except miracles mirror, against which decks do you usually side in all Geists?
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except miracles mirror, against which decks do you usually side in all Geists?
Against combo and control.
Does anyone run 4 tundras ? Are they needed ? Or is 3 the perfect #?
I've had good success with 2. Getting wasted early can really set you backQuote:
Originally Posted by kingsey
Manabase:
2 Tundra
2 Volcanic
5 Island
3 Plains
4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
2 Arid Mesa
Geists is a horrible blocker. Usually those slots are for either Geists or Mirran Crusader. People run him mostly due to Hexproof. If Jund and Burn are not rampent in your area, you should just run Mirran Crusader instead. Crusader works against BUG (as long as you counter Liliana).
I've also found two to be right right number such that I can find them when I need them but I am not very vulnerable to wasteland. Three could also be fine, but four seems actively bad to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tammit67
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Originally Posted by TaxMan
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Originally Posted by cschacal
Do you guys seriously think Geist is good? Every single time I've seen it played, it was horrible. It doesn't even make sense:Quote:
Originally Posted by twndomn
- Against a competent combo player, you tapping out on turn 3 for a dude that doesn't disrupt them at all is pretty much the combo player's wet dream. This is coming from a lot of experience with combo
- Against a competent Miracles player, they leave in Terminus because the only way they lose is to Entreat and bad sideboard cards like Geist. Oh, and they can just counter it and then resolve Counterbalance on their turn. Nice trump.
- Against Stoneblade, they have approximately infinite blockers (Souls, Stoneforge, Clique), have good lifegain (Batterskull, Jitte), and are the aggressors in that matchup.
- And obviously he's bad against any deck with Goyf, any deck that you might want to block, and any deck with Liliana. So...what is he good against?
Mirran Crusader is interesting, but has almost all of the shortcomings, but is also weak to Swords to Plowshares and Bolt (you know, the first and second most-played removal spells in legacy).
Look, this slot isn't a mystery. If you want to have cards to speed up your clock in combo, play Meddling Mage. If you want to protect your lock pieces from Abrupt Decay, play Meddling Mage. Hell, if you want to make sure your 12-post opponent can't play Repeal on your Blood Moon, play Meddling Mage!
The number of matches I've lost playing combo against any variant of UW control without Meddling Mage is so small in comparison to the number I've lost solely on the back of Meddling Mage. The card is terrifying.
I agree with mostly all of this. I can't understand why anyone would think that main phasing anything for more than one or two mana without affecting the game state is a good idea against combo.Quote:
Originally Posted by phazonmuant
The only thing I somewhat disagree with is against Goyf decks. In the past, Geist would be fairly horrible against any deck running Green, but since most lists are already running RiP, I think it's much more manageable to keep Goyfs in check. I don't much like Geist, but RiP definitely gives it more game against Jund-like decks.
I do like Meddling Mage a lot against combo. I've tried them against Abrupt Decay decks before and was unimpressed (although that was before I changed over to RiP). Jund can be a pretty rough MU, but Entreat is amazing there. I think 4 out of 5 games I win against them involve Entreating for 3 or greater.
Those slots are meant for Jund/BUG. Meddling Mage has been said and done by Joe Lossett/oarsman. Just read his article written earlier this year, and then look at what's in his SB after he wrote the articles:Quote:
Originally Posted by phazonmuant
Played by Joe Lossett. Top8 in SCG Legacy Open Las Vegas (Mar-2013)
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Pithing Needle
1 Sulfur Elemental
1 Sphere of Law
3 Rest in Peace
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Force of Will
1 Disenchant
1 Pyroblast
1 Misdirection
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
1 Entreat the Angels
Do you see Meddling Mage?
Not trying to discredit you, but I don't see MM in either Jack's or Alex's list either. Bottom line, MM has negative Synergy with Terminus.
As I mentioned before, Mirran Crusader is meant for BUG. BUG has no Red spells or StP. BUG's only answer to a Resolved Mirran Crusader is Liliana (some BUG version runs Jace, but not all). People run Geist is more for Jund, and most likely just end up blocking a Goyf or sacrificing it to Liliana anyhow.
Yeah, as twndomn noticed I gave up on the Meddling Mage plan against Abrupt Decay. Mages are still good against most combo decks, but that isn't enough for me right now. This is the board I played at a GP San Diego side event.
