Umm? That can't happen, Jitte is Legendary :) Whoops!Quote:
Originally Posted by JediMaster012
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Umm? That can't happen, Jitte is Legendary :) Whoops!Quote:
Originally Posted by JediMaster012
Oops! Either I'm remembering slightly wrong, or there was in fact a slight play error. I think he might've just showed me the second Jitte in his hand after the second game. The game was around a month ago, so my memory is a bit hazy.Quote:
Originally Posted by troopatroop
Anyway, my point was to say that drawing the Jitte instead of burn/creatures meant that I had enough burn to keep his field clear and not even care about the Jitte at all.
Seems atypical. Yeah, jitte can sometimes not do nothing because of an empty board, but more often than not if you play it it's going to do some serious damage.
Anyone have any good SB plans for Landstill?
I mostly do -4 Kird Ape, -3 Chain Lightning +3 Choke, +3 REB, +1 Vexing Shusher(i play 2 MD,hes very very good)
this is my sideboard:
3 choke
3 REB
2 Krosan Grip
2 Pithing Needle
1 Vexing Shusher
4 Ethersworn canonist
I've been toying around with 4 Price of progress and some amount of shushers in the board, although I'm not exactly sure how well that will actually work against Landstill.
EDIT: Also, I'm trying to see if this will work as tech against Aggro Loam too.
Anyone have a plan against GB, especially GB pox? It's such a random, swingy pairing that I can't figure out how to approach it.
I've never heard of GB Pox, but if you want to beat Pox most of the time you can auto-win the matchup by running a few aether vials in your sb, or play a few horizon canopies to up your land count. You play plenty of burn to kill them.
I used to play against alot of Pox, and Compost was always my go to SB card. It's about the best card you could ask for.Quote:
Originally Posted by hungryLIKEALION
Seconded. Compost murders black decks.Quote:
Originally Posted by troopatroop
I ran this at a Mox tournament over the weekend, and went undefeated (I didn't drop a single game), splitting in the top 4.
My list and matchups: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...9&postcount=19
I would play this exact same maindeck again (for those too lazy to click the link, it's basically Alix Hatfield's list from the SCG 5K and the 40 Duals tournament, just -2 Chain Lightning, +2 Lightning Helix).
The sideboard is pretty much straight forward. The only questionable slots were Sulfuric Vortex and Orim's Chant. The Chants should be Gaddock Teegs, but I couldn't find them the morning of. Sulfuric Vortex is one of my favorite cards - it's basically Phyrexian Arena - and was for the Rock/Landstill/SlowBoardControl.dec matchup.
How did the sylvan librarires work out for you? I've really been wanting some sort of draw/card quality that's not magma jet in here =|
Also, how did the Landstill matches go? I have quite a bit of them in my meta, so I'm super worried about improving that MU, and I want to see what ended up working for you.
Sylvan Library is insane. It ensures you never run out of gas. The fact that it doesn't (directly) kill the opponent is not relevant. Like, in one of the games against Landstill, I won through triple Swords, double Wrath, and some number of Counterspell and Force simply because I eventually played Library.Quote:
Originally Posted by Valtrix
Uh, basically Sylvan Library. And Sulfuric Vortex from the Sideboard. Like, all I had to do was play one (sometimes two) threat at a time, and just hang on to the burn spells. All I had to do was wait for the opponent(s) to tap the majority of their lands for Elspeth or Humility or Wrath or whatever irrelevant spell, and then burn their face.Quote:
Also, how did the Landstill matches go? I have quite a bit of them in my meta, so I'm super worried about improving that MU, and I want to see what ended up working for you.
The issue with Landstill is that it spends too much time not doing anything, while all of your cards are must-answers. So, all you have to do is keep on the pressure, and they will not be able to deal with everything.
*edit* For the record, I should say that prior to Friday night, I hadn't played this deck at all (save for a couple MWS matches, which don't count). So, I'm just telling you what worked for me on one day at one tournament.
Krzymoose, I don't know if you were doing this, as your post did not say so specifically, but using Sylvan Library, you basically want to aggressively pay the 4 or 8 life to land additional threats quickly and even to just see the next card. This makes the deck a bit different (you are playing Helix, right? ...and plenty of 1 and 2-drops instead of Reliquary and Thoctar), but it has real potential to win by way of massive card advantage in exchange for meaningless life points against slow ass decks like Landstill.
