are all functionally superior to Pact. I'd go down to 3x IT and up the Mysticals to 4x.
1x Island is useless, and in my opinion should always be 2x, because Blood Moon can make your one Island useless because Wipe Away, your only answer to it after it's played, costs 2 blue mana. I know you have chrome mox and petals, but you run 8x fetches to grab basics, where only infernal tutors can grab artifacts.
You only need 1x Swamp, because that's all it takes to get going off of a ritual.
Also, I recommend picking a 3rd color, either red or white. These give a truly good 2nd protection spell, whether it's Pyroblast or Orim's Chant, and also give you more options for your SB, be it Serenity or Ancient Grudge/Shattering Spree. I'd say red as you already have mires in there. I'm playing a list that runs 4x Duress, 4x Pyroblasts, and 1x to 2x Chants in the maindeck. I play 5-c including the sb, but it's straight d-day. I did play the Hybrid for a while, and it did well enough, but I went back to D-Day because of it's ability to really shine in a control metagame. Here's what I would do with your list.
Lands--15
4 Polluted Delta
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Underground Sea
1 Badlands
1 Volcanic Island
1 Swamp
2 Island
Spells--45
4 Dark Ritual
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
2 Chrome Mox
2 Cabal Ritual
4 Brainstorm
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Mystical Tutor
3 Infernal Tutor
4 Duress
4 Pyroblast
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Doomsday
1 Meditate
1 Wipe Away
I don't understand why you didn't include an IGG in the list, so I dropped one in as it's your primary win condition against discard, and a few other lists. I hope you try this out. I think you will see the cards to better than Pact, and the numbers should be more well-rounded than your current list's.
Pce,
--DC
Oh yeah, there is an Iggy in there somewhere...if not I need to change that immediately.
You can still play white with Mires...which can grab basic Swamps as well...
2 Tendrils may not be necessary, I'm considering cutting one for a fourth Top. 2 Ad Nauseam is necessary however, it's the best path to victory...
Ad Nauseam is my last choice for my combo turn. My first is Doomsday, as I win if it resolves. Ad Nauseam does not promise the win, and drops me low in life. IGG is my second choice, as it's an auto win against anything not packing blue or chants or Extirpate, which is obviously better because against Zoo, you will be well below your beginning 20 life, and if you don't get the win (I know you almost always do) or they have a trick up their sleeve to stop your combo (example: Vial out a Teeg in response to Ad Nauseam), you either have to pass your turn and let the AdN fizzle, or you have to hope you draw a few good cards and find a way to stay alive until your next turn, PLUS you have to find a way to get around the Teeg.Quote:
Originally Posted by gamegeek2
Basic swamps are covered by your Deltas, but Mires can't fetch your Islands. I like a 4/3/1 split on my fetches Deltas/Strands/Mires respectively. I didn't say that playing white was worse than red, I simply stated that it looked like the best direction to take it because I knew you have Mires because of your list. If you want to go white, change the lands accordingly, although I must stress that red is in fact better than white in any metagame where CB is a legitimate and often-played threat.
Pce,
--DC
What I mean by first choice is that it is the easiest path to victory to set up, and if you can force it through, you can easily have enough resources to get through most defenses.
Here's my revised list:
4 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
2 Swamp
2 Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
1 Tundra
4 Mystical Tutor
4 Brainstorm
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Dark Ritual
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Duress
4 Infernal Tutor
3 Orim's Chant
3 Chrome Mox
2 Cabal Ritual
2 Ad Nauseam
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Doomsday
1 Meditate
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Wipe Away
I think I need to cut 1 card...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Misplayer
If a blue deck has a top/counterbalance/goyf openning hand, then the chances of you winning the game is very slim regardless of the deck setup. That would be there nuts hand which doesn't happen that often.
I don't understand why people talk about if they have this ('the nuts'), instead of talking about more the average hand then the best hand.
I believe the black/blue tendrils deck without LED gives you the best chance of beating blue on a consistent basis. I've proven this through playtesting and I offer it to you guys as some advice.
Many players will play the 3 or more color version with LED and Chant most likely. I just like consistency, especially now since it seems like every blue deck has wasteland in it.
I agree my version is slower than the others, but I will trade consistency over speed any day of the week.
The goal is the win the game, not to win as quickly as possible.
Have you played against aggro decks? Goblins, Merfolk, Zoo, Disruption based decks? It seems like they'll crush you because of your speed.Quote:
Originally Posted by nickrit2000