Printable View
You will come back to the goose when you face StP, Abrupt Decay and Lightning Bolt. I´ve tested this new RUG and your threats are removed again and again, you usually loose the chance to use Spell Pierce and Stifle effectively because of YP´s cost, Daze is worse... So strange feelings. Look at the video i have put and similar and you´ll change your opinion.Quote:
Originally Posted by ShiftyKapree
playtested HM list with stubborn denial.. just a few games with my friends, coz what they really want is a playtest vs my super fast uginfect deck..
list (- 4 monggose, + hmandrils, - 3 pierces + 3 Sdenials, - 1fice and 2 forked + 3 tarfires)
didnt tweaked anything else, im tired of switching pieces on my decks : )
vs UR cruise (3-0)
land light and relies heavily on cantrips for them to draw lands,or something essential, once i was able to stifle his 2nd land, stuck a goyf, he never got back..
we never side boarded coz he left early after just pickng up some cards..
with ROUGH, itll provide me great help vs resolved YP, 3 pyroblasts should take care of delvers, cruises.. taylor swift will surely have problems vs kingkong and goyfy..
after that, i decided to switch back 2 pierces main - 2 sdenials..
4-2 without sbs, 3-1 with sbs
HM was a faster clock vs goose, i sided out 3 goyfs as my plan is just to stick 1 threat.. made me confident on just tapping 1 land to drop a clock, our vendilion in the side will be instant, so i always was able to counter when he's about to goo off, he told me after the game that i provided a faster clock, if it shld have been a goose, he might be able to buy more time...
tests however didnt prove anything yet except that it goes well vs unfair...
will test it further vs stp.decs...
When you play Rug with YP, you play a more control style, I never play YP unless I have 3 mana available which I do most of the time. If goose was still good it would be still top 8ing and keeping us as a Tier 1 deck. I've been playing the game for a long long time and treasure cruise is basically an ancestral recall for this deck and fuels the fire. And Abrupt Decay and STP have always been a problem for us. You can't play the game in fear of those, they are known threats and you have to play it out.Quote:
Originally Posted by SORO
I don't think this can be concluded so easily.Quote:
Originally Posted by ShiftyKapree
Whenever there is an impact of new strategies in the metagame, it is very common for people to change decks based on theory only. It happened when DRS became ubiquitous, it happened again after Owen Turtenwald won the GP with TNN Delver Blade and it is happening again with TC.
In all these past cases, the common consensus was that Canadian was obsolete, because DRS, TNN or whatever was an insourmountable obstacle for our strategy. What we saw was a reduction of RUG presence of top 8, after all most people will not play a deck they think will not perform well. However, Canadian Threshold was still a viable deck, and players start to pick the deck again and get results with it.
Maybe, this time it is different and our deck can't keep up with the new TC meta without significant changes. But it is still too early to be certain of this. To wrap it up, what I wanted to say is the current results of "new RUG" (no goose) compared to "classic RUG" is more probable to be from RUG players changing their decks preemptively, and does not necessarily reflects the viability of Nimble Mongoose in the current metagame. Also, it is possible that RUG players jumped on the UR bandwagon, as it has already happened in the past with BUG Delver and UWR Delver.
I need to agree with the above post.
While wbw might or might not be right about jumping on the UR wagon, there's no question about the fact that it's too soon to make any conclusions about Treasure Cruise, its viability, and the effect on Canadian Thresh (or the metagame at all); it's out not even month. I believe that most of the people that abandoned the RUG camp are simply trying the new toys, which isn't bad, unreasonable or surprising approach. Treasure Cruise, being an Ancestral Recall proxy in a cantrips color, is a solid spell (maybe broken) and it's really tempting. However, it's nothing new (we got CA tools in Legacy, though different) and although the closest analogy to TC are Ancestral Vision (a card that needs setup), Standstill (dead affair), Loam/Confidant (not one-shot draws, but rather real engines), it's not like we're facing some novel thing when we need to address an opposing CA tools. RUG fought with any CA.dec in past and it was able to remain in DTB/Established section for years. TC is no different than say AV - except for nigh zero need for setup, the card simply wants you to play MtG -, and it's suspectible to the very same (or similar) cards as we used to fight AV, Standstill or w/e the card with blue drop in its manacost.
REB is already well established sb material that helps us against some the most annoying or dangerous cards that we may face. Be it TC, CB, TNN or even JTMS, all those cards fail the REB test and I personally fear CB/TNN much more than TC, as I may win against CA, but I cannot do the same against (c)lock... which is btw a perfect example of virtual CA where my cards simply don't matter anymore.
So UR pilot resolved TC? And what? Chances are he won't be able to do much with them. All of his threats are tiny and that's the only thing that's important, because once I got rid of them (and I will get rid of them; remember, except for Swiftspear they're not greater than x/2), no amount of additional cantrip-into-cantrip shenaningans may reverse the match result. Unless the opponents chains TC after TC (which is quite unlikely due to a pressure on his own gy and some cards in our hand), it's not impossible to win on the backs of our better creatures, of whom the Mongoose has that amazing ability known as shroud, that blanks all the removal that all the TCs might bring.
