Re: [Deck] U/b/g/w and U/b/g Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
kiblast
And, what is better? Ghastly, diabolic edict or innocent blood? i hate sorcery speed removal since doesnt hit manlands, while the nonblack clause on ghastly can sometimes be problematic. Sure player targeted sac removal is useful sometimes but can be narrow sometimes...
I prefer innocent blood cause it's cheaper than edict, StP is better than ghastly for non-shroud due to it being non-conditional. I usually let my wastes and factories deal with their manlands, I take damage like a champ until I find them or Deed or StP. EE usually goes into my sideboard now.
Against Vengevines, the single best card against them is Extirpate, Ravenous Trap and Leyline are my second guesses. Perish is not an answer since they can finish you off in a single turn. K. Grip can also be a turn too late as they can dump their vines in the yard by turn 3. They can play around relic and crypt since they are not up against a fast clock. Just keep their discard outlets from hitting the table, but more importantly SotF.
Re: [Deck] U/b/g/w and U/b/g Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Deadweight
Against Vengevines, the single best card against them is Extirpate, Ravenous Trap and Leyline are my second guesses. Perish is not an answer since they can finish you off in a single turn. K. Grip can also be a turn too late as they can dump their vines in the yard by turn 3. They can play around relic and crypt since they are not up against a fast clock. Just keep their discard outlets from hitting the table, but more importantly SotF.
Extirpate is the best solution, Tormod's and Relics are just to slow them down if you don't have Extirpate and can avoid Mongrel/Aquameba->Vine, you can even try to stop their Aquameba/Mongrel/SotF , but if they hardcast Vines(no so dificult with Noble and Basics) and them start dumping 2 creatures you will need many boardsweepers and are getting 4/5 each time they do it.Even pos-SB I'm having problems if I don't find Extirpate for Vines.
About SB, people side out all 4 Standstills or leave some to get CA?And about Innocent Bloods and Ghastily Demise, do you leave just one or a split?
Re: [Deck] U/b/g/w and U/b/g Landstill
Tomorrow i'll have a small 15 man tournament. I'm new to this archetype, so i'd like to know what do you think of this list wich maybe is far from perfect. I've browsed this thread in the last days and i'm worried about some points:
-mana production, and denial. This manabase is correct? should i play wastelands instead of nantuko monastery? i'm forced to play the full set of tundras becouse i want to reach WW easily for elspeth midgame and i need W for early stp on ichorids and lackey.
-permission. 4fow 4 counterspell 3spell snare. I'm pretty convinced about the first 2 playsets, but i'm still in a limbo between spell snare vs spell pierce.I know it depends from the meta, but my meta is fairly wide with a majority of aggro/aggrocontrol,so i think snare is better.
-intuition: i mainly run them to get life from the loam late game, but i feel that often they are dead cards. Sometimes is a nice istant tutor for some counters or removal.In, or cut for some more removals/counter/draw?
-Engineered explosives. Running 2 of them means that i have to run 1 academy ruins too? i could split 1 academy with 1 nantuko monastery. Often i have to crack a pernicious deed only for a single Nimble mongoose while EE would do the same work for less mana. Is EE recursion necessary?
-sideboard: i'm expecting Goblins, Aggroloam, TES, elfcombo, Painter, Maverick, Bant Aggro, Canadian thresh, some random The rock mainly. I'm unsure about only 2 hydroblast. nihil spellbomb is very good as it combines the cantrip effect of a relic without hitting our grave like a tormod's.
What do you think?
Deck: Untitled Deck
//Lands
4x Mishra's Factory
4x Polluted Delta
4x Misty Rainforest
3x Underground Sea
3x Tropical Island
4x Tundra
2x Nantuko Monastery
//Spells
4x Force of Will
1x Life from the Loam
2x Intuition
4x Counterspell
3x Pernicious Deed
4x Standstill
4x Brainstorm
2x Engineered Explosives
4x Swords to Plowshares
2x Elspeth, Knight-Errant
3x Ghastly Demise
3x Spell Snare
//Sideboard
3x Extirpate
3x Nihil Spellbomb
3x Engineered Plague
2x Hydroblast
2x Krosan Grip
2x Perish
http://i.hbtronix.de/chart_pie.png Display Deck Statistics
Re: [Deck] U/b/g/w and U/b/g Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Deadweight
I prefer innocent blood cause it's cheaper than edict, StP is better than ghastly for non-shroud due to it being non-conditional. I usually let my wastes and factories deal with their manlands, I take damage like a champ until I find them or Deed or StP. EE usually goes into my sideboard now.
