Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
Premise: i'm absolutely calm, and I don't want to flame or other, just to answer politely but firmly. There's no really need to insult or whatever, in a civili and public discussion (that is the measure of one's intelligence).
Premise #2: I played cunningstill alot (it's 2 years, maybe, that i'm playing the same archetype), and I'm not saying I'm the master of landstill or anything else, but I quite know the deck (or a specific version of it, at least. Sure I forgot 3c countertop, I can be excused because I've never considered this possibility in my builds.).
Quote:
Originally Posted by mossivo1986
Just because vindicate-still runs 3x wasteland and a sorcery speed permanant disruptor doesnt make it any better at being aggresive then the wish still variant that I run.
It does, it does. I quote everything rockout said and citrus-god too. There's a specific difference in a deck that runs a disruption pack where another deck has a draw engine. I'm not saying that vindicate-still has a lower clock than cunninstill or becomes an aggrocontrol deck with vindicate and wastelands (if is this that you deny), but simply that running a disruption pack in the place of a serch engine requires a different attitude towards the deck, where the player who chooses a massive disruption pack can certain be qualified as "more aggressive" then a player who chooses the search/tutor engine.
Quote:
Vindicate still has to run additional black sources "more then 1 sea 1 scrubland" to make their vindicates playable upon drawing them. the reason wish still plays only 1-1 for black splits is because the splash is incredibly light and used for ee and/ or extirpate if you need it. It's a timing land if you will vs something you actually do need to obtain in the game. So while vindicate lists more then likely run 2-2 split and/or additional fetches they still weaken their mana base to obtain that third color splash.
This is not a must, this is an option. I'm not obliged to run the basic swamp, not even to play more than 1 sea/scrubland. It's simply matter of taste, I want the basic swamp, period. You run 3/6 LD pack. If an opponent worries to waste your sea/scrubland while he is under land destruction and has to play carefully with tight mana, he's a fool. We don't use vindicate as a tempo-tool as tempo-thresh uses wastes and stifle, so black can be used as it was before. Also, wastelands power up again the role of crucible, and this means mana stability. All these factors together are enough to eliminate the basic swamp, but I like to have it, so here it is. And, as you see below, i Hae 6-7 basics, fair enough I think.
land [24]
1 Academy Ruins
3 Flooded Strand
3 Island
3 Mishra's Factory
3 Plains
2 Polluted Delta
1 Scrubland
1 Swamp
3 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
3 Wasteland
Quote:
Now lets talk about this wasteland issue people keep bringing up
Not to mention the differences in colored mana sources versus non-colored mana source.
3 mishra
1 dust
1 ruins
1 tolaria west
vs
4 mishra
3x wasteland
1 ruins.
Notice something interesting here? How about that vindicate still complicates its mana base with count them 8 sources of colorless lands to suit their color intensive mana base that they already have. Now granted there will always be situations where wasteland is superior to dustbowl, but as a general principle I would take dustbowl in most of these situations simply because it doesn't require you to have additional copies or a completely wacky manabase. .
Just for beginning, I run 3 mishra 3 waste 1 ruins, so 7 uncolored mana sources, just 1 more than you. I don't complicate my manabase, that is well fixed for now and is not so strange as you depict it. Surely there's the problem of that basic swamp, but that was discussed above. But you're obstinate to repeat that "in general blablabla". There's not a "general" situation in which you can compare bowl to waste, but only specific fields of application. Dust bowl can never be used as a tempo-tool, because it requires so much mana, while wasteland needs just herslef. Dust bowl without crucible is virtually everending (only virtually), waste is ready to use for the MU we don't have the time to go land recursion. Dust bowl is alone. Wasteland is supported by the more versatile disrupt engine of legacy.
Quote:
Well as far as difference approaches are concerned I wouldnt count some homebrew you just randomly put together and called a solid list something to concieve as top tier without testing against a wider variety of opponents.
