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Imo the horrible synergy of Stalker and Bob is the ONLY reason he should not be put in this deck. I don't think he conflicts with the game plan at all. He is big, he flies, and can be played relatively early. I think if we could somehow summon Mr. Stalker and Mrs. Gator into the real world... they would hit it off real well and go out for a cup of coffee. Great Synergy. Of course Bob would be jealous and well you get the picture.
I run 18 creatures... that's my magic number for a build that doesn't run the 1cc zombies. The first 4 sets are an easy choice: what's the remaining 5th creature? Lets assume here I choose to stick to mono-black.
My feasible options:
Beaters
Tombstalker
Oona's Prowler
Stromgald Crusader/Order of the Ebon Hand
Hate
Yixlid Jailer
Plague Spitter
Artifact Damage
The Rack
Cursed Scroll
*I'll accept these as possible options because they're good damage sources that essentially fill the role of what my creatures are there primarily to do.
Are there other options? If you're going to respond please explain why you think it is an option in detail. Also, it would probably help to specify what sort of build it should go in. For instance I didn't list the 1cc zombies here because simply put they don't fit me list. Turn 1 I'll be playing either 1) pinpoint 1cc discard; or 2) mana acceleration into a creature or other disruption... possibly both. Turn 2 I have better options that the 1cc zombies, especially considering I'm not running equipment which is the single reason they're any later than Turn 3.
In my opinion, unless you know what meta you're facing Tombstalker is your best option there. If the meta is known, find a hate card to put in. Tombstalker is a 2-of because at most you want to see 1 of him a game, and likely not in your opening hand. The chances of you drawing into him with Dark Confidant is slim. It's a risk that pays off, much like Negator in that manner. You have a 50% chance of drawing him with Dark Confidant which would have to preclude Confidant being on the table (which if he sticks around tends to mean you've won). If you have a Tombstalker in your opening hand that drastically decreases the chances of drawing him. Honestly, how long does Confidant tend to stick on the table? If you get to draw roughly 3 extra cards off of Confidant the game should be closing so rapidly you can taste victory. There is no doubt that when it finally does happen, it hurts like hell. But so does Gator getting hit by Lightning Bolt. Man up you pansies :P and test it out ;) (nothing like a good inflammatory remark to end an otherwise good attempt at rational discussion)
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EDIT: I forgot to address Bau's question about land count. Honestly, I've been so happy with this configuration. Sometimes I've even considered cutting a land, but that was more of a passing thought than heavy consideration. Chrome Mox doesn't count as a full land, but it's atleast a half. Wasteland probably doesn't count as a full land either because it doesn't provide black mana and usually doesn't stick around for more than 2 turns anyways. But there's also Dark Ritual. While I guess it comes down to testing more than anything else, I find that 26 mana sources is enough. Plus I really like running a full set of Duress and Thoughtseize. I've yet to meet a combo or control deck (accepting 43lands) that has a good game against this version of suicide black.
:laugh: Well if you put it into those terms, I suppose I have no choice but to try it. Still this scenario could happen, "Yay I am winning the game and my Bob is drawing me cards every turn. Oops, top deckdecked Mr. Stalker. Me sad...." Statically speaking, I would guess (strongly) that you are correct in what you are saying. Still, its kinda like betting in the horse races. At first you set out to place your bets on one horse, but at the very last second you changed your mind and picked another. Well, when the race is over you discover that the horse that you picked first was actually the winner. Now pretend further that you bet your life's savings on that race. You are not feeling too good right now are you? Suffice to say, no matter how many games Mr. Stalker wins me... when it backfires it gonna feel like a punch in the balls.Quote:
Originally Posted by Galroth
could be that negator can be sick but it can kill you also, lately i din't use him anymore in a tournament because I tested alot but he always killed me with all those goyfs around in my meta. And yes there are freaking alot of goyfs around here. Maybe I should test him again. I'll see about that
I will not run tombstalker, because I alrdy run fetxhlands and carnophage and confi in my build who will loese enough life and revealing a stalker with confi is more then a kick in the balls in my build it could mean death.
I wanted to share another configuration that I've been toying with for everyones analysis. In brief it differs from my favoured build by cutting land destruction for Oona's Prowler and The Rack.
Creatures (19)
4x Phyrexian Negator
4x Dark Confidant
4x Nantuko Shade
4x Hypnotic Specter
3x Oona's Prowler
Discard (12)
4x Duress
4x Thoughtseize
4x Hymn to Tourach
Other (4)
4x The Rack
Mana (25)
4x Dark Ritual
3x Chrome Mox
18x Swamp
Essentially this build ups my threat count and offers the deck a slightly better late game through an alternate kill to creatures (i.e. the rack) at the expense of cutting land destruction which offers a tempo boost early game and decimates the majority of control decks.