Deadweight, have you really found EE irrelevant enough to mitigate it to the sideboard? I can think of one match where I side my EEs out: Goblins. Against everything else in the format, it's amazing. Even with Deed, the ability to drop T1 EE at 1, T2 Standstill wins games. Also, having an out to a resolved planeswalker is tech. What do you do against resolved Jace TMD? Elspeth 1.0? Even Ajani Vengeant?
And why not replace 1-2 Innocent Blood with Path? It improves your game against Goblins, Fish, Madess, Zoo, etc. Innocent Blood is not terrible, but why run the full set in addition to swords when you already run white? IB is better than Path on the first turn of the game, maybe the second, the it's strictly worse than path from there on out. Is it a matter of black being the more important color over white? At the least, 4 Swords and 4 IB just looks to be overkill.
How have the 4 counterspell been in relation to the 4 factories and 3 waste? Can you reliably cast a turn 2-3 counterspell?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Shimi
Extirpate is the best solution
Bolded for emphasis. Extirpate really slows down Madness to a crawl. It makes it impossible for them to bum-rush you in a single turn and turns their deck into UG Bears + Counters. In fact, Extirpate is a back-breaker in a bunch of matchups. To anyone not running it, try 3.
Re: [Deck] U/b/g/w and U/b/g Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
kiblast
-intuition: In, or cut for some more removals/counter/draw?
-Engineered explosives. Running 2 of them means that i have to run 1 academy ruins too? i could split 1 academy with 1 nantuko monastery. Often i have to crack a pernicious deed only for a single Nimble mongoose while EE would do the same work for less mana. Is EE recursion necessary?
Intuition and Loam are dead cards early in the game, and in a meta where most decks win by turn 4-5, those cards serve no purpose in my opinion. Same goes with EE + academy recursion, i mean it's great when you can pull off the combo mid-late game but that is if you live that long. I think maindeck pierces are golden at the moment. Just my 0.02$.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mana Drain
Deadweight, have you really found EE irrelevant enough to mitigate it to the sideboard? I can think of one match where I side my EEs out: Goblins. Against everything else in the format, it's amazing. Even with Deed, the ability to drop T1 EE at 1, T2 Standstill wins games. Also, having an out to a resolved planeswalker is tech. What do you do against resolved Jace TMD? Elspeth 1.0? Even Ajani Vengeant?
And why not replace 1-2 Innocent Blood with Path? It improves your game against Goblins, Fish, Madess, Zoo, etc. Innocent Blood is not terrible, but why run the full set in addition to swords when you already run white? IB is better than Path on the first turn of the game, maybe the second, the it's strictly worse than path from there on out. Is it a matter of black being the more important color over white? At the least, 4 Swords and 4 IB just looks to be overkill.
How have the 4 counterspell been in relation to the 4 factories and 3 waste? Can you reliably cast a turn 2-3 counterspell?
I find EE as slow and conditional too and my approach was to have immediate response/answers instead that's why they're in the sb for the moment. Against a resolved Jace, I'll probably dig for my own Jaces and hope for the best. Against Elspeth/Ajani, I'll probably just scoop `em up. But then again I also have plenty of ways to prevent them from resolving.
I hate Path as it gives the opponent an additional land as a trade off. Path cannot handle Emrakul, Progenitus, and Iona whose favorite color is white or blue.
As for the UU counterspell issue, I cannot reliably cast it turn 2 but Force is always there and so are my snares/pierces.
This is my first time posting on this thread, so I don't know if what I'm saying here has been discussed before but I've been a fan of UBGx ever since and I'm just sharing my thoughts on my personal build.