First of all, I have specified that mine was only a draft list, just go back and read the discussions, while "e-tutor"-still (it's just a label which distincts the tutor tool from that of wish) is a project well discussed and tested in other forums. I repeat: I'm not the master of anything, but I'm not the last dumbass. However, your objection is exactly what I could say to you. Your list can be solid and whatever, but you can't put up some changes to the classic list and pretend that you invented a new archetype.
// Creatures
3 [MOR] Vendilion Clique (what's this thing?!?)
1 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant "its a 1 of not 2 in this list" (if you play only 1 of that bomb, that doesn't mean you're a pro player)
// Spells
2 [SC] Decree of Justice
3 [LRW] Ponder (i've played ponder last year before dif's list, and was one of the first to put it in landstill and defend it in italy, since no one did give it a chance. then i also give it up for etutor. but it's not that great innovation...)
3 [OD] Standstill "normal lists play 4" (in italy it's about november we started to play with 3 to make rooms for planeswalkers)
2 [JU] Cunning Wish (always played 2)
1 [IN] Fact or Fiction "the last time this was played in wish still was in the board of the 4c versions when I first picked up this deck." (in italy, always MD and a copy sb in classic versions)
4 [AL] Force of Will
2 [10E] Wrath of God
1 [TE] Humility
2 [FD] Engineered Explosives "normally a 3 of" (we prefere a 2/1 split with a massive removal such as disk)
1 [SHM] Runed Halo "normally not played in the md" (good silver bullet, must be present ine very list running etutor)
3 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus (metadependat?)
2 [DIS] Spell Snare "normally a 3 of" (spell snare is not normal, can be replaced with many thing and it's not canon. I put it in landstill since the beggining and was criticized a lot)
4 [FNM] Brainstorm
4 [FNM] Swords to Plowshares
Quote:
oh and also note a lack of counterspell. I hear optimal builds of landstill now a days dont run +8 counters.
Oh, and the fact you don't play counterspell does not mean this is a wonderful list either. Some people do not run counterspell, some people run mana leak, some people run counterspell. Game style and meta, most of all.
Quote:
This version is classic though as you know other then the 3 relics. right? "extreme sarcasm." If you have any further comments about the list I run feel free to pm me and we can flame all night over pms. I will no longer be defending over the dtb forum. Thanx.
Yeah, I really feel this is just a classic version with some cut of really important things and some strange (but certain useful!) additions. And this does not mean this is a shit and you've never heard me saying it and I certainly do not think it. I surely don't like many things in that list, and in a meta like the north-italian one, full of landstills-thresholds-gobbos-burns I would never play a list like yours. This again does not mean that your list is completely useless nor do I think that. It reflects that landstill has to find some new tools to face the dominance of tarmogoyf ans stalkers and grave games in general in this legacy. This can be discussed. Solutions can be found. Pacifically and politely: this is a public forum. If you think that yours is the ultimate landstill deckbuild and no one has the right to criticize it, that's another matter. ButI think that you're an intelligent person and hope all of your post is due to a mere and human misunderstading.
I hope that discussion could follow with more serenity by now on.
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
I would like to throw my two cents in here. and just try and defend poor clique in landstill. It really helps in certain situations and i actually run 2 of them in my current build. I really like howit plays out. the only problem i have with is and it is 100% due to my crazy topdecks is that just about every time i clique myself and draw the card it is always humility...But if i have a clique on the board it usually means i am either going for a win and have stabilized or i am using it to trade attackers. in both cases either humility wont be needed or my clique wont be around to be affected by humility.
The relics in the mainboard is a purely meta dependent choice. Relic does very well against team america, makes thresholds creatures just that much smaller. and it happens to work well against ichorid. and in the aggro loam matchup i am tempted to call relic removal. In my area there are quite a few loam decks and the relics in the main have really shown that they deserve to be there.
On the topic of wasteland and dust bowl. i have found that if i ran crucible in the main that i would rather run wasteland. but if i didnt run crucible i would want dust bowl. and it also can vary depending on the matchup. I also am working to try and fit in one ofeach. just to see if this helps at all...i have a feeling that this will just flop and i will be back to my indecisive ways.
