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It screws up their terminus/counterbalance sequencing.
Edit: I was reading through the other G/B/X decklists and noticed that Garruk Relentless is a pretty strong vs. Miracles. It doesn't get easily countered by Miracles, is very hard to remove, and also helps tutor for Hexmage.
I have trouble seeing this, I might be missing something.Quote:
Originally Posted by jdmdave
If we consider most miracle lists hardly play creatures it's very hard to flip Garruk. Then if we want the tutor effect we need to sac a creature. So we have to be hardcasting Elvish Spirit Guide. Our other creature is already Hexmage, so no need to tutor it if we already have it...
Looking forward to your explanation.
I have done a lot of testing over the weekend with Sphere and Chalice and i personally tought about cutting them completely.
My SB would look like this:
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Choke
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Surgical Extraction
1 Pithing Needle
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Maze of Ith/GQ(I think it will be GQ)
1 Karakas
Generally i would play Shpere over Chalice, but the only thing it stops is Storm. I whished for Cage so often, against Miracles Choke is great.
What are your thoughts?
For mainly the same reason that Gideon is awesome vs. control decks - the ability to create a constant stream of bears while dodging terminus/path. Moreover, modern miracle lists do play mentor and Garruk also has strong utility in the DnT matchup.Quote:
Originally Posted by Motto82
If you're truly aimed only at Miracles, then you could try Slaughter Games (with Lotus Petal or a single Badlands) to extract either win cons or Swords/Terminus.
I bought into this deck this past weekend since I had most of it, but I also picked up 2x Lost Legacy. From what I can tell, this deck can only be stopped by very few cards in a given matchup. Pushing out an Extraction on turn 3 followed by natural turn 4 Marit seems fine to me.
Let me know how lost legacy works out for you. I'm a fan of extraction effects vs. control decks, but I know they are very much YMMV.
Ok Miracles.
There are 3 versions, Legendary, "Regular" and Predictable. I have practiced the most against legendary which is basically what Joe Lossett plays. I played against predictable in the finals at EW and drew against a more regular build with mentors in the Legacy Trial before the main event.
My main feeling with Miracles is you cannot rush the match unless you want to straight gamble if they have a Swords and/or terminus if they have a top. There is a sweet-spot in the game to try and go off. Game 1, if we are unknown, we have a slight advantage because they might not realize that they are going to get combo'd quickly or that NoTW is a thing in our deck. I caught, many, many people by surprise with that card including seasoned players. Miracles will not put pressure on us, so we have time to develop out our board and get some protection for the combo. My other big thing with miracles, is accept the fact that you will likely have to make marit more than once. Which is where chalice is good. I'll mention that below.
The single most important card in miracles is the top. They can function without it, but it really turbo charges the deck. I will always try to keep that off the field or inactivate it with pithing needle. Doing that essentially takes terminus out of play for stopping the combo. I feel like if I can land a needle on top, I am way ahead in the game. Game 1 they have 1 way to deal with it, and post-board they have 3 cards (Council's Judgement and wear//tear).
Assuming I get top offline, my next goal is to see them tap out, unlikely, or get them floating 1 white with NoTW back up. I feel like the sweet spot for this is turn 4-5. The tricky part with miracles is given enough time they will find their answers and essentially lock you out. So you just get a sense when they are kind of vulnerable. Now, if you get hit by Swords, remember you just gained 20 life, and unless they find Entreat, they basically said they need to kill you twice. Yet another reason to try to turn off top. This gives you time to drop basic beaters like ESG and Hexmage. If they are foolish enough to Swords them, fine, less answers for your combo. I believe in game 2 in the finals, Daniel essentially had to kill me 3 times over, which again gives time to find the combo.
Another tactic I like against miracles is make them use their forces. It just empties their hand, which is how miracles gets weak. Also realize the sweet spot to use crop rotation is after a brainstorm or ponder. They are down a blue card from their hand and likely can't pull off the force. It is a great way to setup the combo when they are caught off guard.
