Re: [DTB] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bryant Cook
If you had ritual, ritual, Ad Nauseum. Why wouldn't you cast it already on one of your mainphases? Why wait?
Because most people prefer to combo off with Protection. Not just go off and hope they don't have a counterspell/Chant/etc.
@ Myselves: You are making assumptions now. I didn't say it was first turn, I simply said you have Rit, Rit, AdN in hand. Also, your thought on bounce is nonsense, as every other storm list has proven that eot bounce on the hate piece and then comboing off during your turn is acceptable, and even a good idea.
I don't like to combo off turn 1 in game one as then I'm not sure how to board for game 2. There's a chance (40% to 44% chance, depending on who's playing first) that they have a FoW in their opening hand. If they don't and you combo off turn 1, you have no idea if they are playing Force or not, let alone what other hate they are probably packing in their sideboard since you got to see exactly nothing they are playing. It's important to gather information, since you combo'ed off turn 1 game one, chances alone say you probably won't game 2, and even if you did, their chances of having a force of will in their opening hand get better anyway since they didn't game one, not to mention all the other hate they sided in.
I like to know what I'm up against. If it's nothing with blue, it's not like they are going to beat me anyway. If it is with blue, then I'm taking a big risk in comboing off turn one, no matter which game it is since I have no idea what they are playing anyway, not to mention their better chances at getting a FoW in their opening hand game two since they didn't have one game one.
@ Rinello: The Infernal Tutor is something I've suggested for a while now. How do you like it? It works REALLY well for me. I'm glad to see someone else who thinks it's a good idea. How are the Forbidden Orchards doing? I run Tops, so I use a Glimmervoid and an Orchard. I've also never tested Diamond. Does it ever screw you?
Pce,
--DC
Re: [DTB] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dark_Cynic87
Turn 1 win considerations
I'd always combo off turn 1 on the play if i can.
This is because if the opponent plays blue:
- He has 1 more turn to draw or cantrip into FoW.
- He can leave stifle mana open.
- He can now play daze.
- He can leave Spell Snare mana open
If he's not blue:
- He can waste/sinkhole the land I played
- He can play some stupid disruption spell such as duress, thoughtseize, etc.
- He can D. Rit -> pain in the ass
- He can Chalice@1 or Trinisphere
- He can play a burn spell, thus reducing my life total and making AN fizzle more often
- He can leave a whitemana open for Chant if it's a combo deck.
- If it's a combo deck, he can even win.
- He can play a Blood Moon effect
This is the list of the things my opponent can do on turn 1 when I'm on the play: Fow, Misdirection, Commandeer, Faerie Macabre. Note that Misdi and commandeer are almost never played and Faerie Macabre is usually a 1 of in survival. That's it, chances are 60% against blue decks and 100% against the rest. Not bad, count me in.
Re: [DTB] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Wtf. Really, just give up the argument, you are really wrong. It's ALWAYS better to combo turn 1 on the play if you don't know what you're up against.
About the "not knowing what to board": just use IGG, if your opponent is bad, which is usually the case, they won't scoop before it resolves, so you can look at their hand.
How does your opponent have more chance or less chance of having FoW on the play/draw if you combo turn 1? Are you counting cantrips? I'd like to know how you calculated that 40%/44%.
Also, the chances of you opponent having FoW don't increase just because they didn't have one game 1. If you don't even know that, I don't really trust your mathematical abillities.
Sure, I prefer going off with protection, I just don't aklways do as I don't always have the ability. If you can choose between a turn 1 combo, or a potential later kill with protection, it's better to do the turn 1, still assuming you and you opponent don't know what you're up against.
The case of waiting eventhough you had Rit, Rit, AdN: it's possible, just unlikely to be good. It might be okay game 2 against FairyStompy if you boarded SSpree's. Then you can pass the turn, trying to assemble a protected kill and then AdN in response to their CotV at 1 (notice it doesn't help anything if they cast it at 0 or 2), draw a bunch of cards, SSpree their Chalice in your turn and win. Without the SSpree, it's likely you still won't be able to win on your own turn, especially since Fairystompy has a fast clock meaning you are low on life. Most decks with CotV dont play counters so you don't have to wait. In almost every case it's better to try winning without protection if they have CotV/CB in their deck. It's also a possibility to try AdN in response to CB, but you gave them an extra draw + maybe cantrip to find FoW/Daze/Spell Snare and an extra untap step to be able to cast more cantrips/Spell Snares.