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
i_need_the_extra_turns
Sorry konsultant, but I dont like your list - i rather think its awful.
First the manabase:
I would cut the swamp, it makes nothing.
Then u play 3 wasteland and no crucible (???). Are u playing a fast aggro deck, which can achieve a tempo advantage after wasting a opp' land and finish quickly?
Sure u can play vindicates but u just need the crucible for the lock.
Cut the wasteland's for one dustbowl and add the crucible not only for the lock - it helps u to ensure your landdrops and the CoW is often mvp in many matchups (tempo thresh ugr or ugb, team america).
Vindicate is absolutely awful in landstill. It cost 3 mana is a sorcery, it trades only 1for1 and before I forget it: its a sorcery and landstill wants to play at instant speed or when it plays something at sorcery speed it wants to totally smack the opponent.
U have already the explosives for stuff like that and the explosives is such versatile - it can blow away multiple targets...tokens etc.
I warmly recommand to play the 4th EE when u want to handle more artifacts or stuff.
Where is the humility? It is just too good. U HAVE to play two.
Well, I also suggest to play one or two elspeth - u can cut a decree and/or a E-dragon.
Where is the cunning wish? Also the wish can help u to handle stuff etc. and wish-> pulse or wish->extirpate is often MVP in matchups like burn, goyf slugh or loam.
The wish is also superior to the enlightened tutor. I just dont get it why people try the e.-tutor again. The enlightened tutor is card disadvantage - ok it can get u standstill which would negate this but the wish is the key card in some matchups as I mentioned above and it does the same as the enlightened tutor because u play the enlightened tutor in your sideboard. U can still play wish->enlightened tutor->humility for example.
This is all a regress in the development of landstill.
In todays meta I would try a single sensei to add consistency to your list.
I think the currently list that Geoff is running is pretty amazing. He is by far the best landstill player in legacy. He is always trying to tweak the deck as the metagame is consistenly changing.
The inclusion in the deck was when he added in vindicate b/c it solves so many problem that the deck can have. I wouldn't be hung up on it being a sorcery speed spell.
Also, playing cards like humility is really bad these days b/c of the existence of krosan grip which you can't answer. You have to transform your landstill list into one that deals with the kind of decks you might face.
If you don't like the list then don't play it, but you can't argue with the results its been posting.
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
About Clique. Clique offers you a pretty abusive flyer in the red zone and most decks either remove it or die from it. I have yet to see vendilion get blocked without humility in play or something to that note. Not to mention the obvious that she has flash. Clique gives also gives you a look if you need it @ what your opponent is playing thus on your turn you can resolve crucial spells. That scenario happens constantly. One of the issues I have seen in landstill is that when you dont know what your opponent has you play much safer then you otherwise would. Which is both smart and numb at the same time. Vendilion clique helps ease your troubles in this way. This also goes in the same regard that the cute little ability finds nothing you want to remove from their hand at their eot step. Another strong ability is to target yourself and remove that lame wrath of god in the armaeddon stax matchup "just named a random matchup" allowing you to -a- get a threat and -b- filter your hand. At 3 mana for a substantial threat in aggro control/ control/ combo matchups it has been worth every mana of the investment. Vendilion can also be a problem if your opponent is running mogg fanatic or fire/ice it can hurt that investment slightly. The main focus though really is that
1. removes life from the loam from opponents hand and doesnt rfg so they can just get it back.
2. Forces opponent to make a key decision which if they choose wrongly opens them up on your turn so you can resolve key spells.
3. Removes specific combo pieces like ad nausium and the like.
4. If left unanswered is a 3/1 flyer and will finish opponents off quickly.
5. acts as a filter in some matchups which can be quite usefull if your looking for just 1 card.
As for relic I would just say that all haters feel free to look at the dtb section and get back with me. Yes I know that every deck will not show up at your local 20 man, or maybe not even all of them at chicago in march. But As far as planning for a large tourney and looking at what decks are performing extremely well I argue to say that well over half of the dtb section is hindered in some way or another wether it be vital or not by relic. We all know it cripples/ hinders aggro loam, ta, ichorid, thresh, survival. But theres decks that at worst it cantrips against a post board how much easier is it to sideboard when they are not incredible against. Yes its a tier choice. I am rolling my dice on the fact that md relics will be incredibly usefull for me.