Look, I'm not saying TC is bad. I'm not even saying that it's not broken, because chances are that it is. All I'm saying is that I don't fear the card. It's not Ancestral Recall and it's played in the most blue format in existence, where the Blasts of a proper color are common sb cards already. Mongoose, being a creature that doesn't need any special protective measures, makes it possible to concentrate on the opposing threats, CA/CQ engines and lock/Waste attempts, which any other dude simply cannot. Barring Liliana and similar stuff, there's not much to get rid of Mongoose, and there's hardly any creature as resilient (and cheap) as mongoose. And if the Mandrills catch up, I expect an increased numbers of Submerges which conveniently get rid of both the ape and Goyf.
In fact I'm much more afraid of TC/DTT dedicated control decks which may have much more tools for CA and also a gameplan and cards to overwhelm RUG. I am yet to see such a decklist, but I think that something might be done in Miracles development, or maybe we'll see some really new Ux control. Anyway, this is what might worsen our situation, as grindy matchups are hardly in our favor, esp. if the opposing deck is stable and has no real color requirements issues. But cantrip-cantrip-cantrip-cantrip-draw3 is not what I'm afraid of, as I won my share of games against cantrip-cantrip-cantrip-cantrip-draw21. Yep, the "decks not fighting on similar axes" and all that jazz. Trust me, I know that I cannot easily compare UR Landstill with ANT with Loam.dec with Enchantress, but hey, we've defeated CA deck after CA deck in past and we'll be doing it in the future.
And what's the point, or better said, what has Mongoose to do with this? Well, it's resilient threat, big enough for it's cmc and one that needs zero protection. It relieves the pressure we've otherwise been under as it simply cannot be removed at least by the tools that the most recent TC aggro-control decks have available; emphasis on the "aggro" part of the phrase. This allows us to concentrate on the dangerous cards our opponents might play, without much need to take care of what we're tapping during "508. Declare Attackers Step".
Also, the TC decks I faced so far don't play Stifle and UR Brun don't even pack (full set of) Wastelands. As long as I don't need to protect neither my manabase nor 4/12 of my dudes, I'm fine with the matchup. Good luck doing anything reasonable with your draw3 once I'll StifleWaste your part of table into nothingness...
I agree with this, the replacement creatures are fragile and seem like a "win more" type of card. But, using Treasure Cruise seems to be a double edged sword: It is awesome to reload an empty hand and cast a threat with a counter back-up and/or burn, but the Mongoose becomes a 1/1 and isn't really a threat anymore.Quote:
Originally Posted by SORO
This evening I tested a few different configurations out, and I think that Treasure Cruise is awful as a 3-4 of. You never want it early, and multiples just sit in your hand (hopefully you can pitch one to FOW) for a while. You lose your tempo plan. It seems like as a 2 of you draw it when you want to reload your hand, and the graveyard can take the hit without shrinking Goyf too much (3 or 4 power usually). Unfortunately the Goose almost always becomes a 1/1...
Since it only took a few games for me to dislike how easy it is to remove Young Pyromancer, I searched for Shroud/Hexproof/untargetable 3+ power creatures and found this guy: Scythe Tiger 3/2, casting cost of G, Shroud, sac a land when he comes into play.
It seems like a bad idea to sac your own lands when you only have 18 in the deck, but Scythe Tiger is 3 power right away with no waiting for threshold. The deck only needs 2-3 land to run OK, so you can probably afford to sac a couple. I swapped Mongoose out for the Tiger, and he definitely sucks as a 4 of. Same problem as Treasure Cruise in multiples, it sits in your hand for a while until you can afford to lose a land. I went down to 3, and he works pretty well. Aggressive starts attacking for 3 on turn two are consistent whether it's with the Tiger or Delver.
Going up to 19 land would probably help to avoid getting blown out by Wasteland decks. What are your thoughts? Has anyone else tried this cat out?
@woj: cat is good, as it fuels delve that goose has issues with.. if it's a 3/3 i would test it.. ROUGH is just a very good sb card now vs elves, elemental tokens, dnts, etc.. and that i can't cut for the cat.
hi guys!
after one year i take back Mongoose! :laugh: and after some testig i used her in a tournament....and i won, and won another little tournament and i was undefeated in swiss! :tongue:
the list is this:
2 Treasure Cruise
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Brainstorm
2 Tarmogoyf
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Ponder
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Wasteland
3 Volcanic Island
3 Tropical Island
2 Young Pyromancer
2 Burst Lightning
3 Spell Snare
4 Stifle
3 Nimble Mongoose
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
1 Sylvan Library
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 Pyroblast
SB: 3 Submerge
SB: 1 Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 Flusterstorm
SB: 2 Spell Pierce
SB: 1 Electrickery
the first thing you could say is: goose and TC in the same deck? :eek: yes!
the only thing i would say is... TRY IT!!!! you'll see that goose will get threshold one or 2 turn after the cruise! and the gain of draw 3 is more than +2+2!
the second choice i did is spell snare over spell pierce.....here snare fit very well...stops some cards who are very strong against us...i mean: tarmo, stoneforge, balance, rip....and the new guy! Young P.