Re: [DTB] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dark_Cynic87
@ Rinello: The Infernal Tutor is something I've suggested for a while now. How do you like it? It works REALLY well for me. I'm glad to see someone else who thinks it's a good idea. How are the Forbidden Orchards doing? I run Tops, so I use a Glimmervoid and an Orchard. I've also never tested Diamond. Does it ever screw you?
Infernal tutor is good in side ONLY if you have some other tutors already.
Turn 1 Mine, Rite of Flame, Wish for Infernal, Turn 2 rite, infernal, led led = AdN = Win is good.
Forbidden Orchad is GOD.
I don't give a S**t if you beat me for 1 or 2 more, I can combo out fast so I'll just draw 1 less..
If things get nasty I can wish for Firesprout so no problem, really.
I don't like Glimmervoid, as I want to be able to make "orchad, duress, go" just in case.
Diamond is there ONLY to be tested.
With AdN is important to have 1 mana open to start.
SSG, Petal, Crome and a Land help this way, but sometimes you have 3 or 4 lands and you must start. Mox Diamond helps, also against wasteland.
It's just a test, the main thing I would like to discuss is 1 Infernal in side and Mystical Tutor in main. I just want people (most of all breath weapon) to discuss Japan lists and mine (cause breath weapon has really hardcore builds, he just put everything in 4x and makes a real solid list imho)
That's all.
Re: [DTB] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dark_Cynic87
@ Myselves: You are making assumptions now. I didn't say it was first turn, I simply said you have Rit, Rit, AdN in hand. Also, your thought on bounce is nonsense, as every other storm list has proven that eot bounce on the hate piece and then comboing off during your turn is acceptable, and even a good idea.
No, other storm lists like ANT or FT, which play Mystical tutor, and build around it. They use Mystical Tutor and Bounce to have solutions for the cards beeing able to give them a rough time.
But TES is build around Burning Wish, and build to race hate cards, and putting those two ways together doesn't work even near as well.
Re: [DTB] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
myselves
No, other storm lists like ANT or FT, which play Mystical tutor, and build around it. They use Mystical Tutor and Bounce to have solutions for the cards beeing able to give them a rough time.
But TES is build around Burning Wish, and build to race hate cards, and putting those two ways together doesn't work even near as well.
That's not true, I've seen versions of TES and versions of ANT that use Burning Wish and Mystical Tutor under the premise that Infernal Tutor is "worthless." If you look at those Japanese lists, you'll see Storm combo decks that aren't as fast, but they are more consistent.
I think it's totally viable, it's just not "hands down" better or worse.
Re: [DTB] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
BreathWeapon
That's not true, I've seen versions of TES and versions of ANT that use Burning Wish and Mystical Tutor under the premise that Infernal Tutor is "worthless." If you look at those Japanese lists, you'll see Storm combo decks that aren't as fast, but they are more consistent.
I think it's totally viable, it's just not "hands down" better or worse.
Yeah, I've also seen japanese Soldierlists, or 1-2 guys running 1-2 Tombstalker MD and 2-3 in the board, ManPlan in TES ftw. some guys have done so and finished great anywhere anywhy, why not?
Re: [DTB] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
myselves
Yeah, I've also seen japanese Soldierlists, or 1-2 guys running 1-2 Tombstalker MD and 2-3 in the board, ManPlan in TES ftw. some guys have done so and finished great anywhere anywhy, why not?
I can't understand your English, but if you're implying TES lists can still win their good match ups with sub-optimal card choices, I'd argue Mystical Tutor does more to win TES's bad match ups than Infernal Tutor, when Infernal Tutor doesn't have every necessary card to go off behind it.
The logic is sound, it's just a significant adjustment to TES that "balls to the walls" players may not care for.
Re: [DTB] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
BreathWeapon
I can't understand your English, but if you're implying TES lists can still win their good match ups with sub-optimal card choices, I'd argue Mystical Tutor does more to win TES's bad match ups than Infernal Tutor, when Infernal Tutor doesn't have every necessary card to go off behind it.
The logic is sound, it's just a significant adjustment to TES that "balls to the walls" players may not care for.
No, I think you just didn't get the irony.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
BreathWeapon
That's not true, I've seen versions of TES and versions of ANT that use Burning Wish and Mystical Tutor under the premise that Infernal Tutor is "worthless."
Cause this is no argument, or at least no valid argument.
My point was just that I've also seen a lot of decks that, in fact not belong to legacy.