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
nickrit2000
I think the currently list that Geoff is running is pretty amazing. He is by far the best landstill player in legacy. He is always trying to tweak the deck as the metagame is consistenly changing.
The inclusion in the deck was when he added in vindicate b/c it solves so many problem that the deck can have. I wouldn't be hung up on it being a sorcery speed spell.
Also, playing cards like humility is really bad these days b/c of the existence of krosan grip which you can't answer. You have to transform your landstill list into one that deals with the kind of decks you might face.
If you don't like the list then don't play it, but you can't argue with the results its been posting.
I like the list... I just prefer the 'set-up' build with Cwish instead of the 'cates... Its' not a 'OMG this build is better' thing, its a playstyle preference, and I am comfortable with it... and I still win w/ it, so its' fine.
I would have to disagree on one thing however... I am the best landstill player in the game! Get it right!
I wish legacy was more alive in SD (only 1 small local left/no events)... I would still be winning every tournament I entered :frown:.
Oh well, perhaps I can travel this summer for a batcave event or something.
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
i_need_the_extra_turns
Sorry konsultant, but I dont like your list - i rather think its awful.
First the manabase:
I would cut the swamp, it makes nothing.
Then u play 3 wasteland and no crucible (???). Are u playing a fast aggro deck, which can achieve a tempo advantage after wasting a opp' land and finish quickly?
Sure u can play vindicates but u just need the crucible for the lock.
Cut the wasteland's for one dustbowl and add the crucible not only for the lock - it helps u to ensure your landdrops and the CoW is often mvp in many matchups (tempo thresh ugr or ugb, team america).
Vindicate is absolutely awful in landstill. It cost 3 mana is a sorcery, it trades only 1for1 and before I forget it: its a sorcery and landstill wants to play at instant speed or when it plays something at sorcery speed it wants to totally smack the opponent.
U have already the explosives for stuff like that and the explosives is such versatile - it can blow away multiple targets...tokens etc.
I warmly recommand to play the 4th EE when u want to handle more artifacts or stuff.
Where is the humility? It is just too good. U HAVE to play two.
Well, I also suggest to play one or two elspeth - u can cut a decree and/or a E-dragon.
Where is the cunning wish? Also the wish can help u to handle stuff etc. and wish-> pulse or wish->extirpate is often MVP in matchups like burn, goyf slugh or loam.
The wish is also superior to the enlightened tutor. I just dont get it why people try the e.-tutor again. The enlightened tutor is card disadvantage - ok it can get u standstill which would negate this but the wish is the key card in some matchups as I mentioned above and it does the same as the enlightened tutor because u play the enlightened tutor in your sideboard. U can still play wish->enlightened tutor->humility for example.
This is all a regress in the development of landstill.
In todays meta I would try a single sensei to add consistency to your list.
Sorry for my delay in responding, I didn't realize the thread was exploding with posts again.
The Swamp: Are you kidding me? In a field where Mana Deniel is everywhere you don't see the importance of running basic's for the colors you play? I run 8 Fetch effects that almost always get the basics unless I have to get a dual. There are to many decks and way too many situations where the basic Swamp is critical for me to even start listing them. If you are playing Vindicate's my advice is play the 3x Delta and the Swamp.
The lack of Crucible: I play Ajani in place of Crucible, see my previous explanation of this for full details but in all of the match's where Crucible would have come in Ajani come's in instead. Ajani is also far more more versatile than Crucible and with the existence of Krosan Grip is in my opinion a far better call.
Mana Issue's? I guess you could defy statistic's and have problems dropping lands but it isn't happening to me.
Vindicate: I agree that the 3rd Vindicate could be a 4th EE but honestly EE is almost always a 1 for 1 and typically costs more Mana than EE. Vindicate will stay at 3 in my build because of the existance of Gaddock Teeg and it's capability to deal with opposing Plainswalker's or Lands. See my previous post about losing to Survival because a Teeg resolved and my STP's were Extirpated.