Re: [Deck] U/b/g/w and U/b/g Landstill
After some testing and moving around this is the list I plan on running:
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Wasteland
1 Island
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Spell Snare
3 Spell Pierce
4 Force ofWill
4 Standstill
4 Pernicious Deed
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Life from the Loam
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Counterspell
4 Extirpate
3 Porphyry Nodes
3 Krosan Grip
2 Path to Exile
3 (Meta Slots) -> usually Blue Elemental Blast
After trying it, I do like Jace, but I also don't like dead draws. So I only include 2. Early game was giving me trouble, thus cut Counterspells for Spell Pierce and Snare. Spell Pierce has been awesome, I may even have to find a way to add the 4th copy. I'm thinking +1 Pierce, +1 Snare, -2 Counterspell. It's either Counterspell or the Divining Top. I'm leaning towards Counterspell right now, but counterspell has saved my ass in a number of situations where Pierce and Snare would have been too narrow. After reading this thread, Porphyry has improved all my aggro matches, I had forgotten about this card entirely and it has allowed me to streamline my sideboard a bit. I don't know how comfortable I am with deck yet, but part of why I picked it is the high learning curve paying off with increased effectiveness. Overall I am pretty pleased with this list though.
Re: [Deck] U/b/g/w and U/b/g Landstill
Somebody mentioned Porphyry Nodes/Drop of Honey a page back. It looks solid against Zoo and Fish. I haven't found room in my board to test it, but I'm curious if someone could explain to me what matchups you bring it in and what time you generally play it (i.e. Turn 2/Turn 3 etc.). Does the opponent generally play into it and race, or let it wipe the board and rebuild once it leaves play?
Re: [Deck] U/b/g/w and U/b/g Landstill
@ Mana drain
I bring in the Drops against Goblins mainly. It stops the early rushes until you can either take over with the normal stuff or Engineered plagues if you run those. I haven't had much problem so i don't use the plagues, but I can see running them both with all the tribal stuff, especially if you have Cat Zoo around. Goblins bowls into it and they have to keep playing into it or lose. You take a bit of damage since most of the stupid red duders have haste, but getting 5 to 1's is never bad. It's at it's best in that one. If you hate goblins, then try it.
It does work on Merfolk to a point. They typically will pull back and wait for it to die. They can't afford to keep dumping guys into it. So it's essentially an Innocent Blood + Fog for G. Not too horribly bad even in that case. Zoo does the same thing.
Zoo is the roughest one to me. I hate playing against it, mainly due to the POP's. I tend to board in a couple though since it's still worth a fog and a free kill most of the time.
The biggest benefit of trying it out is messing with people's heads and watching them read it over and over. lol
Porphyry Nodes is perfectly fine if you use White and have no problem using it on turn 1 or 2. That's usually the best time to drop it. It's the same thing, I just don't use white hence the Drops.
Also from that page back, the 7 colorless lands rarely give me trouble, though I don't really want them early unless it's a mirror. Wasteland / Loam is the whole mirror match so I want as many Wastes as I can get. Whoever get's it first wins that. I haven't had much problem piecing together my colors. I guess it's no worse than trying to do it with the white version except i can spare more turns to find red since I'm not going to cast that Spout before turn 3 anyway.
I just hate playing against Zoo, that's my reason for the red splash. I don't auto-die to it anymore and it's doubly useful against merfolk. They fall over and die when you plop a spout backed up with a spell snare or force on them.
Re: [Deck] U/b/g/w and U/b/g Landstill
I'm definitely trying the Porphyr Nodes. I'm going down to 3 Extirpate because I never side in more unless I'm playing Dredge or Lands, and we have other cards for those matchups anyway. So I'll give Nodes/Drops a shot. Goblins always ends up dropping Ringleader after Ringleader against me, and a way to slow them down a bit would be nice. Plus, we can always use extra cards against Merfolk.
Re: [Deck] U/b/g/w and U/b/g Landstill
I recently went to test the local legacy metagame in a tournament with this build:
// Lands (25)
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
2 Nantuko Monastery
2 Wasteland
// Spells (35)
4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Pernicious Deed
3 Fact or Fiction
2 Stifle
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Cunning Wish
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
// Sideboard (15)
4 Blue Elemental Blast
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Duress
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Extirpate
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Krosan Grip
1 Pulse of the Fields
Game 1 Merfolk (2-1)
Tough match up but I was able to pull through him overextending into pernicious deed game 2 by misreading the card and same story with EE game 3. Game 1 he rolls me over with counters for every spell I cast other than a turn two brainstorm.