And where does Mystical Tutor improves any rough Matchups for TES? The CDA is troublesome against Thresh/Thrash/Chalice Aggro/Suicide. The only relevant Matchups where Mystical Tutor shines is Landstill, which isn't as rough as it was a few months ago since they're cutting Halo and Extirpate for Relic of Progentius in the Board.
Re: [DTB] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dark_Cynic87
It's important to gather information, since you combo'ed off turn 1 game one, chances alone say you probably won't game 2, and even if you did, their chances of having a force of will in their opening hand get better anyway since they didn't game one, not to mention all the other hate they sided in.
I'd just like to point out that no matter how many times you flip a heads on a coin, your next flip still only has a 50% chance of getting a tails.
Statistics is funny like that.
Re: [DTB] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
myselves
No, I think you just didn't get the irony.
Cause this is no argument, or at least no valid argument.
My point was just that I've also seen a lot of decks that, in fact not belong to legacy.
And where does Mystical Tutor improves any rough Matchups for TES? The CDA is troublesome against Thresh/Thrash/Chalice Aggro/Suicide. The only relevant Matchups where Mystical Tutor shines is Landstill, which isn't as rough as it was a few months ago since they're cutting Halo and Extirpate for Relic of Progentius in the Board.
It's not a question of whether or not Infernal Tutor or Mystical is better versus Landstill etc. it's a question of Infernal Tutor being worthless for anything other than "going off" and Mystical Tutor having the ability to find disruption, removal and cards to "go off." Those Japanese lists are experimental, but they've got merit and shouldn't be dismissed out of hand. TES runs fine with out Mystical Tutor, but I wouldn't begrudge any one from running Mystical Tutor either.
It's simply not as cut and dry as you'd like to make it out to be.
Re: [DTB] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
I agree with what was said above. I am a T.E.S player myself and enjoy Bryant's version of the deck down to every last card in the main board. When it comes to sideboard I've changed it a little due to my meta game in the area.
I think when it comes down to these Infernal Tutor, Mystical Tutor discussion's it comes down to personal preference and what your meta game is like.
Re: [DTB] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
BreathWeapon
It's not a question of whether or not Infernal Tutor or Mystical is better versus Landstill etc. it's a question of Infernal Tutor being worthless for anything other than "going off" and Mystical Tutor having the ability to find disruption, removal and cards to "go off." Those Japanese lists are experimental, but they've got merit and shouldn't be dismissed out of hand. TES runs fine with out Mystical Tutor, but I wouldn't begrudge any one from running Mystical Tutor either.
It's simply not as cut and dry as you'd like to make it out to be.
Bluff the opponent or search down the 2nd Chant is useless against what?
Finding the missing acceleration piece before beeing able to go off with Wish/IT for Iggy is worthless?
One more time, to my point of view TES has to race hate, not like ANT does.
And Mystical is almost dead, it gets shut down by a chalice if you are on the draw, and the carddisadvantage is to clunky against almost every Tier1 - 2 deck except Landstill and MUC.
Also searching a Duress just for just beeing able to duress Turn 2 doesn't put you in a superior position, it forces you to rush the opponent with your remaining 6 cards if you see a winable situation.
Mystical gets worse while taking mulligan and so on.
And if you want to include Mystical Tutor over IT you should proove where it improoves TES rough Matchups, I actually see none like I'd tell you before.
Re: [DTB] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
BreathWeapon
TES runs fine with out Mystical Tutor, but I wouldn't begrudge any one from running Mystical Tutor either.
It's simply not as cut and dry as you'd like to make it out to be.
If you decide to pick up TES and run Mystical in it then your understanding on how the deck operates is flawed. There is no way you should run mystical if you have access to the 5 different colors in magic. In the deck, you run 4 infernal tutors, burning wishes, brainstorm, along with 3 ponders and 3 ad nauseum. Why would you need to play an inferior card in mystical tutor?
I understand running it in the versions that don't play the 5 color lands, but thats because you don't play burning wish.
Burning Wish > Mystical Tutor
The japanese combo decks are just awful by the card selection I saw. They clearly did not test enough or didn't care and just ran whatever. They did well because combo is just that good in legacy right now.
Re: [DTB] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
I wouldn't just disregard the Japanese lists as worthless, particularly since basically 2 TES w/ Mystical top 8ed (1st and 3rd) in a large tournament (well, I'm assuming anyway, these side events at GPs or PTs always draw a fairly large showing, and the prize was an uncut sheet of Antiquities with Factories and stuff on it). I don't think you can just automatically assume your configuration is the best, while others that put up results are playing with unprepared lists. They must be doing something right if they are winning.