Humility: Really I have to play 2? I prefer not to walk into Krosan Grip for the loss but suit yourself.
Cut Dragon or Decree for Elspeth: No. I already see that it is very apparent we do not see eye to eye but no. That is my advice to everybody. See my very extensive post regarding Elspeth and Decree.
Wish or E Tutor: I don't run anything to tutor for other than Standstill in the MD and Halo in the SB, why again would i include this? I do miss Cunning Wish alot but after very extensive testing you see the list that I feel has the best results against all of Legacy. Wish regrettably is about a turn and a half too slow in my opinion. I strive for the highest level of consistency in my deck and that turn spent Wishing for anything did not in the end outway Vindicate. Not to mention the SB slots opened up by not running Wish have increased my match ups drastically against everything other than Ichorid. Since I don't ever "expect" to beat Ichorid with my build Wish is not the better call in my opinion.
Regress in Landstill? Seriously? Do you have any idea who I am? I have never been one to say I am some great player or any of that. I atribute my wins to not making mistakes and having good luck or not having terrible luck atleast, but that is a ridiculous statement. My lists start from the initial post of the first Landstill thread and continue from there. Excluding the 4 color deck whitch aren't present in this thread the majority of lists on here are derivitave's, either intentionally or not, of lists I have played and won tournaments with.
Single Sensei's Top for consistency? How the hell is one random ass Top going to add consistency to anything? I've already cut a Brainstorm due to what I consider it's subpar role in this deck. I would love to run 2-3 Top's in this deck but I would have to cut Brainstorm entirely and I feel that it would lower the Blue count too much. I don't think you wouldn't be able to cast FOW but I think the cards you would have to pitch instead of Brainstorm could very well cost you the game.
I don't mean to come off like i'm ranting in this post but the statements i'm responding too seem to entirely lack all logic. I typically have all the patience in the world and am more than willing to help other players, even new players who have never won with the deck yet but I don't know how else to respond.
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
konsultant
Single Sensei's Top for consistency? How the hell is one random ass Top going to add consistency to anything? I've already cut a Brainstorm due to what I consider it's subpar role in this deck. I would love to run 2-3 Top's in this deck but I would have to cut Brainstorm entirely and I feel that it would lower the Blue count too much. I don't think you wouldn't be able to cast FOW but I think the cards you would have to pitch instead of Brainstorm could very well cost you the game.
What's your recent list? You can PM me you like before or after an event if you like if you don't feel like posting your list in the thread atm.
I've cut a Brainstorm recently for a 3rd FoF. Fact or Fiction, is imo, the most underrated card in Landstill. I won't persuade people to play it because nobody listens to me. It's the shiz, really, but they seem to think making card advantage through Standstills and Brainstorms is enough. Like it even better when they side Standstills out.
At the moment, I'm tampering with the 4 Vindicate list but with a different Sideboard. My SB atm is
4 Counterbalance
3 SDT
3 Runed Halo
2 Ajani Goldmane
3 Extirpate
After some testing, running Counterbalance/Top might be the right move. I figured that my TES match up is getting much worse since their inclusion of Mystical Tutor and Chain of Vapor. I figured the solution is to run Counterbalance Top along with 3 Halos and 3 Extirpates to fight combo. Post-board against combo, it plays like Dreadstill without Dreadnought/Stifle. The game plans are the same though; concentrate on disrupting the opponent as you find Counterbalance/Top. You should be bashing with Factories every turn to make Ad Nauseam less playable after every attack step. My SB against combo is currently
-3 Wrath of God
-3 Decree of Justice
-2 Fact or Fiction
-2 Counterspell
-2 Swords to Plowshares
-1 Vindicate
+3 SDT
+4 Counterbalance
+3 Runed Halo
+3 Extirpate
The reason for keeping 3 Vindicates in is because LD is valuable against TES. Vindicate can also kill Moxes, Xantid Swarms and Vexing Shushers. So your line of play here is to drop Halo on Tendrils, then proceed to drop SDT and Counterbalance to protect Halo or just make a galore of card advantage.