3 Rest in Peace
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
1 Misdirection
1 Force of Will
2 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
1 Sulfur Elemental
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Disenchant
1 Pithing Needle
1 Entreat the Angels
Blue Blasts were added after I lost against Sneak and Show in the Vegas top 8. That deck is everywhere right now. The matchup is close, and Sneak Attack is far more threatening than Show and Tell. They also give me two more first turn removal spels for Goblin Lackeys.
... and here's the board I played to Top8 in SCG Atlanta (Feb 2013):Quote:
Originally Posted by twndomn
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Pithing Needle
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Meddling Mage
1 Humility
1 Counterbalance
1 Seal of Cleansing
1 Porphyry Nodes
2 Flusterstorm
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Vendilion Clique
Not trying to be a dick about it, but Meddling Mage has done well. I've read Joe's articles, and his reasoning is sounds but I still find the mage to be one of the best cards to board. Meddling Mage definitely overperformed for me in Atlanta, and I'm up to three copies. Maybe I just play against more combo than you guys seem to, but I would almost never leave home without it. Geist has negative synergy with Terminus too... Mage only stays in the deck alongside Terminus against goblins and elves, both matchups where geist would do absolutely nothing.
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Originally Posted by Dzra
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Originally Posted by twndomn
Right, Meddling Mage no good against Abrupt Decay, but I think the way to beat Jund is to load up on entreats and play things like misdirection and friends. (RIP helps too). Beating BUG (and to some extent Jund) for me comes down mostly to Blood Moon and having access to a combo kill with Entreat and RIP/Helm.Quote:
Originally Posted by oarsman
To me that seems like another reason to have Meddling Mage, but I do understand the applications vs goblins for builds without access to RIP / Field to lock them out.Quote:
Originally Posted by oarsman
--
In other news, I've been doing a lot of writing about the deck lately, and I feel like we need to have a good Primer up here. I'm happy to write one and discuss it, would anyone object to that?
I have read that article, and Joe's decision do have internal consistency. Joe is a great player and I have a lot of respect for his understanding of the deck. But you should take a look at that board yourself! It features a strong 0 Geists. I can't really speak to why Jack replaced MM from alphastryk's board (he pretty much said that he built from Brian's list), but I'm a bit wary of pulling inspiration from Alex Binek deck choices. I have a lot of respect for Alex's playskills in general - I heard good things from the WMC reports and I've seen him play well before. But when he was featured playing Miracles, it looked like he hadn't played it very much based on a lot of the small suboptimal decisions that he made. That definitely could be a wrong impression, correct me if so.Quote:
Originally Posted by twndomn
Also I'm trying really really hard to imagine a scenario where Terminus would be relevant and MM is in play. For example, against Sneak & Show, you're almost always going to name Sneak Attack, so if you ever need Terminus, MM would have to be off the table.
Joe - I can see how Blue Blast is a strong answer to both Goblins and Sneak Attack, but it looks like your list in general gives up a lot of points to combo. In SCG Vegas, it seemed like most of your losses were to combo - I know you lost to Koby playing TinFins but didn't really track the rest of the pairings. Maybe it's just not realistic in your build, but isn't Meddling Mage a strong enough answer to shore up those somewhat weak combo matchups? Combo has been doing fairly well recently, so it would make me nervous to play a counterbalance deck that doesn't actually beat good combo players.
Edit - alphastryk seems to have gotten his post in before mine and our posts seem to be saying the same thing :cool: lol funny how that happens
When playing vs a deck like Shardless BUG, which always finds an Abrupt Decay but doesn't have (much) other removal, Meddling Mage = win ^_^
Other BUG decks and Jund don't rly care much about MM.. But I learned that a matchup like TES is most certainly not a BYE, because you are slow and they will find that Abrupt Decay for your CB. Meddling Mage worked for me in matchups like that. Just as naming Sneak Attack wil be a pain in the ass for your opponent.
Is there some reason people aren't talking about Divert and/or Misdirection vs. all of the Abrupt Decay running around?
It's the perfect solution. You have the opportunity to actually *gain* card advantage by 2-for-1ing them if you Divert their Decay to one of their creatures.
Am I missing something?