Some specific things they can do, if they are good, that will really make you sad. At the start of combat, Clique to discard your NoTW followed by Swords. Or Clique themselves to reveal terminus. The legends version can use Venser to bounce Marit Lage. Then use Karakas to return Venser to their hand. I think this is the hardest version to play against, since they have 2 Karakas, 4 Swords, 4 Terminus, 2 Venser and 2-3 Clique and 2ish Snaps.
Blood moon is just blood moon. It is gross and honestly doesn't seem like it sees a ton of play right now. But fetching basics is good here. I normally side out 6/8 fast mana in games 2 and 3 (Counter Balance showing a land against Petal feels bad) and I am not trying to rush the combo. Krosan grip is better here just because only needs 1 green, but abrupt works better.
The sideboard cards I used against them were Chalice x4, Needle x1, Crucible, Winter Orb, Abrupt Decay x3 and Surgical Extraction x3 (on the play) IIRC. Crucible is very nice against miracles. 3cmc is a weird spot for them. They only have a few cards at that casting cost, so you can normally sneak that through. If you get it in play, chain GQ or Chaining the combo is just murder for them. They will not be able to keep up. Extraction is a good way to look at their hand and see if the coast is clear and a good way to look through their deck to see what answers they have or took out. I know some miracles players take out terminus. Winter orb I think would be good here, but I have never actually gotten it in play against them. Makes top much worse, which is good for us.
@DNSolver
I think you want needles. I am of the opinion that if top goes offline, you are winning. Top is good for us, but much better for them. And hoping that you nab it with turn 1 discard seems risky. NoTW is an answer to Karakas which, outside of needle and GQ, we don't have many of, especially nothing we can hide in our hand. I think 3 is about right since we can't tutor it, but 2 + more libraries might not be a bad though. Turn 1 library is a strong strong play. I run 7 discard and I think it is fine. So my thoughts on drownyard is it disrupts them, but does it break their inevitability? And eventually you get into the game of did I put good cards on top or bad cards and you enter a game within a game. But it does synergize well with surgical. As I said above, I have tested it, but in the long game it could be really good. I have also been debating choke as specific miracles hate, but a second GQ might do the trick.
What are your thoughts on chalice vs sphere? Yes, chalice shuts off their entire draw engine, but we also lose access to needle, tseize, duress. 2nd, thoughts on grip vs crucible vs garruk vs liliana vs 3cmc nissa? Miracles has a hell of a time beating a resolved planeswalker
As for sideboarding, it seems like the di rigeuer approach is as follows:
Out: -4 ESG, -4 Petal, -4 sylvan/into the north
In: +3 Decay, +4 Sphere/chalice, +1 Needle, +3/4 Surgical, +0-1 Hate Piece.
Well..I have thoroughly killed myself with a poorly played chalice. Sphere feels much much better vs ANT, B/R reanimator and fast combo decks in general. Maybe? better against D&T. I feel like chalice on the play is strong against Miracles as it turns off their engine and a good chunk of their answers against us. But then again sphere makes daze and FoW feel bad.
So, it is kind of a meta call. I haven't really played that much with sphere, but it did some work against burn. I guess against any deck that is trying to race sphere is better. It looks like people are doing well with sphere. I am currently trying that out online. I think I want to jam another GQ truth be told. It just did so much work for me.
I didn't share this earlier, but I slow played a lands deck at EW in game 3 and utterly dismantled it with Surgical, GQ and Crucible.
Basically I keep a sketchy hand, but it has 2 surgicals. I manage to hit a gamble and saw the land combo in their hand. They play loam, I surgical it, knowing I have a GQ in my hand. I top deck another surgical and pass. They go for the combo, I crop rotation my bayou into karakas, surgical their depths and bounce merit. I play my GQ and get crucible into play. Next turn I GQ my own karakas to get green mana, replay the GQ and sylvan scry to get a stage and start the roll. When necessary I was able to bring the GQ back and hit all their utility lands. Eventually found the combo and protected it against his karakas with NoTW.
Long story short, I like the GQ-crucible combo.