Quote:
Originally Posted by B88
I'm a big Fan of your list, i will give it a try :)
I think your list is strong, but I disagree with 4 stifle, 3 daze. In your list, I'd 100% prefer 4 daze, 3 stifle due to being so tapout, compared to otherwise. Also, Jung Pyromannen wants you to play proactive, something daze suits way better than Old Goyf.Quote:
Originally Posted by B88
maybe you right but this choice i made it because:Quote:
Originally Posted by Quasim0ff
1) if an oppo open with snaman (and you don't have bolt) your daze looks you and say "oh perfect!" :cry:
2) in a meta with remuval with cc1 and also wrath with cc1 i prefer stifle over daze....
thx anyway for the advice!
that is what i think now....with this list i won 3 game against miracle :eek:
Hey Guys,
i'm a rug player from Germany. I also think, that goose is better then HM or TC.
@B88
Your lists looks great. I will try it. Can you answer my following Questions please:
Why did you play Burst Lightning over cards like Forked Bolt, Chain Lightning or Tarfire?
I think tarfire is better, because it power ups our goyfs. FB and CL are Sorcerys, but does it matter?
thank you very much :)
thx :tongue:
1) yes is because they are sorcery. in this meta i don't want tap out! also sometimes happen that you have young and one open and in hand you have counter/stifle and remuval...i don't want make a choice in my turn, i preferer stay open and see what my oppo do. also burst could be kicked! :cool: (yes it happen more then one time)
2)yes tarfire makes goyfs big but also the opponent's tarmos! and we play just 2 of them not the playset, and also, if goyf become 5/6 we can't block with goose and kill with burst! :frown:
Thank you very much :>
For those running the Young Pyromancer builds, can you explain to me why sylvan library is good in the sideboard? Also what is everyone playing in their sideboards these days?
I took RUG delver to a 6-2 (21st) finish in oakland. I almost didnt go because I had been preparing with RUG delver, and then treasure cruise came along and shook my confidence in that build of delver. I saw B88's post, however, and got some playtesting in with a build featuring mongoose and the cruise, and decided to go.
my build was:
54x core
+2 spell snare
+1 Spell pierce
+1 Fire//Ice
+1 Forked Bolt
+2 Treasure Cruise
-1 Nimble Mongoose
The deck works great. Goose and cruise almost never get in each others way, and mongoose is absolutely fantastic in this environment. I definitely won more games because of goose than cruise, but cruise gave me more leg in games which went longer than id like.
Wins were against: elves, ur delver, sneak and show, merfolk, pox, and burn.
Both of my losses were against maverick (one dark, one not). Both those matches went to three games.
I may write up a longer report later, but I just wanted to thank B88 for helping me get over the goose/cruise conundrum (which turns out is not actually a conundrum), and let everyone know that goose is still solid.
Hello,
congratulation to your nice finish. Did you play 4 goyf or 2goyf and 2pyromancer?
can you post your sb please.
thanx
i'm very proud to hear this! :eek::eek::wink::wink:Quote:
Originally Posted by sea
i would see you in top8 next time!!!! anyway also here i could see that the deck works well...i'm just perplexedm abut the side, i'm not sure about some choiches i've made. which side did you use?
anyway all the best my mogoose's friend! :tongue:
4 goyf. Im not sold on pyromancer in this deck. I think its a good card, but it doesnt replace mongoose because they are two very different cards with very different purposes in the deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kainemyte
pyromancer is definitely more comparable to goyf, but a lot ogf times a 4/5 is going to do things for you that a 2/1 and a bunch of 1/1s cant, and the goyf is much less susceptible to red removal, and only a little bit more susceptible to other removal.
The sideboard I went with, which I dont think is ideal, was somewhat affected by reports from my friends who played in the smaller legacy event on saturday, telling me that tournament was completely saturated with storm decks. I ran:
2x rough//tumble
1x grafdigger's cage
2x submerge
2x REB
1x pyroblast
2x vendillion clique
1x spell pierce
1x scavenging ooze
1x flusterstorm
2x ancient grudge
I used to have 3 submerges in the board, and in hindsight, id probably go back up to 3 (due to the double maverick loss). Ooze was the mvp out of the board. Im pretty sure I wouldve lost my ur delver matchup without him, and he helped me win against burn. Rough makes the elves matchup a breeze, and was pretty decent against the aforementioned ur delver. I borrowed the cliques for the event and hadnt played them before. I was underwhelmed. The only time they got used was as FoW fodder. I probably didnt see the decks they shine against, however, and may just not have been using them appropriately due to inexperience.
5 1/1's > 1 4/5. Especially, when that 4/5 doesn't have trample.Quote:
Originally Posted by sea