Oh, naming decay vs combo deck using it as anti-hate (TES, Elves) is excellent, but not so much against things like Junk, Jund, BUG midrange, etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lans89
you're talking about a awful matchup anyway with all those discards and Pernicious Deed packed in...
imho we should route for a sort of plan B for that matchup like an alternative WC in SB (8+ cards change)
Divert, Misdirection, and Redirect have been tried. Divert quickly becomes dead because the opponent has enough mana to pay, Misdirection is a 2 for 2. Redirect is often hard to leave mana up for.Quote:
Originally Posted by MGB
The real problem though, as I see it, is that those cards are all so narrow. They have less value than I'm happy with in most other matchups, and Decay isn't the card you really lose to most of the time. It's unfortunate, but I feel like discard, Liliana, Ancestral Vision, Deed, Confidant, etc are what I actually lose to.
What do you think about removing the Supreme Verdict for an Humility main deck?
I don't know why you'd name Abrupt Decay against a combo deck. Naming a combo piece forces them to find an answer. If all you have out is a Meddling Mage naming their anti-hate then you aren't really stopping them from comboing. If you have a Meddling Mage (on a combo piece) and say a Counterbalance then they still have to find two anti-hate cards in order to combo. Having a Meddling Mage naming an anti-hate piece (like Abrupt Decay) with a Counterbalance only makes it so they can't use Abrupt Decay to destroy your CB. They can Reverent Silence, they can Wipeaway, and they can just play around it with cards like Turnabout, Time Spiral, and Diminishing Returns. If you have two hate pieces, make them have two answers.Quote:
Originally Posted by alphastryk
Even though I am not playing it, I like Humility a lot against anything with Show and Tell. The reason I run Supreme Verdict has to do with the difficulty of resolving a four mana spell against an aggro deck that plays both Daze and Spell Pierce. That is more relevant to my deck though. All the people with RIP main do not need to worry as much about RUG and BUG. Maybe in that case the swap would make sense.
Agreed, apologies if the way I stated that was confusing - you would only name decay / wipe away when Mage is the second hate permanent you land, usually along with CB/Top, another mage on a combo piece, or cannonist. Elves and TES, which I was thinking of when I wrote that, have very few outs to Counterbalance, almost just Decay. Usually, yes, you just name more combo pieces.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dzra
That makes some sense. With RIP I don't feel like I need another wrath against BUG and RUG, as RIP shuts down Goyf and downgrades Deathrite and Mongoose significantly. It's not clear to me that you even need a 4th anti-men card in the main of the RIP lists, but a Humility is probably a fine choice if you want one.Quote:
Originally Posted by oarsman
Elves can GSZ => Pridemage or Harmonic Sliver.
Yes, I'm quite aware they have other outs. We can actually counter GSZ or pridemage however.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zombie
Edit: While I'm thinking about it, has anyone else tried beating Liliana with a pile of Celestial Purges? Is it just too narrow?
PurgesQuote:
Originally Posted by alphastryk
Given the correct Meta, which is full of BUG + Jund + Goblin, then I don't think it's too narrow for Celestial Purges. My guess for not-running is that people tend to want to get more hosing in the SB as suppose to have a SB card to 1-for-1 opponent's card. People tend to favor cards like Humility, when resolved, does a lot.
MM
Speaking from personal experience, I used to run MM. Every time I do, I end up having to spend resource to protect it from being REB/Pyro-ed. This is the same reason I hate Detention Sphere and stick to Oblivion Ring.
Against BUG/Jund
I get another idea, if your Meta is full of BUG/Jund, how does Darksteel Myr sound?
what is usually your sideboard plan against Esper? do you keep whole combo in? what do you take in/out?
PurgeQuote:
Originally Posted by twndomn
Makes sense. I'll try purge out next Wednesday at my LGS.
MM
I can see that being an issue against red show and tell decks, but prettymuch nobody else has REBs that I want the mage against. If they REB him they can't REB your counterspell or vice versa. It's fine to spend resources to keep your man that prevents them from doing anything.
Darksteel Myr
It doesn't interact with Liliana, which is the real problem card in the matchups. I fail to see how it does anything at all actually.