Game 2 Ad Nauseam Tendrils (2-0)
Game 1 he wins the roll and goes off turn two with no duress and I stifle his fatal tendrils. Sb: +2 duress -2EE. Game 2 he has 2 duress's for me and an orim's chant on turn 3 to try and combo out but ponder misses what he's looking for and he scoops.
Game 3 Canadian Threshold (2-0)
He's running a weird build with grim lavamancer, burning tree shaman and not much permission. I steam roll both games resolving standstill/fact or fiction and a ton of removal. The deck simply can't deal with the card advantage.
Game 4 New Horizons (1-2) (ends up winning)
Very interesting build running 4 colors with confidants, goyfs, and KotR as threats and stifle, snare, pierce, daze, FoW for denial. In game one I mull to 5, he stifles 2 of my land and I have no chance after he resolves a knight. Game 2 we have a massive counter war mid game over a deed while he has goyf and knight on the board. It ends up resolving and after I take 9 in one turn the trigger resolves and he runs out of gas. I resolve jace and he scoops. Game 3 he continues to barrage my lands with stifles and wastelands. My stifle on a waste meets his spell pierce somewhere and I can't recover from his mana denial.
Game 5 Lands (0-2)
My absolute worst match up. Game one he starts tapping/wasting my lands until he can safely resolve a crucible and I scoop pretty fast. Sb: +4 leyline +2 duress -4 standstill -2 EE. I get leyline in my opening hand but I guess he anticipated it as he casts krosan grip turn two with mox diamond. Manabond comes next turn and he proceeds to win with life from the loam.
Overall I think the deck was great but cunning wish was a dead card way too often so I'm ditching the wish board. Here's the list I'm planning to test for next tourney (comments are appreciated!):
// Lands (25)
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
2 Nantuko Monastery
2 Wasteland
// Spells (35)
4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Pernicious Deed
3 Counterspell
3 Spell Snare
3 Fact or Fiction
2 Spell Pierce
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Life from the Loam
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
// Sideboard (15)
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Hydroblast
2 Duress
2 Krosan Grip
2 Pulse of the Fields
2 Stifle
Re: [Deck] U/b/g/w and U/b/g Landstill
Pulse of the Fields was the only reason I had a wishboard at all. Makes you want it main if you have the white. Cunning Wish was sadly not fast enough for me either. Sucks too since I love the Judge promo picture and I have 3 of them.
Re: [Deck] U/b/g/w and U/b/g Landstill
I've been tuning my sideboard for this build according to my local metagame...
// Lands (25)
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
2 Nantuko Monastery
2 Wasteland
// Spells (35)
4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Pernicious Deed
3 Counterspell
3 Spell Snare
3 Fact or Fiction
2 Spell Pierce
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
// Sideboard (15)
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Engineered Plague
3 Hydroblast
2 Krosan Grip
2 Stifle
This is what I plan to sb...
Fish -> +4 Engineered Plague -4 Pernicious Deed
Goblins -> +4 Engineered Plague +3 Hydroblast +2 Stifle -4 Pernicious Deed -3 Spell Snare -2 Spell Pierce
Countertop -> +2 Krosan Grip -2 Engineered Explosives
Storm -> +2 Engineered Plague +2 Stifle -4 Swords to Plowshares
Dredge/Lands -> +4 Leyline of the Void -4 Standstill
Various Aggro-Control (New Horizons, Vengevine madness (haven't seen this yet), UW Tempo, Canadian Thresh, Bant zoo) -> Nothing??
What do you think of this plan?
I was also considering Vindicate as a main deck option. It seems very flexible, dealing with problem lands and plainswalkers, but it might be too slow. I'd probably go +2 Vindicate -1 Standstill -1 Fact or Fiction.
Re: [Deck] U/b/g/w and U/b/g Landstill
I would always play path as my 5-6th removal spell. I don't care about giving my opponents land (other than goblins, they need the land). Path is my prefered removal of choice because:
1. Its instant, so you can path a 1 drop on the play and drop a standstill T2. Similarly you can path a big 2 drop on the draw and standstill on your turn.
2. It RFGs, hence making vengevine recusion a non-issue. Very important in today's environment.
3. It's targetted, making it better vs zoo, merfolk, goblins, tribal.
The downsides are:
1. Can't kill emrakul
2. Usually can't kill Iona.
I would play innocent blood over path only if I see alot of emrakul/iona. However we bust combo decks that spit out the above 2 monsters anyway, so I doubt I would play innocent blood. My 2 cents. Cheers.