Runed Halo > Meddling Mage mainly because I haven't played against ghetto Armageddon Stax yet. Runed Halo is also good against Team America, Dragon Stompy and Threshold-esque decks.
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
Go back a couple of page's and you will find my current list.
I too was in the same argument favoring cutting the 4th Brainstorm for the 3rd FOF. To many people use Brainstorm as a crutch and cast it at the first opportunity, few people utilize the card with it's full power in the mid game. For anybody that plays the deck like I do 3 is more than enough for what you need out of Brainstorm.
I drop Mage on Ad Nauseum and Halo on Tendrils or possably Chant. The Vindicate's definetly stay in the deck, the LD is typically game winning against TES.
With the Chainer's Edict's in the SB I don't need to bring in Halo against anything other than Tendril's. It would still come in against more random stuff like Brainfreeze or sometime's against decks like Skie's that can't get rid of it. I've toyed with Chant over Halo but for the time being it will stay with Halo.
Mage is the critical part of my Loam match ups and is a potential card for any mirror match's I run into. The one drawback that bugs me is the less than overpowering mirror match with this build. So far I have been falling back on play skill in the mirror to take my wins and as of yet I am undefeated in the mirror but my other builds have had much stronger mirror strategies.
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
konsultant
I too was in the same argument favoring cutting the 4th Brainstorm for the 3rd FOF. To many people use Brainstorm as a crutch and cast it at the first opportunity, few people utilize the card with it's full power in the mid game. For anybody that plays the deck like I do 3 is more than enough for what you need out of Brainstorm.
I've played match-ups where I cast T1 Brainstorm to draw out Daze against Thrash. If I successfully cast it, I usually tend to try and follow up with a 2nd U-producing land on the table to bluff Counterspell mana. If they do Daze it, then I do the same anyways if I have a U-Land so that I can the opponent feel as though Dazing the BS is a mistake.
I also play T1 Brainstorm against combo so that I can come up with UU on Turn 2. I even make this play against Zoo and other Aggressive decks. Against control mirrors or Thresh, I wouldn't mind being stuck on one U source.
Midgame, Brainstorm is simply amazing. I hate how players never stockpile their Brainstorms, especially with a fetchland on the table. I only cast Brainstorms when I have dead cards in my hand, if I'm looking for a particular card for a particular situation or if I want to capitalize on my chained draw cards.
How do you usually play Brainstorm anyway?
Quote:
I drop Mage on Ad Nauseum and Halo on Tendrils or possably Chant. The Vindicate's definetly stay in the deck, the LD is typically game winning against TES.
If seems slightly more difficult now because if you drop Mage on Ad Nauseam, then they'll just try and attempt to cast an LED/IGGy loop against you. If you employ this strategy, have you considered putting Duresses or the 4th Mage into your SB?
Quote:
Mage is the critical part of my Loam match ups and is a potential card for any mirror match's I run into. The one drawback that bugs me is the less than overpowering mirror match with this build. So far I have been falling back on play skill in the mirror to take my wins and as of yet I am undefeated in the mirror but my other builds have had much stronger mirror strategies.
Game 2, you always have the Wasteland + Extirpate play. This makes 4 dead cards in their deck and 4 great cards for your deck. How would you board against the mirror with this build and how would you generally approach the match up post-board?
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Citrus-God
I've played match-ups where I cast T1 Brainstorm to draw out Daze against Thrash. If I successfully cast it, I usually tend to try and follow up with a 2nd U-producing land on the table to bluff Counterspell mana. If they do Daze it, then I do the same anyways if I have a U-Land so that I can the opponent feel as though Dazing the BS is a mistake.
I also play T1 Brainstorm against combo so that I can come up with UU on Turn 2. I even make this play against Zoo and other Aggressive decks. Against control mirrors or Thresh, I wouldn't mind being stuck on one U source.