I thought about Nezumi Shortfang, because he's practically an autoinclude in most discard oriented decks. I chose not to add him because I wanted the quick tempo of suicide black to remain. Nezumi takes too long to come on line, plus the space needed to include him is kinda precious and I'm happy with the rest of the card choices.
I know Teacup was playing around with a similar build. It could also be considered a poor mans build. The really expensive cards in suicide black (besides Thoughtseize) are Sinkhole and Wasteland. Sadly Thoughtseize is too good to even consider cutting it.
This deck also tries to abuse Oona's Prowler. Honestly, a 3/1 flier for 2cc is quite good if they don't have cards to discard. 12 discard spells are more than enough with 7 creatures that can act as re-occuring discard. I wouldn't call this version better at all, but I haven't put alot of testing into it yet. I do really enjoy the notably increased threat count. It helps keep constant pressure on the opponent. Sinkhole and Wasteland can just be incredible when you've powered out an early Gator, Confidant, or Hyppie. Other times they just don't feel up to par.
Thoughts?
Yeah, Thoughtseize is a must buy if you want to play this deck. Luckily the price is starting to drop. Wow, I gotta say I like the build. It might be one of those danger of cool things, but I just want to give the list a try. I guess you took out the jitte's, because of the Prowler right? I feel uncomfortable with no jittes, because I found that to be a godsend against gofys and aggro anything. The Gator loses some of his playability, and misses the cute ways jitte could bend combat math in your favor. The Rack feels strong here imo. It makes discard less dead, and is quite aggressive in this build. You have 19 creatures so its not like your board is going to be lacking or anything. Plus Oona Prowler and Rack just love each other. Nice build Galroth! In a sense, you answered the problem of filling up the last creature slot with a powerful creature.Quote:
Originally Posted by Galroth
I like your build except for one thing, Cabal Therapy over Duress. Cabal therapy can give you the ability to win matchups you have no right to...two discard spells in one and it has the added bonus of helping you remove Bridge From Below and sacing your Confidants if the damage gets to be too much. I would also mention that you have no way of stoping a Tarmogoyf or preventing a deck like Breakfast from going off without creature removal.Quote:
Originally Posted by Galroth
I was thinking about that also, but haven't tested it yet
and extirpate and gate to phyrexia are very good in SB. espacially against stax kextirpating from life from the loam to chalice, to trinisphere to everything you don't like in that deck :smile: what you think about this sideboard
4x Planar void/ leyline of the void (planar void is the one I like better)
4x engineered plague (against goblins ofcoarse)
4x Extirpate
3x gate to phyrexia
gate to phyrexia: to destroy those annoying artifacts you don't like. You can use also powder keg or engineered explosives here but powder keg or gate to phyrexia are the best options in my opinion.)
I know its missing dystopia, but I don't know which is better dystopia or extirpate
Its a bit tight to use cabal therapy. We need our threats badly and to sac them to therapy is usually no small matter. I can see it improving the Ichorid matchup, but I am a bit skeptical that it would be better here than Duress. Its definitely an idea worth testing though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Happy Gilmore
Gate to Phryexia is interesting tech, but I dont feel it makes the cut. And before you even think of fitting it in, make sure you have Dystopia or something like Perish in the SB first.
Gate to phyrexia is to threat costly, anyways stax isnt that bad of a matchup so its not that important to hate it out. It is interesting though, so if your meta has alot of stax then it might not be terrible.Quote:
Originally Posted by Slayer001
Oh and dystopia is easily better then extirpate. Extirpate does not effect the gamestate so even if you cast it, your opponent will still be playing spells in their hand and utilizing their board. Dystopia is great because it cripples any green or white deck. For 1 card you get rid of as many cards you wish on the opposite side of the table. If the opponent doesnt answer a dystopia then they lose, meanwhile if the opponent doesnt answer a extirpate they can still easily win.
That Sui black with green splash list from Worlds looks pretty nice:
20 lands
4 Bayou
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Polluted Delta
4 Swamp
4 Wasteland
16 creatures
4 Carnophage
4 Dark Confidant
4 Nantuko Shade
4 Tarmogoyf
24 spells
4 Dark Ritual
4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sarcomancy
4 Thoughtseize
4 Umezawa's Jitte
Sideboard
4 Engineered Explosives
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Pithing Needle
3 Serum Powder
Looks like he's not giving up much to run the best creature in the game, and that discard package is just devastating.
Another relatively cheap to build deck has once again been invalidated by the inclusion of Tarmogoyf...
A few month ago I believed the dual lands to be the biggest barrier to enter legacy. Maybe I should just play burn.
Sorry for the lack of constructive input...
edit: of course the printing of thoughtseize did not help the deck either. But seriously I couldn't believe my eyes when I saw Tarmogoyf in that list. As TeenieBopper mentioned in the "Worlds Metagame Predictions" Thread, it would make perfect sense to be included in goblins too. I have to stop thinking about it, its just sad. So any predictions when the price for Tarmogoyf will go down (if ever)?