EDIT: In today's survival combo infested environment. This deck is what I will play in any big tournament. We totally bust survival's ass. Every answer we play is good against them. For those in UBG, please try the white for STP and path, you will not be worried about vengevine recursion anymore. And seriously, we need as many swiss army knife answers like EE as possible. A control deck needs to be flexible, being slightly slow is a downside that we have to live with.
Re: [Deck] U/b/g/w and U/b/g Landstill
There's more chances now that you'll be facing Iona in a Survival meta, you'd be relying only on Jace if you skimp on IB.
Re: [Deck] U/b/g/w and U/b/g Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
galeng
I've been tuning my sideboard for this build according to my local metagame...
Fish -> +4 Engineered Plague -4 Pernicious Deed
Goblins -> +4 Engineered Plague +3 Hydroblast +2 Stifle -4 Pernicious Deed -3 Spell Snare -2 Spell Pierce
Countertop -> +2 Krosan Grip -2 Engineered Explosives
Storm -> +2 Engineered Plague +2 Stifle -4 Swords to Plowshares
Dredge/Lands -> +4 Leyline of the Void -4 Standstill
Various Aggro-Control (New Horizons, Vengevine madness (haven't seen this yet), UW Tempo, Canadian Thresh, Bant zoo) -> Nothing??
What do you think of this plan?
I was also considering Vindicate as a main deck option. It seems very flexible, dealing with problem lands and plainswalkers, but it might be too slow. I'd probably go +2 Vindicate -1 Standstill -1 Fact or Fiction.
I think you need some help on your board strategy. Against CB decks, keep the 2 EEs. They are another hard-to-counter out to counter/top, and CB decks run fewer threats than aggro-decks, so more removal is a good thing. Against Storm you should keep the swords in, because a T1 Xanthid Swarm/Dark Confidant beats you right then and there. Having an out to it is a good thing, and it allows you to Swords your own factories to mess up their storm math. With that list I'd side -1 Crucible -1 Fact for +2 Stifle and if you see Wish or Rite of Flame side an additional -2 Monastary -1 Fact for +3 Hydroblast. TES is by far the most common storm deck and hydroblast is an addition hard counter for you. Crucible is a do-nothing in this matchup and you don't need the 2 colorless lands for this deck when you have 23 others. Fact just does nothing until turn 4, so you side 2 out. Keep Standstill in and side out Facts and Crucible against Dredge. Dredge actually DOES have to cast spells to win, giving standstill the nod over the slow FoF. It will also help you recover from mulling to oblivion while trying to find Leyline.
I highly suggest you cut a Monastary for a basic Island. It may sound lame, but that little change is significant against decks with waste and a tempo strategy. Making sure you can cast a t2 Standstill is hot and it allows you to keep otherwise mana-light hands so you don't get blown out by a single waste. Also, you need more against Aggro-Control. UG Madness will just blow you out with a decent hand unless you get THE PERFECT HAND. Waste, Daze, Force, Spell Pierce, Survival, and t2 Vengevine all ruin your shit bad. Extirpate would definitely be superior to LotV in this case, and pretty much every other case barring Dredge. New Horizons/ UGx Tempo decks will just manafuck you hard. No basics,
8 colorless lands, no Tops, and just 1 Crucible is not enough. Spell Pierce is a hard counter against us and cards like Fact are not going anywhere in this match. I suggest more Spell Pierce in your own sideboard and the aforementioned basic Island change-up. If you can find the room, put a pair of Tops in the board or MD. It significantly helps the tempo match and is also good against other Landstill and random Eva-Green shit with discard.
Don't side out Deeds against Merfolk. Ever. It is the only board sweeper we have and is a damn good one at that. Every Fish deck I've played with Needle in the side puts them in specifically for this card. Drop it when you feel it can resolve and let it sit on the table. They will stop playing guys and try to beat you down with the ones they have now, allowing you to stabilize and eventually sweep there Vial, Mutavault, Lords, etc.