I like the whole combo against Esper. RiP still has a lot of value and they don't have too many ways to interact with Helm or Energy Field. I've been boarding out FoW and Swords to make room for REB, Pierces, Venser, and Elspeth. I don't think Entreat is that great a wincon here. You should be able to win the Jace war and/or have enough counter magic to make Helm stick. Don't walk into Vindicate though.Quote:
Originally Posted by TaxMan
I've been trying one Purge in my SB for a while now and it's been really great. I've thought about bumping it up to two because it is live nearly 100% of the time against Jund, but it is fairly narrow not to mention that I don't want my Jund game to be too reactive. As long as you can deal with an early Liliana, the best way to deal with later game Lilianas is to just win with a big Entreat or Helm.Quote:
Originally Posted by alphastryk
Also, with regards to Show and Tell... is leaving in the Helm combo too cute? It isn't the worst to be able to drop Helm off their Show and Tell and just win. The downside being that it is a lot of space that doesn't do much if they go for Sneak Attack.
Concerning Purge....
It really has applications all across the field, these are the ones that come to my mind just now:
1) Jund --> Confi, Shaman, Liliana, Bloodbraid
2) other BG/x Decks --> Confi, Shaman, Liliana, Bitterblossom, Chains of Mephistopheles
3) Burn --> Goblin Guide, Grim Lavamancer, other random-creatures.
4) Sneak Attack --> Sneak Attack
5) Goblins --> all Goblins, mostly for Lackey though
What other applications can you guys think of? I really might test this as a 1-2 of...., though I'd prefer this card to be like REB/BEB - counter or destroy :D
Greetings
Do not forget Sulfuric Vortex.Quote:
Originally Posted by Einherjer
Also strong against Tombstalker out of BUG DelverQuote:
Originally Posted by Einherjer
I personaly keep combo in, it works quite good against show&tell. Just play early RIP and keep one open mana for Helm activation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dzra
against SneakAttack - they often try to play SneakAttack via Show&Tell first, so it may works too
Hello guys as a long time Miracle player I was thinking about taking this deck to GP in France next month. I was trying Helm version but I did not like it at all so I switched back to creature "heavy" version. I hope it is no spam - I was doing with this very well lately.
I like Batteskull a lot. Together with SDT it is the best card in the deck. Without Mystic I felt that tribal matchups were not very good (CB sucks, they draw a lot of card and they can be very fast) Batterskull forces opponent to overcommit and Terminus WILL show up since I play 4. I never really liked Entreat the Angels since I could never really find them when I needed.
Otherwise it is a standart list that should beat combo. To battle creatures and pesky permanents I have one EE maindeck.
I think 23 lands is the correct number since when we loose it is usually due to manascrew. (
I am not sure about sideboard yet. I like Blood Moon a lot. Against Jund, Maverick, tribal I want to exchange counters for Elspeth, Humility, Jitte kind of thing.
Miracle Blade
3 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Batterskull
3 Jace, 2.0
3 SDT
1 EE
1 Counterspell
2 Spell Pierce
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Terminus
3 Counterbalance
4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
2 Arid Mesa
2 Plains
5 Island
1 Karakas
1 Academy Ruins
2 Volcanic Island
3 Tundra (23 lands)
Side:
2 Pyroblast
2 Flusterstorm
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Blood Moon
1 Disenchant
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Rest in Peace
1 EE
1 Humility
1 Elspeth, KE
1 Umezawa's Jitte
All comments are welcomed!
You're pointing out the obvious, nothing new. The bottom line comes down to: Do you want to MD multiple copies of Rest in Peace? Perhaps you have not realized the importance of utilizing graveyard as resource or denying opponent to do so in Legacy. This is Legacy we are discussing here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Koplinchen
Esper-Blade uses Lingering Souls + Snapcaster Mage + Academy Ruin to fully utilize graveyard, unlike your version.
Rest in Peace fully denies graveyard, no more goyf, vanilla Deathrite Shaman.
These are not news; your Miracle-Blade simply takes middle-of-road, not utilizing graveyard nor denying graveyard effectively. No MD Rest in Peace? Play Joe Losset (oarsman)'s version. MD Rest in Peace? copy off any tournament winning list. That's your best bet.
Thank you.
I tried to play 3 Rest in Peace maindeck. I really hated it. It was awfully as I posted a few pages back. It is good in theory. But practicaly there are so many decks that do not care or care only a little, you do not draw it in time, they can destroy it - too clunky for me. I don't want to bash this version - it has it's pros - nothing personal (possibly I am wrong) but I just feel Snapcaster/Batterskull will do more. I wanted to know what do you think.
Unlike Esper - you have stable manabase, CB, Top, Miracle - you are better control deck and you do not care about grave at all.