Now I personally don't like Mystical in TES, as I prefer Mystical more in something like FT/ANT. But I'm really liking the Japanese lists' manabase. We were all debating about which gold land to use couple of pages ago, but apparently, with some tight play, it looks like fetches + duals + goldlands (as opposed to dipping into stuff like Glimmervoid or Tarnished Citadel) works quite well. I think that's something to look into.
Re: [DTB] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
nickrit2000
If you decide to pick up TES and run Mystical in it then your understanding on how the deck operates is flawed. There is no way you should run mystical if you have access to the 5 different colors in magic. In the deck, you run 4 infernal tutors, burning wishes, brainstorm, along with 3 ponders and 3 ad nauseum. Why would you need to play an inferior card in mystical tutor?
I understand running it in the versions that don't play the 5 color lands, but thats because you don't play burning wish.
Burning Wish > Mystical Tutor
The japanese combo decks are just awful by the card selection I saw. They clearly did not test enough or didn't care and just ran whatever. They did well because combo is just that good in legacy right now.
First, I've used TES just as long as Bryant has, so don't tell me I misunderstand the deck when I've got 4 moxes that say otherwise. Second, I never said I planned to include Mystical Tutor in TES. The point I was arguing, and the point you've misconstrued, is that it's not a question of Burning Wish > Mystical but whether or not Burning Wish and Mystical Tutor were viable in the same deck. They are, it's just not necessarily optimal in TES, which I prefaced my argument with.
Sure, the Japanese lists are rough, but they're novel and have potential. Being able to split 4 Duress and 1 Orim's Chant, having a MD Echoing Truth and a singleton Cabal Ritual as tutorable LED gives the deck a lot of options in clutch situations. Just being to grab Empty the Warrens changes how control decks are going to have to deal with you, so there's a lot of advantages to Mystical Tutor that only play out in game when you're not being too incredulous to actually test the card.
Re: [DTB] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
BreathWeapon
First, I've used TES just as long as Bryant has, so don't tell me I misunderstand the deck when I've got 4 moxes that say otherwise. Second, I never said I planned to include Mystical Tutor in TES. The point I was arguing, and the point you've misconstrued, is that it's not a question of Burning Wish > Mystical but whether or not Burning Wish and Mystical Tutor were viable in the same deck. They are, it's just not necessarily optimal in TES, which I prefaced my argument with.
If you think its good deckbuilding to be playing both burning wish and mystical tutor in the same deck that already runs infernal tutor, then you need to revaluate your deck building skills.
Mystical tutor is card disadvantage and there is no reason to play it if your already running burning wish and infernal tutor in the deck. You would be better suited to be running more rituals/protection spells in that spot instead of getting cute with all the one ofs which burning wish solves.
It just boggles my mind why so many players think mystical tutor is good and worth playing. Unless your not playing red for burning wish, mystical tutor shouldn't even be considered.
Re: [DTB] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
I'm playing the standard list. If Thresh/control isn't big in my meta, what would you suggest replacing the Shushers with? -3 Shushers, +1 Pyroblast, +1 Thoughtseize, +1 ???
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Chrome Mox
4 Dark Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
2 Cabal Ritual
2 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Burning Wish
3 Ad Nauseum
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Tendrils of Agony
4 Orim's Chant
2 Duress
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
1 Undiscovered Paradise
1 Forbiddan Orchard
SB
3 Pyroblast
3 Vexing Shusher
3 Shattering Spree
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Tranquility
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Grapeshot
1 Tendrils of Agony
Re: [DTB] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
I've already moved Shusher down to 2, I cut Cleanfall and a Shusher for two Chain of Vapor. Gaddeck Teeg and Canonist are just cards we need hate for. I'd recommend Chain of Vapor x2 and a Duress if you insist on cutting all three. Chain of Vapor after Nauseum is amazing at generating storm at the worst.
Re: [DTB] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bryant Cook
I've already moved Shusher down to 2, I cut Cleanfall and a Shusher for two Chain of Vapor. Gaddeck Teeg and Canonist are just cards we need hate for. I'd recommend Chain of Vapor x2 and a Duress if you insist on cutting all three. Chain of Vapor after Nauseum is amazing at generating storm at the worst.
Any chance you'd be able to update the OP with the most current config?