Fish also just doesn't care about Engineered Plague, unless you have two of them out. It basically reads " Prevent the next 2-3 Damage that would be dealt to you on your opponents turn". You need two to have any effect on the board state, and that means you have to resolve ANOTHER 3cc black enchantment, while dodging Spell Pierce, Force, and Daze. Deed is worth fighting to resolve, because a board sweep follows next turn if it resolves. Plague, not so much. The card is decent against goblins, but not even them so much now-a-days. The matchup it's best in is in fact Dredge, a deck we already beat without question. I suggest going for the third Path in the board and some Spell Pierces with something else of your choosing instead of the Plagues. It's just not relevant in the metagame.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Deadweight
There's more chances now that you'll be facing Iona in a Survival meta, you'd be relying only on Jace if you skimp on IB.
What makes you think your opponent would only have Iona without another creature like Hierarch or Fauna Shaman? Besides, Retainers/Iona is not a Plan A, it's a Plan B that sometimes works or sometimes wastes a turn of tempo and a card. They don't haul-ass to find Retainers and Iona every game, or even a third of games for that matter. I'd rather run Path to nail their Tarmogoyf, Knight, Fauna Shaman, or Gaddock Teeg rather than chance they won't sac their Hierarch/Birds of paradise/Pridemage to Innocent Blood.
IB is most definitely an answer to Iona and Emrakul, but a shitty, conditional one, that is inferior to Path in just about every match.
Re: [Deck] U/b/g/w and U/b/g Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mana Drain
I highly suggest you cut a Monastary for a basic Island.
Could you elaborate a little more on how one island can help you play around wasteland/stifle? I used to run 1 island back in the day when I was building the deck and it sucked pretty hard. Maybe I'm missing something.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mana Drain
Don't side out Deeds against Merfolk. Ever.
I completely agree with this. I felt that e plague was often as good as or worse than deed, even vs. countless stifles and needles. I'm probably ditching plague for some more flexible options.
On another note what are some thoughts on enlightened tutor in the 4c build. I saw someone running it as a 2 of with a package of: 1 explosives, 1 pithing needle, 1 sensei's top, 1 seat of the synod, 1 crucible of worlds, as well as standstills and pernicious deeds.
Re: [Deck] U/b/g/w and U/b/g Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
galeng
Could you elaborate a little more on how one island can help you play around wasteland/stifle? I used to run 1 island back in the day when I was building the deck and it sucked pretty hard. Maybe I'm missing something.
You're correct. Basic Island sucks ass 85% of the time you see it. But the times you need it, YOU NEED IT. Against Tempo stratagies (Team America, Tempo Thresh, Faries) Island allows you an untouchable land to ensure you can cast Standstill, BS, pay for Daze, and spin the top if you play them. You can't always expect to draw land when you need it, so having one that can't be messed with is a definite advantage when your digging for land. I know, I know, it does suck when you draw it against CB or combo. But it is awesome against some of our worst matchups: Wasteland+Blue mana denial.dec. I don't like playing it by any means, but when I fetch for it, there's a damn good reason. I think of it as a necessary evil.
Also, I am biased against colorless lands to a degree, so Monastary was my pick for the swap. This is landstill, so we run four factory as a given. Engineered Explosives recursion either wins the game(CB decks just scoop) or can get you out of a shitty situation, so I run one Academy Ruins. Everything else in my opinion is just unnecessary. Wasteland can be awesome sometimes, but I find that control would rather have a land that fixes my mana rather than set me and my opponent back a land.
Monastary is a colorless land that can beat, but only if you have the colors for it, and (most important here) only when you're already winning, the lategame. Factory can chump dudes or trade, and defend Jace when you need it. Monastary MAY be able to defend, but only in the mid-late game. The entire reason I play control is to have a strong late-game. I need something that can help me survive to see it, not POSSIBLY be relevant in the lategame. If you have success running it, by all means do. I just don't understand the point of the card in this archtype.
Re: [Deck] U/b/g/w and U/b/g Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mana Drain
You're correct. Basic Island sucks ass 85% of the time you see it. But the times you need it, YOU NEED IT. Against Tempo stratagies (Team America, Tempo Thresh, Faries) Island allows you an untouchable land to ensure you can cast Standstill, BS, pay for Daze, and spin the top if you play them. You can't always expect to draw land when you need it, so having one that can't be messed with is a definite advantage when your digging for land. I know, I know, it does suck when you draw it against CB or combo. But it is awesome against some of our worst matchups: Wasteland+Blue mana denial.dec. I don't like playing it by any means, but when I fetch for it, there's a damn good reason. I think of it as a necessary evil.