I like it. been disliking the hippies lately, and the gators are a gamble to play sometimes. I also never liked the pump knights much, because they are such suckers for black mana (the shades are enough on that matter), although the evasion on the crusader is nice sometimes
@ Observer: I share the same pain. I dont have a full suite of goyfs yet and I doubt I'll get the full 4 sometime soon, because they are so expensive. I wish I had got more of them when they were 10$ (or 3$ but I thought they sucked back then). and I seriously doubt their prices will go down anytime soon, if at all, unless one of these 2 scenarios happen: a better creature is printed (doubtful, as goyf is close to brokenness), or it gets banned. I can see them going down in price in a few months, maybe 5$ if that much, and a bit more when FS gets rotated out of T2. but I bet they will still retain a 30$ price tag after that just because they are so good in every format
goblins was the second-most played deck at worlds, seems like abig enough showing to me. At any given tournament, you can expect to see at least two deck there: goblins and thresh. Goblins is still in the meta, despite seeing few top 8s recently, and having a poor match up against them can spell a possible game loss if you're planning on attending a big tournament.Quote:
Originally Posted by A Legend
Also, @ 75% 'auto-loss' ratio of goblins vs thresh and TES:
I have RB gobins built, with thorn MD, 4therapy 3 thoughtseize and 3 (to complete the set) Mad Aunties SB + 1 King.
The thorn is amazing in goblins, and effectivly makes cantrips cost twice as much, along with upsetting daze and FoW, botha 4-of in thresh. From anyone who has poileted a combo deck VS sphere of resistance, just about the same is true of thorn. (save for your xantid swarms are still just G) I have consistantly beat my friend's GUr thresh deck, and have about a 40% and 60% record vs my other friend's TES deck pre and post boards respectivly. I assure you both of them are compotent players, and Thorn + disruption really does make a difference.
uhm srry to remind you but is not a goblin thread but a suicide black thread
that list of worlds looks good but I only have 1 tarmogoyf. but i'll try it out with proxies someday
and you are right about dystopia its alot better, but it can cost you much life, not ? first 1 life then 2 then 4, with all the other lifeloss around ( bob, carnophage, maybe sarcomancy or fetchlands). Stax is no auto win it can be though with a chalice at 2 and tabernacle at the pendrell vell or magusd of the tabernacle, they can hurt alot. we need something to kill artifacts in SB and best options are as mentioned powder keg, gate to phyrexia and engineered explosives
if youre playing goyfs you can run naturalize/krosan grip in the SB aswell
Not really. It takes effect as soon as your opponent's upkeep, before you ever paid life.Quote:
Originally Posted by Slayer001
With 2 upkeep paid, you get rid of 3 pesky green critters. ie you get rid of your Threshold opponent's fat army with just 0, 1 then 2 lifepoints loss.
But, splashing green just for 4 Goyfs ?! Man, I know this card is great, but at the expense of manabase stability (even if with 8 fetches, the splashed cards are easily playable) is this a good deal ?!
At least Peter Steinaa's B/g build packed some Rockish cards like Deed+Witnesses when Roel van Heeswijk played a Rockguy build where the green beast shines.
Can't we just keep the heavy discard package and pack some Knights or Hippies (even Wretch) without threatening the deck's raw power ?!
[EDIT]Tarmogoyf don't interact greatly with some of the best SB cards avalaible for this deck : Planar Void and Dystopia...[/EDIT]
I think the deck list looks fantastic. Perhaps it is a mistake to over think the green splash, and we should merely use it for the Gofys. Still I would have liked to see some old favorites like Negator. I am having a hard time believing he is outdated. Yay for Serum Powders in the SB! This deck went 5-0 right? Anyway, I hate to say it but Gofy is definitely what this deck needs to hit the top. It does not overly affect the deck too much, and I am sure the mana base could be made more resilient to overcome any potential weaknesses.Quote:
Originally Posted by Phantom
I love negator so much, but I hate to say that he is indead obsolete atm. I would give an arm and a leg if it meant an errata that gave him fear or flying.Quote:
Originally Posted by LordEvilTeaCup
Anyone nice the 4x Jitte????? This is clearly the trump strategy. And where the heck is Specter! That card is so good in here.
Not to be a dick or anything, but there's nothing innovative about that list. It's your list, my list, everyone in this threads list. Just because a pro took the exact same skeleton we all use and piloted it to some success shouldn't negate what you guys have already done.
Most of us already run 4 Jitte and 12 discard and splashing green has always been a valid option for Goyf I mean why the hell not right? If anything, I'd like to reiterate what lolosoon brought up. Where the hell are Deeds, Witnesses, Berserk?? If you're gonna corrupt the mana base, you might as well take advantage of it's strengths, no?