***Edit: Oh against miracles I keep 2 ESG in. Sometimes the surprise mana is handy and don't over look a 10 turn clock :laugh:
I'd be pretty interested to hear your thoughts on sideboarding +/-. I'm playing GP chiba and still haven't totally nailed down a g2/g3 strategy vs the tier 1/2 decks. My Maindeck is pretty much set aside from testing a 1x sylvan library vs a 3rd into the north.
I think we are basically all in agreement that a sideboard of 4 chalice or sphere, 3 decay, 1 karakas, 1 ith, 0-1 not of this world, 0-1 GQ (2nd one), 4th pithing needle, 3-4 surgical, 1x flex crucible/grip/drownyard is pretty close, right?
Mini report from baltimore this weekend I didnt take great notes and never won a single die roll. I played the following:
4 mox diamond
4 hexmage
4 bstorm
4 crop rotation
4 sylvan scrying
4 thought seize
3 pithing needle
3 notw
1 duress
1 iok
4 stage
4 depths
4 urborg
3 bayou
1 snow covered forest
4 verdant
2 misty
1 usea
1 trop
1 seriji step
1 b bog
2 ghost quarter
1 sylvan library
1 lftl
3 decay
3 pierce
1 karakas
1 needle
1 grip
1 Dread of night
3 surgical
-Rnd 1 W dredge 2-1
He wins the die roll and proceeds to present me the nut draw G1.
G2 I rotate for bog with his narcomeobas on the stack he cant recover
G3 I extract his ichorids and catch 3 of his bridges making a token with hex mage T3
-Rnd 2 L goblin prison 0-2
He wins the die roll I keep a hand of usea trop depths brainstorm thoughts seize needle scrying. He goes t1 chalice t2 magus. I decide to scoop only showing him usea thinking he'll misboard. He puts me on grixis and misboards.
G2 I put him on painter and mull to a 5 card hand with a fetch, stage, scrying, discard and a needle for grindstone. I lead with forest into needle on grindstone. He plays t1 rabblemaster. I tutor depths. He plays a t2 rabblemaster and out races me
-Rnd 3 W miracles 2-0
I rarely take notes at all when playing miracles as it is already a time consuming experience but I specifically made note that g1 was stolen when he cliqued my notw only for it to be replaced with notw allowing me to force the token through his plow and rotate into pro blue.
G2 double notw forces through the kill.
-Rnd 4 W jund 2-0
Functionally a bye he hymned me g1 and missed the important pieces.
G2 he prevented the t3 kill by trying to eat my hex mage with lily but he kamakazed her back allowing me to kill t4 with the third land drop.
-Rnd 5 L miracles 1-2 phillip braverman
Not really much to say here other then I played tight and couldnt get there.
G1 he swords the first token after forcing my notw then locks me out.
G2 I make a fast token and my protection holds up.
G3 he jaces me to death at 52 life.
-Rnd 6 L storm 0-2
G1 he leads on tropical into top i needle top and die to a T2 ad nauseum.
G2 i punt hard. T1 ts shows a weak 6 i take his tutor and leave him with some rituals and an uncastable cantrip T2 I'm faced with the choice of holding up double pierce or playing hex mage off a diamond and an usea with depths in play and hoping he doesnt peel exactly ad nauseum... oh well
-Rnd 7 W miracles 2-0
G1 a quick token gets there
G2 is long and grindy we go time he graciously conceeds in turns to my loaming after having most of his interaction needled or extracted knowing eventually id get there and that he used most of the clock. I give him a smores bar after over hearing him and his friend disscussing hunger pains like a true agent of karma...
-Rnd 8 L bug delver 0-2
G1 I mull to 4 just to see a land. he leads off with deathrite into triple delver...
G2 I mull to 5 as my day two hopes get hymmed away
-Rnd 9 L miracles 0-2
He jaces me to death both games after having every answer to everything. By far the fastest miracle player I have ever encountered. Literally in aw of how fluidly he performed the motions. He did manage to 4 card ponder at one point he called a judge and i took the fourth card without looking at the top three even tho the judge said i had the right to shuffle away my choice even tho the ordering was preserved and we were both in agreement.