Midgame, Brainstorm is simply amazing. I hate how players never stockpile their Brainstorms, especially with a fetchland on the table. I only cast Brainstorms when I have dead cards in my hand, if I'm looking for a particular card for a particular situation or if I want to capitalize on my chained draw cards.
How do you usually play Brainstorm anyway?
If seems slightly more difficult now because if you drop Mage on Ad Nauseam, then they'll just try and attempt to cast an LED/IGGy loop against you. If you employ this strategy, have you considered putting Duresses or the 4th Mage into your SB?
Game 2, you always have the Wasteland + Extirpate play. This makes 4 dead cards in their deck and 4 great cards for your deck. How would you board against the mirror with this build and how would you generally approach the match up post-board?
I only cast Brainstorm when I need something or if I have cards irrelevent to my match, for example STP and Wrath against TES game one. Other than that I'll hold them for the entire game if I'm never behind. Typically there aren't irrelevent cards in the deck anymore so I don't have the need to replace anything in my hand.
I did try running 4x Duress actually but I wasn't pleased with the actual results. Sounded much better in theory, the problem is that Discard is an anti tempo effect being that you paid mana to do something that doesn't change the game state at all and your opponent while losing card quality is staying on par for card quantity and has zero tempo disruption on thier end. More or less it wasn't really worth it to tap the land and cast Duress, better off with Mage's and Halo's in my experience.
I don't play Extirpate or any Graveyard removal actually, thus the near impossable Ichorid match up. Too be honest though I didn't board in Yard hate against Aggro Loam to begin with so it didn't change anything in that strategy for me.
The mirror has to be one of the most complex match's in all of magic as far as i'm concerned. I can't really summerize but I mostly play a game of poker and try to outplay my opponent at every possable turn until the advantage is so far in my corner that they can't come back. It's far more important who you are playing in the mirror than what exact build they are running, as such your board strategy depends on what kind of player is player the deck more than what to do versus this list. I have the advantage of having a considerable amount of experience with the deck that tends to way heavily in my corner. In most of the mirrors I play I watch my opponents make mistakes and think to myself how I could have won if I were them. The only thing that can outway experience are the couple of relevent bombs in the mirror, ie Crucible or drawing all of your Decree's, but even drawing the nuts can be outplayed sometimes.
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
How can you guys sit here and jerk each other off over how awesome Brainstorm is, and how great you are at playing it, and still think it's acceptable to play less than four?
Brainstorm is probably the best card in the format, and it isn't even redundant. Put the full playset back into your decks, please.
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
I agree with Obfu freely, just play four. Also has anyone thought of SB chalice of the void? Chalice for one seems game over for ad tendrils since it destroys more than half their deck.
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
While citrus and consultant weel explained why they chose/are choosing to play 3 brainstorm instead of 4, why would it be better for you to play 4 instead of 3? simply because it's always been done so? We've never seen vendilion clique for example in landstill, nor vindicate. But both mossivo and konsultant gave very precise indications for their choices. Now one can agree or disagree, but with reasons, not simply for habit. The point they're questioning is that brainstorm should not be used any time we have an open U, and thus is not an early game card in itself but an amazing mid-late game card. (And it's confusing effect in that part of the game is really more powerful, i.e. when you cast a brainstorm in response to an opponent's key spell to convince him that you're looking for the answer you already got in your hand.) Thus, as for counterspell, say, 3 is the adequate number for a card that we want to play in a different stage of game than the initial turns. For my personal style of play, I prefer casting a t1 brainstorm in my opponent's first EOT, and then save the rest for other moments of the play. Especially, since I'm testing the list with jace, i often find of no use to waste them since I have a constant draw engine on the board, unless obviously i have real shit in hand and a fetch ready on the table. Cutting 1 for something would not be a crime for me too, especially because I am looking for the missing slot for a humility. The blue count on my list would go down to 19 (and less when I side out still/jace), that's still acceptable. But atm, I'm fine with the 4th brainstorm, even if it could be the 4th vindicate or another useful tool such as a monoruned halo.