Ddefinitely. I used to play Sylvan Library back when Flametongue Kavu was a real card.
Yeh, I usually took 8-12 damage each game from it.
i've been playing zoo for a really long time,and this is the list i think better in my metagame,which is full of blue based aggro control,no combo,no aggro except for other zoo,some control deck such as landstill/landeed are pretty popular.
Lands:21
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Windswept heath
2 Bloodstained mire
3 Taiga
2 Plateau
1 Savannah
3 Horizon canopy
1 Mountain
1 Forest
1 Plains
Creatures:22
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Wild Nacatl
3 Knight of the reliquary
3 Figure of destiny
Spells:17
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Chain lightning
3 Path to exile
3 Price of progress
2 Umezawa's jitte
2 Fireblast
Sideboard:
4 Vexing shusher
4 Pithing needle
3 Krosan grip
4 Gaddock teeg
I think figure is the best cc1 drop (except nacatl maybe) vs aggr control/control,if they play a chalice or countertop after you play figure,you can still use your mana to have a big beater.Price of progress is another card i think is great:In a metagame with lots of nonbasic is massive,but sometimes it is useless,sometimes hurts me more than the opponent.
Do you think this list is good for the metagame i described before?or i should change something?(maybe switch jitte for sylvan library,price for lightning helix or anything else)
I tried Sylvan Library a bit and was impressed. Did you ever consider putting 3 in the deck? If not, can you tell me why?Quote:
Originally Posted by KrzyMoose
I'm currently looking at the Hatfield take on Zoo (Library, Knight of the Reliquary, etc.). I'm finding it quite interesting, looks like a version of Zoo that doesn't empty it's hand on turn 4 and keeps putting pressure.
There's some card choice that I understand, but also some that I find more weird. I'm in no way a Zoo expert, so if a more experienced user of this deck could enlighten me about card choices, it would be appreciated!
Sylvan Library : Great draw engine if you're ahead on life, make sure you don't run out of gas, can hide key cards to discard decks, etc. Why 2? I understand that's because you NEVER want to see 2 of them in a single game.
Knight of the Reliquary : That's the first I'm skeptical about. There's no land toolbox to fetch into (except Canopy), it costs 3, starts usually smaller than Goyf, is in 2 colors. Is it's synergy with Horizon Canopy worth it (fetch Canopy, sac Canopy = +1 card, +2/+2)? Or is it just a way to vary CMC to bypass CB/Top.
Horizon Canopy : Can't be fetched into, pings you. Probably good with Knight on the other hand, and can be used to see another card. Any other use I'm not aware of?
Lightning Helix : Seems quite intuitive here. Gain some life lost via Canopy/Library. Great in the mirror. But why 2? I would put 4 of them, probably cutting Price of Progress. It lets you use your Library much more.
Price of Progress : Why maindeck, considering that's it's far more likely to harm us than our opponent. In the side, it could be good against slow deck with nonbasics (Landstill), but it seems like suicide with all our nonbasic + Library + Canopy.
Path to Exile : This one seems quite intuive, to kill bigger creatures like Goyf or an unanswered Lorescale Coalt. Lets you keep your burn to send to the player, or simply not waste 2 burns on 1 creature. Is 4 the good number? I'm thinking more about 3.
That's it for my questions. Any answer would be appreciated. I'll probably test the deck Tuesday. I'll come back with more questions and maybe some answers!
I'll try and answer these to the best of my knowledge, since they seem fairly straightforward to me:
The explanation I got was thus: Zoo is a hyper-aggressive deck whose sole consideration is toward the early game. Any cards not fitting that criteria need to offer a disproportionately massive advantage in the mid/late game to offset the opportunity cost of the early game spell they replace.Quote:
Originally Posted by Seb
From that, I would say it's logical to assume 2 is the best number because you're unlikely to draw multiples, you leave maximum space for important early game spells and you will probably draw one by or around the time you need it.