4-5 in matches 9-11 in games not the greatest performance but im happy for a first outing with the deck.
Take aways on the weekend:
NOTW, library, and loam over performed. Dread of night, grip and B storm underpreformed.
I had my depths extracted twice during the day both times by miracles players once prior to them taking lethal just for information and once to lock me out of the game.
I did however learn an interaction with DD and blood moon I was not previously aware of from a judge after my goblin stompy match. I did not know that once blood moon resolves DD retains its status as a legendary snow land allowing you to play a second DD that will enter the battle field with 0 counters enabling you to sac the one with counters to the legend rule, leaving you essentially with a token just waiting for blood moon to leave the field.
Regardless I got meet a variety of people all on slightly different versions including a spicy midrange list with intuition.
Moving forward I'd like to look into trying a straight G/B list with MD loam and library. Starting here:
4 esg
4 lotus petal
4 hexmage
4 crop rotation
4 sylvan scrying
2 ittn
1 loam
1 library
4 ts
1 iok
1 dures
3 pithing needle
2 notw
4 dark depths
4 thespian stage
4 urborg
3 bayou
4 catacombs
1 snowforest
1 snowswamp
2 ghost quarter
1 sejiri step
1 b bog
1 boseju
1 karakas
3 surgical
4 decay
1 library
3 chalice
1 notw
1 needle
Quote:
Originally Posted by ComplexPants
that is some extensive and very helpful insight. Thanks!
:confused:Quote:
I did however learn an interaction with DD and blood moon I was not previously aware of from a judge after my goblin stompy match. I did not know that once blood moon resolves DD retains its status as a legendary snow land allowing you to play a second DD that will enter the battle field with 0 counters enabling you to sac the one with counters to the legend rule, leaving you essentially with a token just waiting for blood moon to leave the field.
Well, that is interesting and something to keep in mind, especially if you are hanging onto an abrupt decay or something.
That is not correct, for the same reason why any lands that say, "enter the battlefield tapped" still enter tapped even under Blood Moon. My guess is that this Judge mistook Dark Depths as having an enter's the battlefield trigger, as opposed to the replacement effect that modifies how it enters the battlefield which it actually does. Of course, once you know how Dark Depths works, it makes no sense that the Ice Counters could be placed as a trigger, since then the card would combo with Stifle.Quote:
Originally Posted by uncletiggy
The judge is of course correct that Dark Depths would still be a Legenday Snow Land however and that the "Legend Rule" will still apply if you play a second one. However, the part about it not coming in with Ice Counters is flatly incorrect.
That sounds much more reasonable and how I thought it originally worked, I should have just asked the head judge when I was instructed otherwise...
Trust your instincts, :cool:Quote:
Originally Posted by uncletiggy
Also, I believe you are well within your rights to ask for a clarification if something seems off. Judges aren't infallible though, solid knowledge of the rules is definitely a benefit to you and your opponent, even the judge themselves too. But as you say, an appeal to the Head Judge probably would have been the best route here.
Quick Question. I have a single Bayou. Would it be possible for me to mix Andrieg's Blooming Marsh mana base with a Bayou and some amount of fetches? If so, what would be the optimal ratio of fetch/bayou/marsh. I only have the khans fetches by the way, so no verdant catacombs.
I'm running the following manabase and its been awesome. Basically the same formula used by Jund/Abzan in Modern to minimize life loss to shocklands/CIP tapped fastlands.
* 1 Bayou
* 2 Verdant
* 2 Snow
* 3 Utility
* 12 Combo
* 3 Blooming Marsh
If you don't have verdants you are going to want to run a green fetch. Green is the most imports for all your tutor effects. Urborg helps out with black, but you really need to utilize crop rotations for surprise wins.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vervandi
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Does that only leave you with 7 green sources? Is that enough?Quote:
Originally Posted by jdmdave
Will do. I expect at some point in the next couple of years Verdants will surely get a reprint, then I will pick them up.Quote:
Originally Posted by ComplexPants