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
sengirvmpr
I agree with Obfu freely, just play four. Also has anyone thought of SB chalice of the void? Chalice for one seems game over for ad tendrils since it destroys more than half their deck.
I know someone tested it a few pages back and said it was amazing against combo. I would quote it for you, but my post would get deleted. I think runed halo and meddling mage is enough to combat combo. You need sb slots that function against multiple decks. Chalice would only come in against combo and I guess mono-red burn while mage and halo can come in against any deck you want.
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
Brainstorm is terrible first turn, I do not see why you would want to do that. If you are looking for a spell to play on your opponents first EOT try Opt. Brainstorm is awesome on turn 2 with a Fetchland though. I would not use Brainstorm without a shuffle effect unless the situation really requires me too, but it's not the optimal play by any means. If you prefer casting a Brainstorm in your opponents first EOT that means you are not getting the most out of your cards and you are not maximizing your resource managment. That said, Landstill is a deck that requires the pilot to carefully manage all of the resources as the deck is just not a deck that relies on broken plays. If you mess up small things like this, it will add up and you will find yourself losing almost every match.
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
Well, I want to mention one point to casting brainstorm end of first turn:
I often use this as a setup spell for a 2nd turn standstill, when I dont have a standstill in hand. It really works very fine for me.
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
First turn brainstorm simply helps me to plan the next 2-3 turns (first turns are the most critical) and see what I can get, and also helps me to set up the manabase for what comes after. Also, helps me to see if I can afford hiding behind my still on turn 2 especially if I know the deck my opponent runs has more factories than me (and usually he becomes the lord of topdeck under my own still). It's exactly the fact that I play 4x that allows me to "spend" one for the set up of the first turns. It's my classic opening move, like my first pawn moving, say. Opt doesn't do the same thing, really not, nor ponder. The other 3 brainstorms are saved and played carefully, that's why I said that, in fact, 4 brainstorm are not necessary. But i like to open like this. Obv, this is a reasoning on the play, if I'm on the draw i keep open for snare and counterspell, there's no need to say it. Against goblins i keep open for sword, etc etc etc. Yeah, I would like it were an instant duress, but you know...:laugh:
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mantis
Brainstorm is terrible first turn, I do not see why you would want to do that. If you are looking for a spell to play on your opponents first EOT try Opt. Brainstorm is awesome on turn 2 with a Fetchland though. I would not use Brainstorm without a shuffle effect unless the situation really requires me too, but it's not the optimal play by any means. If you prefer casting a Brainstorm in your opponents first EOT that means you are not getting the most out of your cards and you are not maximizing your resource managment. That said, Landstill is a deck that requires the pilot to carefully manage all of the resources as the deck is just not a deck that relies on broken plays. If you mess up small things like this, it will add up and you will find yourself losing almost every match.
You're right the deck requires skill to play and that one should consider other options using brainstorm. But you are completely WRONG about brainstorm being bad first turn. If you had ever played landstill decks for any length of time, you would realize that first turn brainstorm is often the best play (period).
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Viscosity
You're right the deck requires skill to play and that one should consider other options using brainstorm. But you are completely WRONG about brainstorm being bad first turn. If you had ever played landstill decks for any length of time, you would realize that first turn brainstorm is often the best play (period).
Though I am noone to disagree with brainstorm/ ponder period I would argue that 2nd turn standstill break on your opponents turn is a much stronger play then 1st turn brainstorm :).
Or even a 4th turn rot opponents turn FOF 4-1 split where you take the four would be stronger :).
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Viscosity
You're right the deck requires skill to play and that one should consider other options using brainstorm. But you are completely WRONG about brainstorm being bad first turn. If you had ever played landstill decks for any length of time, you would realize that first turn brainstorm is often the best play (period).
You are just wasting your resources. Like I said in my post, sometimes you have to spend your Brainstorm turn 1 to hit your landdrop or you need to dig for FoW. Only advise I give is not to use your Brainstorm turn 1 because you always do, it's not always the right play and in fact is a mistake a lot of the time.