Tom
If they are able to destroy it, it's still 1-for-1. If they try to target it with anything other than Abrupt Decay, you should be able to protect it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Koplinchen
So many decks that do not care?
Jund - Goyf, Punishing Fire
RUG Delver - Mongoose, Goyf
Storm - Flame from the past
Esper-blade - Lingering souls, Snapcaster mage
Nic-Fit - Volrath's Stronghold, Eternal Witness
Not to mention the obvious: gredge, reanimator
There're only a few frequently played decks that have little interaction with graveyard: Goblin, Merfolk. Even decks that run Emrakul (show and tell) have little interaction w/ graveyard. It's not "in theory" from your words, it's been tested in large tournaments such as SCG Open; and competent players, who actually post feedback here, are able to top 8 with MD Rest in Peace.
In your current form of Miracle-Blade, even with Stoneblade package, it's not a sure way to beat aggro match-up. Even against Goblin, Terminus does very little, smart Goblin players can just block Batterskull with a goblin token and sac the token to deal damage to you via Seige-gang, no life gained in that scenario. Smart Goblin player just needs to hold onto one Matron in his hand to rebuild post-Terminus. The benefits you've gained from Batterskull might help you against RUG Delver, but it's not sufficient to take you deep into a larger tournament.
I have played Miracle Blade before. That route makes you want to splash black to play Lingering Soul. Then you realize you are just playing a weaker version of Esper-blade.
You said it yourself, you want to be a control deck, with the match-ups I have mentioned above, in which Rest in Peace can establish board control, do you actually think that you can be just as effective without Rest in Peace and with Stoneblade alone?
You are missing quite a few cards from these MUs that are also affected.Quote:
Originally Posted by twndomn
The only MUs that I can think of where nothing is affected are the mirror, Show and Tell, MUD, Fish, and Goblins. Of those, Fish and Goblins both lose to Energy Field. (though sometimes you have to protect it from Goblin's REBs... but it's great watching them flip REBs to their Ringleaders...)
High Tide, Show and Tell, and MUD are the only MUs besides the mirror where I would board out most or all of my RiP... and Show and Tell is debatable because of the ability to instantly win off their Show and Tell if you have RiP and one untapped land in play and access to a Helm.
RIP is even fine vs high tide, as it limits them to 4 total tides, and they won't rebuy anything off of time spiral. Minor but not irrelevant. RIP always amazes me by how relevant it is even when you don't expect it. Legacy is very graveyard dependent these days, and if you don't maindeck RIP I would still pursue a trinket mage or enlightened tutor package with at least one maindeck Relic.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dzra
Edit:
I'm seeing Pyroclasm pop up in a lot of sideboards on TC decks, wondering what matchups that is for. Anyone know?
Yeah, it definitely isn't irrelevant, but I have enough additional combo hate to bring in that I can trim a bit of the fat. I'd much rather Entreat at the end of their turn anyways than try to tap 4 for Helm during mine.Quote:
Originally Posted by alphastryk
I would guess that non-RiP builds use it as an additional answer to most of Jund's creaturebase. It is also costed such that it can be Snapcaster'd back. I suppose it also has some game against Geist. Odd that they wouldn't just use Rough/Tumble though. Maybe being able to bring it in against Delver is more relevant than hitting your own Cliques. Either way, it feels unnecessary for RiP builds.Quote:
Originally Posted by alphastryk
Except SFM is a clock compared to RiP+Helm. Yes, RiP with Helm can win instantly, but that also means piecing both parts together. With the SFM/BS package you just slap down a Mystic and you're all set. Miracles loses pretty badly to 12-post because of a lack of clock. There's also the fact that Abrupt Decay affects the SFM/BS combination much less than RiP/Helm.Quote:
Originally Posted by twndomn
Both methods has their merits.
You are wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by DragoFireheart
Slap down a Mystic and you're all set? Are you kidding me? I've seen Goblin decks defeating Miracle Blade even with Batterskull on the table, post-Terminus. Is Batterskull powerful? Yes. Is SFM + Batterskull + Snapcaster Mage the universal solution in today's Meta? No. Top 8 a SCG:Open, or some 100+ participants Legacy tournaments in Europe with Miracle-Blade, then we'll re-evaluate.
Just because typical Miracle deck would lose to all those "rampant/abundant" 12-post decks, that does Not mean SFM package is the solution. If you Really want to put your opponent on a clock, you should run Geist, not SFM package.