This is an open slot previously filled by Woolly Thoctar- he's not competing with goyf, so the comparison is mute. Most sourcers prefer Knight because he's fucking massive by midgame and he's less color intensive than Thoctar. But, he also takes longer to get online and has dissynergy with Lavamancer. Me, I'm about 50/50 at this point. I tend to switch them back and forth pretty often.Quote:
Knight of the Reliquary : That's the first I'm skeptical about. There's no land toolbox to fetch into (except Canopy), it costs 3, starts usually smaller than Goyf, is in 2 colors. Is it's synergy with Horizon Canopy worth it (fetch Canopy, sac Canopy = +1 card, +2/+2)? Or is it just a way to vary CMC to bypass CB/Top.
Many pages back, Alix Hatfield posted probably the most brilliant explanation for this card I've read. I highly suggest finding it and reading it. I used to run 0. After reading his post and subsequent testing, I now swear by 3. If it produced red I would run 4 and be sad I couldn't have more. One of the most useful lands in the deck bar none.Quote:
Horizon Canopy : Can't be fetched into, pings you. Probably good with Knight on the other hand, and can be used to see another card. Any other use I'm not aware of?
This is untrue. Zoo can function entirely off of 3 lands (its basics), which can be fetched (and in so doing, pumping Knight and removing themselves from PoP's area of affect). Every competitive deck in Legacy runs nonbasics and almost all of them are more dependent. I rarely take more than 4 (sometimes 6) damage in exchange for 10-12 on my opponent. Probably my favorite topdeck and the card which most often leads to a game win.Quote:
Price of Progress : Why maindeck, considering that's it's far more likely to harm us than our opponent. In the side, it could be good against slow deck with nonbasics (Landstill), but it seems like suicide with all our nonbasic + Library + Canopy.
IsThisACatInAHat? pretty much hit the nail on the head, but I'll add my own thoughts.
Knight is better than Thoctar (as ITACIAH? said, those slots are usually between those two cards) for a couple of reasons. More than half of the lands in the deck will eventually end up in the Graveyard - 9 fetches and 3 Canopy. So, more often than not, KotR is a HUGE/HUGE, whereas Thoctar can only ever be a 5/4. Also, you can't BEB Knight, and it's usually hard to Counterbalance him. Also, he can't be Threads of Disloyalty'ed.Quote:
Knight of the Reliquary : That's the first I'm skeptical about. There's no land toolbox to fetch into (except Canopy), it costs 3, starts usually smaller than Goyf, is in 2 colors. Is it's synergy with Horizon Canopy worth it (fetch Canopy, sac Canopy = +1 card, +2/+2)? Or is it just a way to vary CMC to bypass CB/Top.
I wouldn't say that he has dissynergy with Lavamancer, necessarily. I mean, sure, they can sometimes clash, but it's usually not relevant, and you usually have enough gas in your Graveyard to fuel Lavamancer, anyway.
KotR has INSANE synergy with Fireblast, though.
I would not run more than two for this reason: Helix is pretty much the worst card in the deck. You don't need more, and you really don't want more, 3 damage burn than you already have. I mean, yes it helps buffer your life total a little, but that's usually pretty irrelevant.Quote:
Lightning Helix : Seems quite intuitive here. Gain some life lost via Canopy/Library. Great in the mirror. But why 2? I would put 4 of them, probably cutting Price of Progress. It lets you use your Library much more.
You are the Aggro deck. You're life total should be higher than the opponent's. I would gladly pay 6 life to kill my opponent.Quote:
Price of Progress : Why maindeck, considering that's it's far more likely to harm us than our opponent. In the side, it could be good against slow deck with nonbasics (Landstill), but it seems like suicide with all our nonbasic + Library + Canopy.
Every deck (for the most part) runs Tarmogoyf, Dreadnought, or Tombstalker (or some other giant guy). You want to get them out of the way. Path let's you do it without giving your opponent life. Now, there was (and probably still is) a debate over whether or not Path was better than Swords. I think that you should just run whatever you want to, but I will say that Path's drawback is rarely relevant in this format.Quote:
Path to Exile : This one seems quite intuive, to kill bigger creatures like Goyf or an unanswered Lorescale Coalt. Lets you keep your burn to send to the player, or simply not waste 2 burns on 1 creature. Is 4 the good number? I'm thinking more about 3.