Also, I am biased against colorless lands to a degree, so Monastary was my pick for the swap. This is landstill, so we run four factory as a given. Engineered Explosives recursion either wins the game(CB decks just scoop) or can get you out of a shitty situation, so I run one Academy Ruins. Everything else in my opinion is just unnecessary. Wasteland can be awesome sometimes, but I find that control would rather have a land that fixes my mana rather than set me and my opponent back a land.
Monastary is a colorless land that can beat, but only if you have the colors for it, and (most important here) only when you're already winning, the lategame. Factory can chump dudes or trade, and defend Jace when you need it. Monastary MAY be able to defend, but only in the mid-late game. The entire reason I play control is to have a strong late-game. I need something that can help me survive to see it, not POSSIBLY be relevant in the lategame. If you have success running it, by all means do. I just don't understand the point of the card in this archtype.
i used to run singleton basic island, and i loved the fact that i could fetch it eot and have at least one solid land drop protected from wasteland. I'm currently running standard 25 land manabase, with 9 duals, no basics, 8 fetches and 4 mishra's + 2 monastery as manlands, plus 2 wastelands. Very rarely i'm screwed,although sometimes a singleton wasteland really mess up our plans... is good to always have that single mana wich could get you the brainstorm that saves the game...
So maybe i'll cut a single monastery (wich sometimes is useless for mana issues) for a basic island. Moreover, 99% of the times 2 monastery in play sucks.
For everybody else who play 25lands standard manabase: How could we fit a singleton academy ruins? i used to run that and as Mana Drain says, can really get us off from shitty situations. But how can we fit one in? considering that it is another colourless-non basic???
I also have noticed that many of you run only 4 spotremovals, and 4 pernicious. Currently i'm running 6-7 spotremovals, and 3 pernicious. What do you do if you're facing a lackey and you are on the draw? You can't always rely on FoW...i think we need AT LEAST 6 1CC spotremoval.
Re: [Deck] U/b/g/w and U/b/g Landstill
Personally I think that you shouldn't run more than 6 colorless+basics in 24, or 7 in 25. So, whatever you want to fit, should be in these 6 or 7.
Nantuko Monastery was a necessary piece before the printing of JTMS. The deck needed more win conditions, and needed to win in a decent pace, and Mishra's were too unreliable and slow. Thus, the monasteries. Now they're not strictly necessary, but I'd prefer to have at least one for quick beats. It did let me race Burn a couple of times.
I dislike ruins, because you rarely can fit it in your 6 colorless lands (I don't like cutting win conditions), because deck doesn't run enough EE, and mainly because drawing a card is almost always better than getting that EE. All in all, its going to matter so rarely, that it isn't worth running.
I'd run 7 spots (4 stp 3edict), 4 deeds, maybe 1-2EE.
Re: [Deck] U/b/g/w and U/b/g Landstill
We had a tournament at my friend's house last night, and we built a 4C list based off of the UBG list that did well at SCG.
His list didn't run wishes, but some other crap, I still like a small Wishboard :D
UBGR Landstill
4 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
1 Swamp
2 Island
4 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Pernicious Deed
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Firespout
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
4 Brainstorm
3 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
4 Innocent Blood
4 Standstill
2 Cunning Wish
Board:
4 Extirpate
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Echoing Truth
1 Tsabo's Decree
1 Back to Nature
1 Krosan Grip
0/1 Mindbreak Trap
3/2 Open
I've dropped Wastelands due to it being a 4 colour deck, and I'm really not try to Wasteland my opponent out. Also, Life was dropped because of this, but I'll see about bringing it back. I've dropped the Ghastly Demises for Firespouts, which will help me use my Deeds a bit more sparingly. As well, I've upped the counter-suite by 1.
I've dropped a lot of the useless wishboard stuff, keeping in the most useful items (many of you argue against Decree, but with this deck, you're getting to 6 mana most of the time). I've kicked up the grave hate about 3 notches, and will usually side in 3 Extirpates and leave one to Wish for. Not sure about what to do with the open slots, as I haven't done enough conclusive testing against enough archetypes.
-Matt
